rsa supporting e-scooters

Macy0161

rubadub wrote: »

So no crackdown or and I still have no idea why the gardai are at that spot where there is never an issue!

I've seen them at the Johnstown Road junction a few times the last few weeks. I'd hoped it was for red light jumping, as those lights are ridiculous for having green and still several cars crossing.

magicbastarder

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

it *is* legislated for though. driving a motorised vehicle without tax, insurance, or a helmet.
the problem is not that they are not legislated for, it's that the applying legislation has not been modified.

Chips Lovell

I think the problem is that they are legislated for, just not in the way their users would like. The definition of a mechanically propelled vehicle under law is:

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

rubadub

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

This is what was asked in the electric vehicle forum, some saying points were highly unlikely but I thought they were. Its an MPV, if all you had to do was have a vehicle that did not fall under legistlation I was asking if you could simply modify a car in some way that it was no longer defined as "a car" under law, and so you could get away with it. Or if forumla one cars are not legistlated for could you drive one down the M50 and not expect points as it "cannot be insured of taxed".

Macy0161 wrote: »

I've seen them at the Johnstown Road junction a few times the last few weeks.

I saw a garda stopping a car on the N11 at cornelscourt this morning, in the empty bus lane and traffic was moving just fine, no need for the car to have been in it. Then at whites cross there was no garda again, I counted 22 cars in the lane before the broken line, so I reckon I have seen up to 60 cars in that lane before. And these certainly ARE a hazard as a few weeks ago I saw a ambulance struggling to get through them all, they all had to drive up onto the cyclepath.

beauf

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

That's more than you get for speeding in a car. Jobsworth

If you decided to build a rocket powered sofa and use it on the road, it would be a problem. There has to be "catch all" legally for something like that.

magicbastarder

i wonder if i was to try to commute on one of Theo Jansen's Strandebeests, what vehicle category would that fall into? damn hard to steer the things though.

beauf

We should all have these...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTgLnUgzZYk

CramCycle

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

It is legislated for though, as Chips said. What it needs is an exception which has of yet, to be provided.

That's more than you get for speeding in a car. Jobsworth

Which is the bigger issue I suppose although I imagine the €300 was not for one offence, and hte judge would have to be careful that if he handeed less then, some legal arsehole might say well, no tax/insurance etc. should only be €300 and some penalty points.

Case in point, there is an electric scooter on my commute, see him more and more, he rides in the bike lane, occasionally goes onto the footpath to get round slower cyclists. The issue here is optics, he is faster than many scooters but he has also put a seat on it, so from an optics point of view, he is riding an electric moped. It is just as fast, but the only difference between him and a scooter is that he sits down which arguably makes him more balanced Therefore, if we are OK with scooters, we should be OK with him. If we are OK with him, we should be OK with emotorbikes, if we are ok with them, why do regular mopeds need any of the bells and whistles of tax or insurance and so on.

Until an exemption is made, the Gardai and the judge are correct, I don't agree with it entirely and it is good to see discretion being used by most Gardai but until an exemption is made, just be careful what you ant exempt as it needs to be clearly defined or else all hell breaks loose.

Another big issue directly related to this though is the delay from the RSA and the minister in acting to get any exemption through the Dail, whereas, as alluded ot earlier, autonomous cars are flying through to get testing and approved.

rubadub wrote: »

I saw a garda stopping a car on the N11 at cornelscourt this morning, in the empty bus lane and traffic was moving just fine, no need for the car to have been in it. Then at whites cross there was no garda again, I counted 22 cars in the lane before the broken line, so I reckon I have seen up to 60 cars in that lane before. And these certainly ARE a hazard as a few weeks ago I saw a ambulance struggling to get through them all, they all had to drive up onto the cyclepath.

Jesus, at Whites cross this morning, same thing, two ambulances, sirens and lights and not one person would move.

rubadub

Posted in another thread

AhHaor wrote: »

I'm struggling to find the case. He doesn't have anything linked and there's no other results when it's googled. Kinda odd.

I cannot find anything either, but can see no real reason for him to be spoofing. He is pro scooters so would more likely not want to be scaring people off getting them.

Fian

rubadub wrote: »

Posted in another thread



I cannot find anything either, but can see no real reason for him to be spoofing. He is pro scooters so would more likely not want to be scaring people off getting them.

It would have been decided in the district court, so there will be no judgment and no reported case.

As others have pointed out there is a specific exception for "pedal cycles" to take them out of the requirement to have a licence/tax/insurance, which has not been made for e-scooters.

Interestingly this means that if you are injured by an e-scooted you could claim off MIBI - so effectively your claim would be indirectly covered by all insured drivers through their premiums, in the same way as they cover claims against uninsured motorists in cars.


RSA website is clear now that it is unlawful to ride an e-scooter, not sure when that was updated.

Eamonnator

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sutherland-breaks-leg-in-electric-scooter-crash-at-israel-training-camp/

Be careful out there on your e-scooters.

unhappyBB

Another push for legislation:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/lime-seeks-e-scooter-legalisation-but-with-cap-on-speed-1.4126851

Thargor

Are the Guards seizing much scooters these days or are they ignoring them?

beauf

I think everyone's too busy to care.

A low cost eco way to travel especially when people don't want to use public transport or petrol stations. People will have tighter budgets. Yeah let's sit/ignore on that legislation for a few years.

CramCycle

Pretty much, they appear to be alot like cyclists and motorists. The majority of e scooter users are mannerly, safe and pose no credible issue. There are still a few who are Muppets but they seem to be in the minority.

silverharp

at the moment using public transport is being far more antisocial than using an e-scooter

rubadub

Thargor wrote: »

Are the Guards seizing much scooters these days or are they ignoring them?

I have noticed a drop in usage in my area & commute. There was 1 in my workplace and I no longer see it, a new woman also started who said he had one but no longer uses it for fear of it being seized -and how she would love to use it to save so much time. Another lad kept talking of getting one but the law put him off too.

LeeroyJ.

UK is fast tracking legislation due to COVID19: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/09/uk-to-invest-cycle-lanes-coronavirus-air-pollution

Since we often still look to the UK for decision-making this might be positive for them getting some sort of legislation over here too.

1bryan

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

UK is fast tracking legislation due to COVID19: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/09/uk-to-invest-cycle-lanes-coronavirus-air-pollution

Since we often still look to the UK for decision-making this might be positive for them getting some sort of legislation over here too.

hopefully not.

the days of following the UK in terms of doing anything, should be well in the past given their recent ineptitude when it comes to just about everything.

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

Thargor

Nothing wrong with scooters and cyclists mixing tbh, they're not that different, not to the point of needing separate road infrastructure anyway.

Stark

1bryan wrote: »

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

"They don't even pay road tax Joe!".

I suggest an emissions based tax like for motor vehicles.

1bryan

Stark wrote: »

"They don't even pay road tax Joe!".

I suggest an emissions based tax like for motor vehicles.

Why did you put that bit in quotes? I never said that.

Also, there is no such thing as 'road tax', so why would you be so naive as to suggest that there is?

1bryan

Thargor wrote: »

Nothing wrong with scooters and cyclists mixing tbh, they're not that different, not to the point of needing separate road infrastructure anyway.

not that different? LOL.

They need different infrastructure or else they should remain illegal.

marcos_94

1bryan wrote: »

hopefully not.

the days of following the UK in terms of doing anything, should be well in the past given their recent ineptitude when it comes to just about everything.

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

Please explain why e-scooters should have a tax system but not cyclists, or pedestrians while were at it

Id also appreciate if you could explain why you believe e-scooters require separate infrastructure too

1bryan

marcos_94 wrote: »

Please explain why e-scooters should have a tax system but not cyclists, or pedestrians while were at it

Id also appreciate if you could explain why you believe e-scooters require separate infrastructure too

why so you think pedestrians or cyclists should have a tax system?

infrastucture: because the speed and lack of visibility of e-scooters, on infrastructure that was not designed for them, presents a needless hazard for cyclists.

beauf

I don't see a problem with Scooters and Cyclists mixing if ridden responsibly. But thats a matter of enforcement.

That said I haven't had to share the road with many.

marcos_94

1bryan wrote: »

why so you think pedestrians or cyclists should have a tax system?

I dont think cyclists, pedestrians or e-scooters should have a tax system. Im asking you why you think e-scooters should have a tax system but not cyclists

infrastucture: because the speed and lack of visibility of e-scooters, on infrastructure that was not designed for them, presents a needless hazard for cyclists.

With regards to speed, the most popular e-scooter manufacturers and models (Xiaomi, Ninebot, GoTrax) are limited to 25-28 kph. There are of course models that can go faster but are significantly more expensive. I dont have one but do cycle and can tell you thats not a difficult speed to maintain while cycling.

With regards to visibility, again, the most popular e-scooters all appear to have in built front and rear lights. This is much better than bikes where lights are extras and a significant share of cyclists dont wear high visibility clothing, nor have lights on their bikes.

Please elaborate on how existing cycling infrastructure is inadequate for e-scooters. I dont think there is any reason why e-scooters are incapable of using cycle lanes or us lanes when a cycle lane is not available, as cyclists do at the moment

LeinsterDub

1bryan wrote: »

hopefully not.

the days of following the UK in terms of doing anything, should be well in the past given their recent ineptitude when it comes to just about everything.

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

Simple way to segregate cyclists , pedestrians and e-scooters removing the most space inefficient vehicles from roads that don't have space

LeinsterDub

1bryan wrote: »

why so you think pedestrians or cyclists should have a tax system?

infrastucture: because the speed and lack of visibility of e-scooters, on infrastructure that was not designed for them, presents a needless hazard for cyclists.

This is a typical nonsense argument from motorist ,

We can't have x until we have infrastructure for x.
Okay lets build it so .
No one is using x there is clearly no demand for infrastructure of x

ted1

marcos_94 wrote: »

Please elaborate on how existing cycling infrastructure is inadequate for e-scooters. I dont think there is any reason why e-scooters are incapable of using cycle lanes or us lanes when a cycle lane is not available, as cyclists do at the moment

Wheel size makes a difference, hitting a pothole or kerb with a road bike wheel is much more forgiving than hitting one with a scooter tyre