rsa supporting e-scooters

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 10:59am

Macy0161 wrote: »

They're there and they're not being enforced. It would be better to regulate and just move on. Personally, I'm now of the opinion that every method that gets more people out of cars is a good thing overall for everyone, but particularly vulnerable road users like cyclists. If loads of escooters means less cars, it means less issues for cyclists on the road. More escooters causing more cyclists to use the road, is likely to increase infrastructure.

Talk of licences and insurance is a nonsense.

It also means a quicker journey for all the motorists who spend half the day sitting in traffic

magicbastarder · 27-10-2020 11:04am

Macy0161 wrote: »

If loads of escooters means less car.

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 11:16am

magicbastarder wrote: »

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

It probably is true in the short term as adults who have cars are not gonna give them up for something slower but in the long term kids who have yet to buy their first car will hopefully opt for a bike or scooter it we put the ground work in now.

That's going by studies done in other countries and yes some as wet and windy as Ireland

beauf · 27-10-2020 11:20am

All these suggestions have already been done, in other countries. I'm baffled why it takes us 3~4 yrs to reinvent the wheel on this. I suspect it because we don't have the man power, or motivation to enforce it.

beauf · 27-10-2020 11:25am

magicbastarder wrote: »

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

I think it requires a mindset change about how to get to work, and around in general. The speed advantages over crowded public transport are obvious. Moving people out of cars, who are happy being slow, if they have the convenience and comfort of their car, it always going to be much harder. You would have to make it very difficult to do the car journey, before people will switch out of them.

liamog · 27-10-2020 11:26am

beauf wrote: »

All these suggestions have already been done, in other countries. I'm baffled why it takes us 3~4 yrs to reinvent the wheel on this. I suspect it because we don't have the man power, or motivation to enforce it.

It doesn't take that long, we wait for the UK to regulate then we copy and paste. It's easier than using google translate to create regulations.

amadangomor · 27-10-2020 11:30am

Prick on one almost creamed me on a footpath few weeks ago. Was looking at some bees in a flowerbed on edge and walked back out and glanced him as I turned around while he was whizzing past me.

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

thebronze14 · 27-10-2020 11:31am

My main gripes with them are the lack of proper lights or reflective gear most of them don't seem to wear. This is particularly important with the hour going back and travelling back from work in the dark. I also see a number of my ex students on them at 12/13 years old and this is far too young to be on the road safely

liamog · 27-10-2020 11:32am

amadangomor wrote: »

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

The same comeback as if a pedestrian had ran into you on the street.
You'd have to take a civil case against them and they would likely be covered by public liability on their domestic insurance. Anyone who rents or has a mortgage should have home insurance.

Although today, while they are treated like MPV's you may be covered by the uninsured drivers fund.

ED E · 27-10-2020 11:40am

thebronze14 wrote: »

My main gripes with them are the lack of proper lights or reflective gear most of them don't seem to wear. This is particularly important with the hour going back and travelling back from work in the dark. I also see a number of my ex students on them at 12/13 years old and this is far too young to be on the road safely

12yo are totally capable of safely riding on roads. What a load of BS.

Macy0161 · 27-10-2020 11:43am

magicbastarder wrote: »

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

Yes, and while Public Transport is at such a reduced capacity, it makes you wonder what the delay is in regulating them.

However, once people see the benefits, will they return to Public Transport? One of the main excuses (and in fairness, in some cases it is reasonable) in people not switching to cars is public transport capacity.

I'd also agree with Liamog, that they could regulate the ones that go faster and for ebikes that break the current regulations. Both of which may still be more attractive than a moped (particularly in terms of storage).

I'm not holding my breadth, given the laws governing cycling are still in inches, feet and yards. But escooters are already at a critical mass imo, that it's too late to think they aren't here to stay at the same licencing and insurance regime as bicycles and ebikes.

silverharp · 27-10-2020 12:03pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

most people on scooters are in their twenties and probably the group least likely to be car owners or at least to be able to commute into the city with a car. So yep I'd say public transport is the alternative here.

AndrewJRenko · 27-10-2020 12:17pm

thebronze14 wrote: »

My main gripes with them are the lack of proper lights or reflective gear most of them don't seem to wear. This is particularly important with the hour going back and travelling back from work in the dark. I also see a number of my ex students on them at 12/13 years old and this is far too young to be on the road safely

What colour is your car?

amadangomor wrote: »

Prick on one almost creamed me on a footpath few weeks ago. Was looking at some bees in a flowerbed on edge and walked back out and glanced him as I turned around while he was whizzing past me.

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

I'd suggest that they should almost have insurance to cover all these incidents where they almost kill people.

Meanwhile, we have 100k-150k uninsured drivers on the road.

magicbastarder · 27-10-2020 12:19pm

beauf wrote: »

All these suggestions have already been done, in other countries.

any examples? i.e. what could we copy and paste?

personally, i think the two main things would be a speed and/or power limitation, and regs on lights.

Thelonious Monk · 27-10-2020 12:22pm

amadangomor wrote: »

Prick on one almost creamed me on a footpath few weeks ago. Was looking at some bees in a flowerbed on edge and walked back out and glanced him as I turned around while he was whizzing past me.

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

All of these stories are the same, you were "nearly" hit by cyclists or scooters on footpaths. But it never actually seems to happen!

beauf · 27-10-2020 12:23pm

thebronze14 wrote: »

My main gripes with them are the lack of proper lights or reflective gear most of them don't seem to wear. This is particularly important with the hour going back and travelling back from work in the dark. I also see a number of my ex students on them at 12/13 years old and this is far too young to be on the road safely

If it was a bicycle lights would be a legal requirement and more effective than Hi Viz. Bu they hardly enforce that anyway.

The problem is a lack of enforcement not a lack rules.

No point adding more rules that you won't enforce either.

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 12:31pm

silverharp wrote: »

most people on scooters are in their twenties and probably the group least likely to be car owners or at least to be able to commute into the city with a car. So yep I'd say public transport is the alternative here.

Round my way most e-scooters seem to be driven by kids. I imagine it's different in Dublin but I see no adults on them

beauf · 27-10-2020 12:33pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Round my way most e-scooters seem to be driven by kids. I imagine it's different in Dublin but I see no adults on them

Before march I only ever saw adults on them, commuting to work etc. Since the lockdown I only see some teens on them locally, but still a few adults. They've come down in price. So probably more affordable for teens etc.

beauf · 27-10-2020 12:39pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

any examples? i.e. what could we copy and paste?

personally, i think the two main things would be a speed and/or power limitation, and regs on lights.

Can't find a decent link. Too busy to look it up. Something like this.

https://www.bavariannews.com/blog/2019/07/19/electric-scooters-get-to-know-the-new-regulations/

silverharp · 27-10-2020 1:08pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Round my way most e-scooters seem to be driven by kids. I imagine it's different in Dublin but I see no adults on them

normally I saw them on roads going into Dublin 2 from Ballsbridge Baggot St area commuting hours and up and down the grand canal

ED E · 27-10-2020 1:11pm

beauf wrote: »

If it was a bicycle lights would be a legal requirement and more effective than Hi Viz. Bu they hardly enforce that anyway.

The problem is a lack of enforcement not a lack rules.

No point adding more rules that you won't enforce either.

Exactly, Gardai aren't even on top of disqualified drivers.

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 1:42pm

silverharp wrote: »

normally I saw them on roads going into Dublin 2 from Ballsbridge Baggot St area commuting hours and up and down the grand canal

Ya it's around estates I see them which I was guessing would be very different. The kids are awful ejits for jumping off paths without looking too which again I imagine is very different to commuting adulds

Markcheese · 27-10-2020 1:44pm

amadangomor wrote: »

Prick on one almost creamed me on a footpath few weeks ago.....

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

Pretty much the same comeback he'd have to you ,as if you'd slammed into him while stepping backwards into a cycle path ..
( And you're right to be pissed at the twit on the footpath )

rubadub · 27-10-2020 2:01pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Round my way most e-scooters seem to be driven by kids. I imagine it's different in Dublin but I see no adults on them

I only see kids on them around my house. On my commute I see adults.

If the scooters are allowed I wonder would they change the law on ebikes so they could be throttle controlled. The escooter laws usually have a wheel size definition so a throttled ebike would possibly not fall under it.

I also wonder if the scooters would be included in the cycle to work scheme, or if throttled ebikes are allowed would they change the law to include them.

Markcheese · 27-10-2020 2:01pm

It's going to require new regs to make the road legal .
I think some form of low age limit and rules of the road knowledge aren't a bad thing , as well as having to have some sort of oficial identification for the rider .... So a provisional driving licence fits those bills and it's already there now,and it's easy to get ..

The hi-viz , bike helmet and hopefully a back light more than 10 cm above the ground ( on a helmet ,or backpack ,or clipped on your jacket ) would help to make people more noticable on a potentially grey or wet day .. say it adds 40 quid to your start up cost ,
You're gonna be buying rain gear,a decent back pack anyway as well as your 500 euro plus scooter ...
The only reason I'd push for the above is I think scooters could and should become a major replacement for car traffic in urban areas , so hopefully thousands and thousands of them ... it'd be good to start off without a free for all , with loads of people having avoidable accidents ( not insurance accidents ,but life changing injury accidents )

Tax and insurance .. no thanks ... And I do get that making riders have some kind of licence would make would make others push for insurance ...

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 2:13pm

Markcheese wrote: »

It's going to require new regs to make the road legal .
I think some form of low age limit and rules of the road knowledge aren't a bad thing , as well as having to have some sort of oficial identification for the rider .... So a provisional driving licence fits those bills and it's already there now,and it's easy to get ..

The hi-viz , bike helmet and hopefully a back light more than 10 cm above the ground ( on a helmet ,or backpack ,or clipped on your jacket ) would help to make people more noticable on a potentially grey or wet day .. say it adds 40 quid to your start up cost ,
You're gonna be buying rain gear,a decent back pack anyway as well as your 500 euro plus scooter ...
The only reason I'd push for the above is I think scooters could and should become a major replacement for car traffic in urban areas , so hopefully thousands and thousands of them ... it'd be good to start off without a free for all , with loads of people having avoidable accidents ( not insurance accidents ,but life changing injury accidents )

Tax and insurance .. no thanks ... And I do get that making riders have some kind of licence would make would make others push for insurance ...

The lights will already be law same as with a bicycle and what colour clothes people wear is none of yours or anyone else business

Markcheese · 27-10-2020 2:21pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

The lights will already be law same as with a bicycle and what colour clothes people wear is none of yours or anyone else business

Well the position of a light counts too ..
And you're right the colour of someone's clothes is none of my or anyone elses business ... Unless it's decided by the powers that be that it is their business , and then it is ..
Which is what we're discussing here ...
Of course you can get on a bike , in urban cammo head to toe ,with no lighting ,and ride along a busy street on a wet winters fri evening and no one can tell you otherwise .. stupid thing to do though ..
and if when regs are being brought in to make to scooters road legal ,some safety gear was included ,I'd be okay with that ..

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 2:32pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Well the position of a light counts too ..
And you're right the colour of someone's clothes is none of my or anyone elses business ... Unless it's decided by the powers that be that it is their business , and then it is ..
Which is what we're discussing here ...
Of course you can get on a bike , in urban cammo head to toe ,with no lighting ,and ride along a busy street on a wet winters fri evening and no one can tell you otherwise .. stupid thing to do though ..
and if when regs are being brought in to make to scooters road legal ,some safety gear was included ,I'd be okay with that ..

No you can't ride around all evening as it is clearly in the rules of the road how many reflectors ,lights and what colour and position are needed on a bike and it also says when they are needed.
Maybe there is a lack of enforcement but that is a different issue.

As for urban camo should the government not ban all black, grey and silver cars then ?

buffalo · 27-10-2020 2:32pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Of course you can get on a bike , in urban cammo head to toe ,with no lighting ,and ride along a busy street on a wet winters fri evening and no one can tell you otherwise .. stupid thing to do though ..

A Garda can, assuming a winter's evening means it's after lighting up time. Lights are a legal requirement in that situation.

SteM · 27-10-2020 2:33pm

There is some functionality I love from this scooter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/taur/taur-the-electric-road-scooter

The forward facing position looks good but the rear light especially looks like a great idea.

tomasrojo · 27-10-2020 3:54pm

liamog wrote: »

It doesn't take that long, we wait for the UK to regulate then we copy and paste. It's easier than using google translate to create regulations.

I did read that we had a tendency to wait for the UK to write EU Directives into law, and then we based our incorporation of the principle on theirs. Guess that's over now!

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 4:12pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I did read that we had a tendency to wait for the UK to write EU Directives into law, and then we based our incorporation of the principle on theirs. Guess that's over now!

With any luck we just copy French law from now on

magicbastarder · 27-10-2020 5:09pm

i have a vague memory that my cousin wrote the irish regs on scuba gear, but that she basically just copied the UK ones.

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 5:13pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have a vague memory that my cousin wrote the irish regs on scuba gear, but that she basically just copied the UK ones.

Well tell her she done an awful job. Bloody scubists always swimming around slowly getting in the way of peoples boats, always dressed in black or dark colours and they don't even pay ocean tax

Thargor · 27-10-2020 5:15pm

People can whine all they like about mandatory helmets/insurance/tax/number plates/high-viz etc just like they've been doing with bikes for years but the minute the guards cant seize them people will do whatever the feck they want and best of luck to them, anything thats not a car is a plus.

I still dont see any advantage over a roadbike or a commuter bike though and plenty of downsides that you don't get with a bike. Inferior Speed/Range and no free exercise being the main ones. If you use one as a daily commuter how long will the battery hold a charge before you're throwing your €500-1000 toy in a skip? Cant leave it on the street or it will be gone.

beachhead · 27-10-2020 5:20pm

dastardly00 wrote: »

What have they got to do with bicycles/cycling?

They have 2 wheels and a motor and driver not always corpus mentis

is_that_so · 27-10-2020 5:25pm

beachhead wrote: »

They have 2 wheels and a motor and driver not always corpus mentis

Not compos mentis either!

ED E · 27-10-2020 5:31pm

Thargor wrote: »

People can whine all they like about mandatory helmets/insurance/tax/number plates/high-viz etc just like they've been doing with bikes for years but the minute the guards cant seize them people will do whatever the feck they want and best of luck to them, anything thats not a car is a plus.

I still dont see any advantage over a roadbike or a commuter bike though and plenty of downsides that you don't get with a bike. Inferior Speed/Range and no free exercise being the main ones. If you use one as a daily commuter how long will the battery hold a charge before you're throwing your €500-1000 toy in a skip? Cant leave it on the street or it will be gone.

There's actually one bit there that's a counterpoint. If youre going somewhere with only on street bike parking no decent bike is safe but a scooter may well be permitted inside. A scooter under your desk is infinitely safer than a bike locked to a railing.

If I thought they'd all only do 25kph I'd have little issue other than the rear lights position but we all know many will be chipped to run much faster.

breezy1985 · 27-10-2020 5:33pm

ED E wrote: »

There's actually one bit there that's a counterpoint. If youre going somewhere with only on street bike parking no decent bike is safe but a scooter may well be permitted inside. A scooter under your desk is infinitely safer than a bike locked to a railing.

If I thought they'd all only do 25kph I'd have little issue other than the rear lights position but we all know many will be chipped to run much faster.

What's the max you could get one to do with mods ?

And bikes are safe enough if you don't skimp on the lock

Mickiemcfist · 27-10-2020 5:36pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What's the max you could get one to do with mods ?

And bikes are safe enough if you don't skimp on the lock

They're even safer if you skimp on the bike!

ED E · 27-10-2020 5:37pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What's the max you could get one to do with mods ?

And bikes are safe enough if you don't skimp on the lock

Second point I disagree. Lads at ballaly Luas using angle grinders. No lock can sustain a cutting attack.

Depends. There are bigger ones that can do 48kph on the flat.

Macy0161 · 27-10-2020 5:45pm

Thargor wrote: »

I still dont see any advantage over a roadbike or a commuter bike though and plenty of downsides that you don't get with a bike. Inferior Speed/Range and no free exercise being the main ones. If you use one as a daily commuter how long will the battery hold a charge before you're throwing your €500-1000 toy in a skip? Cant leave it on the street or it will be gone.

Security - you can just bring them in your workplace, under the desk. Same at home, particularly apartments. And I assume a lot of the smaller ones you could probably do the same in a pub/ restaurant (under the table?).

There's also a cohort who don't want the free exercise - they want to go in their work clothes, and not bring changes. And then another few who it is an option for the final kilometer or two off some other public transport.

If I was city centre, I'd potentially use one both ends of a dart trip (park and ride to station, station to office).

Thargor · 27-10-2020 6:24pm

Not allowed inside the building where I work anyway even pre-covid, large American multinational. I doubt landlords will be too happy to see them propping up the bar or at the table in their restaurants any time soon either.

You can cycle in your work clothes no bother, you dont have to floor it, 20-25 kph wont have you sweating, have a look at rush hour in most European cities.

Bikes are allowed on the DART, Brompton or similar allowed everywhere and on all public transport. You'll have the Brompton forever and pass it on to your grandkids, again anything is better than a car but they're expensive and they just dont last, they're basically disposable, I dont understand the appeal.

rubadub · 27-10-2020 6:47pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What's the max you could get one to do with mods ?

80km/h or more, it depends on the model of course, and the weight of the person.

rubadub wrote: »

yep, and they do not all look like crazy souped up yokes either
https://www.zawione-group.de/elektroscooter/forca-evoking-3-7-vgt-rs-iii-1800-watt-highpower-edition/a-5002651

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dualtron-Thunder-5400-Watts-Electric-Minimotors/dp/B081P35L43/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Dualtron+Ultra&qid=1603820813&s=sports&sr=1-1

some do look quite different, the gardai seized one with a seat which was likely quite powerful.

think there are faster than 80km/h too.

SPEED SKATERS: Watch pair caught doing 80 km/h (50mph) on electric scooter in Spain

magicbastarder · 27-10-2020 6:54pm

Thargor wrote: »

I still dont see any advantage over a roadbike or a commuter bike though and plenty of downsides that you don't get with a bike.

similar point to what others have mentioned - an ideal use case is 'last mile' transport.
a friend used to live about a 20 minute walk from the train station, and a similar walk at the far end when he got off the train, to get to the office. a scooter would have been ideal, would have saved maybe half an hour a day.

he was once given a battered old bike to cycle to the train station (coolmine) in the mornings. the bike was stolen on the very first day he used it.

tomasrojo · 27-10-2020 7:27pm

It probably all depends on how you intend to travel. I like having the option of locking my bike in the street, since I stop at shops all the time after work, and bringing a scooter in with me everywhere would start to annoy me. I'm fairly sure of this, because I finally gave up on the idea of never locking my Brompton outside, because I got so fed up carrying it around shops.

It does seem that you can't repair e-scooters in a modular fashion and they are poorly water-proofed (based on a comparison done in a Belgian magazine, which was quite damning). I'd like to see that rectified so people get longer out of them.

If I wanted a low-sweat, bring-it-into-the-office option and money were no object, I'd get a e-Brompton. But they are very expensive.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 27-10-2020 10:59pm

I'm all for them as long as we can clothesline anyone using them on footpaths.

AGS should encourage this.

TheChizler · 28-10-2020 1:25am

I don't even massively mind them on footpaths, as long as they go walking pace near other people. I've pushed them on footpaths abroad and they have an unfortunate tendancy to jackknife and take out the shins of anyone in the viscinity, safer to hold them down with a foot.

beauf · 02-11-2020 3:04am

Another article on it.

They’re clean & green but still illegal as gardai seize 91 electric scooters

https://extra.ie/2020/11/01/featured/electric-green-scooters-illegal-gardai

LeeroyJ. · 19-10-2021 2:13pm

some very minor updates today: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/eb2a0-government-publishes-road-traffic-and-roads-bill-2021/

Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan TD and Minister of State Hildegarde Naughton TD have announced the publication of the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021.

The Bill is a wide-ranging and significant piece of legislation and will deliver on key legislative commitments in the Programme for Government.

These include:

• E-scooters – a new class of powered personal transporters (PPTs), including e-scooters, will be created, and the Minister will be able to provide for the use of these vehicles in public places under existing regulatory powers.

rsa supporting e-scooters

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