rsa supporting e-scooters

silverharp

if we were to get something of this bloody virus it would be making more space available to pedestrians and cyclists around towns and cities , e-scooters seem like a plus as a way to divert some people off public transport.

LeinsterDub

1bryan wrote: »

Basically, had the person who knocked me off, been adhering to the law, I would not have been knocked off.

Can't you say that about a massive amount of RTAs? Very rarely is an accident caused by two faultless and law-abiding parties

Eamonnator

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can't you say that about a massive amount of RTCs? Very rarely is a collision caused by two faultless and law-abiding parties

FYP

magicbastarder

silverharp wrote: »

e-scooters seem like a plus as a way to divert some people off public transport.

this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.

LeinsterDub

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.

Our PT was over crowded this is a good thing. Obviously in terms of personal health getting people to walk or cycle is the ideal but we needed to encourage a model shift from PT to PEV/bike/walking so that PT was more viable for those can't switch

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Our PT was over crowded this is a good thing. Obviously in terms of personal health getting people to walk or cycle is the ideal but we needed to encourage a model shift from PT to PEV/bike/walking so that PT was more viable for those can't switch

The negative was that PT was so poorly invested in that the capacity was never where it was needed, or frequency where it should have been, a failure on both fronts that it should have covered. Escooters were a personal soultion for a small percentage of PT users and not really the issue.

Thargor

1bryan wrote: »

not that different? LOL.

They need different infrastructure or else they should remain illegal.

Yes not that different as I said, same speeds, same amount of road space consumed, same road position, same utterly minuscule level of danger to other road users, same list of advantages as long as your arm in removing a car from the road...

Laughable to call for separate infrastructure between them, how do you feel about Nissan Micras vs articulated lorries? Honda 50s vs double decker buses?

liamog

One of the issues that the NTA were concerened about is that e-scooters would move users from public transport to scooters. If more people start using cycle lanes because they are now allowed to use a scoooter, then thats an increase in the share of the electorate who's votes can be bought by investment in good personal mobility infrastructure (i.e. cycle lanes).

I think most people who want to see these legalised are happy with approx 25 km/h for unrestricted use. I'm not sure what mandatory training is meant to achieve. We let cyclists on the roads with no training, the low powered scooters are no different.

1bryan

magicbastarder wrote: »

your initial refusal to accept regulation as a good idea seems to stem from the belief that 'regulation' would involve blanket rubber stamping of their use, if i understand correctly? because now you seem to be saying that regulation could be a good idea.

you are throwing out a generic term like 'regulation' without defining it, and are expecting me to agree or disagree?

I've said that some people have put out interesting ideas around regulation and would be deemed acceptable to me.

My skin in this game is, as a cyclist, I don't want cycle lanes congested with those with vastly superior acceleration or (in many cases) speed, who are poorly trained to handle the power at their disposal.

And no one will convince me that is unreasonable.

I see the 'gang' mentality creeping in here. When one can't be convinced by debate, gang up on them, that'll change their mind.

1bryan

Thargor wrote: »

Yes not that different as I said, same speeds, same amount of road space consumed, same road position, same utterly minuscule level of danger to other road users, same list of advantages as long as your arm in removing a car from the road...

Laughable to call for separate infrastructure between them, how do you feel about Nissan Micras vs articulated lorries? Honda 50s vs double decker buses?

e-scooters are closer to motor scooters than bicycles, imo. If regulated, they should use the same part of the road that motor scooters do.

A honda 50 is closer to an e-scooter than a bus is to a honda 50.

1bryan

buffalo wrote: »

If a particular action is illegal, it follows that the people doing it are more likely to be risk takers. Therefore, legalising e-scooters will lead to a lot more people using them more conservatively, and the amount of risky behaviour - as a percentage - will drop.

the proportion of risky behaviour - as a percentage - will drop.

the amount of risky behaviour, overall, will rise.

LillySV

There has to be better regulation of e scooters and bicycles... I watch numerous cyclists cycle through read lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle through pedestrian crossings without giving way to pedestrians... appalling carry on .... e scooters will be the same. Both groups should be given mandatory training to make themselves safer on the road ....should they be made wear bibs with registration number plate for the license holder also so they can be easily identified and reported for dangerous/careless driving.... I think so .... everyone should be accountable on the road. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

griffdaddy

1bryan wrote: »

My skin in this game is, as a cyclist, I don't want cycle lanes congested with those with vastly superior acceleration or (in many cases) speed, who are poorly trained to handle the power at their disposal.

So no electric bikes then?

mirrormatrix

LillySV wrote: »

There has to be better regulation of e scooters and bicycles... I watch numerous cyclists cycle through read lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle through pedestrian crossings without giving way to pedestrians... appalling carry on .... e scooters will be the same. Both groups should be given mandatory training to make themselves safer on the road ....should they be made wear bibs with registration number plate for the license holder also so they can be easily identified and reported for dangerous/careless driving.... I think so .... everyone should be accountable on the road. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

You're on a cycling forum. Can you please go somewhere else if you have nothing constructive to say?

marcos_94

LillySV wrote: »

. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

It’s been mentioned and discussed at length that e-scooters are no faster than cyclists. Bikes can reach speeds in excess of 30 kmh. Insurance would kill the use of e-scooters, especially here in Ireland where the insurance industry is so clearly broken.

E-scooters (and bikes) are light in weight overall and do little to no damage to road infrastructure, why should they pay motor tax? Most users will already be paying motor tax on their cars. Do you realise how small the proportion of money from motor tax actually goes towards roads? It all goes into a central pot which is then allocated to different areas

magicbastarder

mirrormatrix wrote: »

You're on a cycling forum. Can you please go somewhere else if you have nothing constructive to say?

mod note - no backseat moderation please.

LillySV - can you please read the charter of the forum, especially regarding negativity towards cyclists, and please go somewhere else if you've nothing constructive to say?
thank you

mirrormatrix

magicbastarder wrote: »

mod note - no backseat moderation please.

LillySV - can you please read the charter of the forum, especially regarding negativity towards cyclists, and please go somewhere else if you've nothing constructive to say?
thank you

Apologies. This one just riled me up and I couldn't figure out how to report a post.

beauf

marcos_94 wrote: »

It’s been mentioned and discussed at length that e-scooters are no faster than cyclists. ..s

There are some that are a lot faster.

The main issue here is the inaction of govt yet again on an issues that's needed sorting out for couple of years at this point.

1bryan

griffdaddy wrote: »

So no electric bikes then?

regulated e-bikes and e-scooters are not comparable. It is a separate argument. Regulated e-bikes have power-assist to a max of 25 km/h. E-scooters are fully self-propelled.

Regulated e-bikes, in my experience, have been a great addition to this city. Tbh, I don't see why unregulated e-bikes or e-scooters are needed at all.

1bryan

LillySV wrote: »

There has to be better regulation of e scooters and bicycles... I watch numerous cyclists cycle through read lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle through pedestrian crossings without giving way to pedestrians... appalling carry on .... e scooters will be the same. Both groups should be given mandatory training to make themselves safer on the road ....should they be made wear bibs with registration number plate for the license holder also so they can be easily identified and reported for dangerous/careless driving.... I think so .... everyone should be accountable on the road. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

apart from the registration for bikes, which is a whole other debate, I can't disagree with any of that.

Hurrache

1bryan wrote: »

apart from the registration for bikes, which is a whole other debate, I can't disagree with any of that.

I've, and I'm sure many here, have overtaken e-scooters. On the argument of speed being a basis for insurance requirements, should we have to be insured?

What if we promise to stay at a reduced speed, do we get freebies?

Do you 2 not realise that 'regulations' already exist, albeit not enforced as much as they could be, but not to the much more detrimental affect of not enforcing road traffic laws against motorists, who break road traffic laws to a much greater extent than cyclists?

beauf

1bryan wrote: »

...
My skin in this game is, as a cyclist, I don't want cycle lanes congested with those with vastly superior acceleration or (in many cases) speed, who are poorly trained to handle the power at their disposal.

...

No different to Dublin bikes with people having no experience jumping on them and not having a clue how to behave cycling in traffic.

E bikes have the same effect of getting people who were sedentary back out cycling. They will have accidents, just because there are more of them.

tomasrojo

1bryan wrote: »

apart from the registration for bikes, which is a whole other debate, I can't disagree with any of that.

Mandatory hi-viz bibs with registration numbers? I'm pretty sure I would continue to cycle, and after a month I probably would know the other eight cyclists around Dublin by name.

liamog

1bryan wrote: »

e-scooters are closer to motor scooters than bicycles, imo. If regulated, they should use the same part of the road that motor scooters do.

A honda 50 is closer to an e-scooter than a bus is to a honda 50.

Maybe you haven't actually experienced an area where legalised scooters and cycles are able to mix. They travel at approx the same speed as commuting cyclist, it would be somewhat dangerous to implement a system where we had a lane of bikes doing between 25 km/h to 35 km/h next to a set of scooters hogging the left hand side of a general traffic lane doing between 20 km/h and 25 km/h. Or perhaps your suggestion is that we move cycle lanes closer to the center of the road and allow the slower e-scooters to occupy the area closer to the curb as they are slightly slower than the cycles?

1bryan

liamog wrote: »

Maybe you haven't actually experienced an area where legalised scooters and cycles are able to mix. They travel at approx the same speed as commuting cyclist, it would be somewhat dangerous to implement a system where we had a lane of bikes doing between 25 km/h to 35 km/h next to a set of scooters hogging the left hand side of a general traffic lane doing between 20 km/h and 25 km/h. Or perhaps your suggestion is that we move cycle lanes closer to the center of the road and allow the slower e-scooters to occupy the area closer to the curb as they are slightly slower than the cycles?

I spent some time in Miami last year where there are 2 e-scooter share schemes in operation (uber being one, spin being the other). I witnessed someone crashing into the side of a parked car, and someone else clipping a pedestrian. The majority of e-scooter use there was on the footpath, not on the road.

So, I have experienced an area where they are commonly used. In that case the issue wasn't so much as their co-existence with cyclists, but in society in general.

The area I was in had a large university nearby. The majority of e-scooter users were college kids, and the scooters were the absolute bane of everyone else there.

1bryan

tomasrojo wrote: »

Mandatory hi-viz bibs with registration numbers? I'm pretty sure I would continue to cycle, and after a month I probably would know the other eight cyclists around Dublin by name.

Yeah, in general I wouldn't favour any barriers to cycling, within reason.

Registration would be something I'd resist, but would do it if I had to.

1bryan

beauf wrote: »

No different to Dublin bikes with people having no experience jumping on them and not having a clue how to behave cycling in traffic.

E bikes have the same effect of getting people who were sedentary back out cycling. They will have accidents, just because there are more of them.

agreed on Dublin bikes, but at least the areas they are in are somewhat confined. I have seen some crazy behaviour on them, and there is definitely an issue to be addressed there.

1bryan

Hurrache wrote: »

I've, and I'm sure many here, have overtaken e-scooters. On the argument of speed being a basis for insurance requirements, should we have to be insured?

What if we promise to stay at a reduced speed, do we get freebies?

Do you 2 not realise that 'regulations' already exist, albeit not enforced as much as they could be, but not to the much more detrimental affect of not enforcing road traffic laws against motorists, who break road traffic laws to a much greater extent than cyclists?

I think they're being self-propelled, rather than speed per se, is a compelling enough argument to require a licence, registration, and insurance.

Regulations do exist yes. They prohibit the use of e-scooters.

CramCycle

1bryan wrote: »

regulated e-bikes and e-scooters are not comparable. It is a separate argument. Regulated e-bikes have power-assist to a max of 25 km/h. E-scooters are fully self-propelled.

Regulated e-bikes, in my experience, have been a great addition to this city. Tbh, I don't see why unregulated e-bikes or e-scooters are needed at all.

They are very comparable, in fact every issue you have flagged with scooters is one that has been flagged with ebikes. Through very little regulation though, ebikes are somehow OK to you but escooters are not. Most ebikes and escooters have equivalent speeds, ebikes being faster in many cases. There are a few from both sides that are way faster, these are illegal for ebikes and should be illegal for escooters once regulation is brought in.

So, if regulations are brought in that are equivalent for escooters as the regs for ebikes, will you be okay with them? You asked for regulations but when I put up a list of possible ones you don't respond. My understanding is you won't give an opinion on potential regulations until the government publishes final regulations? Not much of a discussion site if you won't engage in the conversation. Imagine for a moment that I got to draft them, and I put these forward, what would you disagree or agree with if these were the final Government rules brought in.

- illegal on the footpath, gardai would sieze as well as issuing a fine for anyone using one on a footpath.
- they have a motor and are unaided, put an exemption to road tax and registration for those that are limited to a speed of 25kmph, and under a certain weight. Gardai as always can seize, like they do with bikes, if they feel they are being presented with false information.
- allow them access to use bike paths as an exception to other motorised vehicles
- all other laws in line with motor bikes and cyclists
- all users after readers dusk must have a front and rear light mounted on their person, at waist height or above. Failure to abide leads to a FPN like it does with cyclists.

I would love to hear a discussion other than your anecdotes as they can be applied to almost any vehicle type in a modern city from experience.

marcos_94

1bryan wrote: »

Tbh, I don't see why unregulated e-bikes or e-scooters are needed at all.

Thats your issue. It doesnt make sense to you why someone would want an e-scooter because you already cycle. I was considering an e-scooter for commuting because my commute is long enough and I didnt have access to shower facilities.

You must also take into consideration that some people dont like cycling and dont want to do exercise on their way to work, so an e-scooter offers an alternative mode of transport to these people.