The creeping prominence of the Irish language

07-10-2021 01:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986402#Comment_117986402

TV has certainly eroded elements of our culture here and accross the world. Most of it is hardly inspiring - 'bread and circuses' (grand designs...an exception :-) ) . Most homes in rural areas just got RTE 1 & 2 as far as I'm aware. City folk got the the other channels. You can see how culture (in general) is shifting with all the Americanisms picked up and used in English. Most stuff on TV is British/American - seems a kind of cultural bombardment and changes how we speak esp. kids "That's so awsome!" 🙄

I'm still gonna give a shout out here for Strictly Come Dancing. One of my favourite pieces of (mindless) cultural imperialism.

riclad · 07-10-2021 05:54AM

Most people in rural areas have soarview and at least a satellite dish with freesat, an old satellite sky box gives you acess to dozens of free channels, it 1, 2, 3, bbc 1.2,4 free no sub needed . I think most young people spend hours looking at phones using apps etc the chances of most Irish people suddenly deciding to speak Irish in daily life is very low since the pandemic started we have seen the importance of the Web for remote work education English is the language of the web

Try and get a job just only speaking Irish English is the language of work the Internet and business i know people in some areas who can't get broadband their mobile phone is the only way they can use the Web or maybe a 4g dongle linked to a tablet, laptop. I think the Irish language will always be strong in the Gaeltacht and with a certain minority of users

Our economy relys to a large extent on non nationals in retail hotels etc these people have probably little knowledge of the Irish language

whisky_galore · 07-10-2021 08:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986348#Comment_117986348

So pray tell, are you speaking irish everyday? Kids in a gaelscoil?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 08:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986402#Comment_117986402

In fairness, the quality of home produced TV programs has generally been very poor, regardless of what language it was done in.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 10:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986441#Comment_117986441

If you don't want to try a different perspective, I can't make you. But I can express the opinion that by trying a different perspective you gain a broader understanding - including understanding of the motivations of the good, bad and indifferent Irish speaking people of your acquaintance. I've no time for golf either; but I can state that with a really high level of confidence because I put many hours into playing it before deciding that it wasn't for me, just as I did with both GAA codes and a few other hobbies I can think of. But 'tis a busy life, and each to their own.

As a hobbie then, learning Irish holds no interest for me. I have been exposed to it a couple of times in my adult life. I've gone to a few Ceili nights where the language was a large part of the scene(because of a woman I was seeing for a while and my interest was more libidinous than cultural 😄). Just didn't interest me. TBH outside of an occassional listen to solo pipes I'd have no gra(loan word 🙂) for Irish trad music. So square peg in round hole was going on. Against my better judgement I did try golf too, but that was even worse. Linkedin on the links, populated by accountants, middle managers and the like. Necessary evils, but evils none the less. 😁

I agree my native speaker thing was clumsy on my part. It would be more along the lines of I already speak a native language of Ireland, why be tongue tied in another that's less native to me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986437#Comment_117986437

Oh there can certainly be an element of that alright and I have encountered that. Regularly from people whose parents or grandparents were from outside Dublin, which I found interesting. At least some of that in previous generations was insecurity and a distancing from what they saw as somehow inferior now they were "moving up in the world". Accents were another example. Many was the time I'd meet people's parents who would have very nice rural accents, but their kids were full on D4. On the other side of that you had some who hung onto the non Dublin thing while living in the place. I knew one guy whose hiring policy for his Dublin based company was slanted against Dubs. There was a definite rurul/urban thing going on in Irish society and in particular a Dublin/Rest of the country thing. You see it here on Boards often enough even now. The "Dublin is a dangerous hellhole" type comments and Dublin accents seen as ghastly. If you said similar about Cork accents you'd get some stick. 😁 (I do like a nice Cork accent I have to say). As someone whose family on both sides goes back to the egg in Dublin I thought it odd and though I had no real connection to Irish or GAA I never cared about it enough either way to disparage it. Plus gun to my head I'd rather watch a hurlng match than soccerball any day of the week.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986402#Comment_117986402

TV has certainly eroded elements of our culture here and accross the world. Most of it is hardly inspiring - 'bread and circuses' (grand designs...an exception :-) ) . Most homes in rural areas just got RTE 1 & 2 as far as I'm aware. City folk got the the other channels. You can see how culture (in general) is shifting with all the Americanisms picked up and used in English. Most stuff on TV is British/American - seems a kind of cultural bombardment and changes how we speak esp. kids "That's so awsome!" 🙄

Yeah back in the day it was pretty much only people on the eastern seaboard of the country got the UK channels, either with huge feckin' aerials or they had the "piped TV". The rest of the country was basically RTE. Even so and though me and my peers got UK TV, none of us had British accents or mid Atlantic ones from watching those channels. Even RTE had a fair number of bought in American shows, probably more than the likes of the BBC. My early childhood was spent watching things like Sesame Street and I didn't pick up the accent(though learned how to count in Spanish 😁). I also watched a lot of British kids programming and again didn't pick up the accents. I would reckon that mid atlantic thing is a more recent result of the internet and it being mostly American English. So people are more likely these days to say "store" rather than "shop" or "mom"* rather than "mam" or "mum"(UK influence) as examples and spellcheckers added more Zees over Sess's and so forth.

*apparently mom was a long standing thing in Cork, but it certainly wasn't in Dublin or Waterford. Now it's ubiquitous.

Furze99 · 07-10-2021 10:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986550#Comment_117986550

Depends what sort of job/ career you're looking for. No doubt that having a good level of Irish won't do you any harm if you're looking to work in the civil and public services here. Indeed that is one of the strategies of the language movement, to officialise the language and have the taxpayer pay to support a cohort of people who are Irish speakers. Understandable but I'm not sure if it's a great strategy in that if something is worthwhile doing, then it should stand on it's own legs and not need excessive state support. Otherwise it's a false & deluded position to be in.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 12:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987297#Comment_117987297

Like anything else it starts at home if parents spoke the language at home it would become ‘normal’ for people to speak the language. At the moment a person like yourself would not view an Irish language speaker (at any level) out and about as ‘normal’ but as an ‘Irish language enthusiast’. Which says a lot about how some view the language but that view the language on the fringes of the Irish language argument.

Which is an odd way of looking at it. There are Irish speakers of all levels in Ireland.

And have various levels of relationship with the Irish language. It is not simply ‘Irish language ethusiasts’

The problem is some don’t speak it anymore or or some speak it infrequently. But the majority don’t speak it as a community language.

The census from 2016 shows that 1.7m people around 40% of the people in the ROI claim to ‘speak’ Irish.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp10esil/p10esil/ilg/

In my opinion, If people in the ROI were serious about the Irish language (rather than dancing around the edges and creating veneers such as Irish language signage) there should be a revamp of the Irish education system. All playschools should become Nionrai. And all primary and secondary schools would become Gaelscoileanna. Give it a number of decades after a period of transition and see what happens.

It would not stop English been used by parents in the home. Even Blanhnaid Ni Chofaigh’s husband does not speak Irish at home although he understands it!

Kids are not prevented from using English outside school. But it will at least make Irish more fun for students in their school setting as the focus would be on the spoken word. Which is natural.

But as seen in ‘Lig Dom’ on the RTE player.

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/lig-liom/90131496385

Even kids brought up in Irish language immersion through school, revert to English with their mates outside school, But I wonder if the immersion at school level was more widespread would it happen less?

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 01:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987761#Comment_117987761

Unless I'm picking you up incorrectly you again seem to be making the assumption that many, even most Irish people are serious about it and actually want the Irish language as a community language. A century of its promotion and requirement in education and many careers in the past set against the precipitous drop off in its usuage in the wild would suggest they quite clearly don't. As you note kids who are immersed in it through education revert to English beyond the school gates. And they're obviously fluent in the language. Similar was seen when the civil service dropped the requirement to use it in the office, the majority dropped it overnight, and again they were fluent. What hope for those who aren't, or claim they use it because they know a cupla focal and tick the box on the census? If 40% of Irish people could actually speak Irish, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they don't. I mean, I can still get the general gist reading Irish. I can get even more of a gist reading French, Spanish and Italian, even Latin. No way would I claim to be able to speak any of them.

The Irish language has general support among our population and few would want to see it die out, including myself, but that support is at some distance and more likely given as lip service as Bearla. It occupies an odd relationship with the majority. A sort of cultural museum piece, the Book of Kells as a language. We'd hate to see it go and are proud of it and happy to say that, but we might only view it a couple of times in our lifetime.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 01:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987981#Comment_117987981

I think Irish people just need the push/encouragement. If you start at a very young age and up, At least there is some sort of deeper foundation there. Like the way Irish kids of Polish parents can effortlessly switch between Polish and English.

Ok, Irish might not be a community language, if all education was done through Irish.

But at least it would have a better foundation than at present. Also it would result in an attitude change as a consequence.

Which is what the majority of Irish people want - preservation of the Irish language whether they speak it regularly or not.

The Book of Kell’s is actually a great parallel to most Irish peoples attitude to the Irish language sort of a pride at a distance.

Just to be clear I don’t believe the majority of the Irish people want Irish as a community language. But they would at least like the Irish language preserved or like to have a better grasp of the language.

Such things as the official languages act 2003 actually annoy me if I am honest. Not in the same way it annoys the OP. Who views it as some sort of ‘threat’.

It annoys me because it is putting ‘the cart before the horse’ and pretending everything is ‘iontach anois’. When it is far from wonderful,

I have seen signage in Irish and English for a long time in public institutions libraries, public swimming pools and hospitals etc.

Ok, I can check on the word for ‘sauna’ as gaeilge. And even enjoy reading the rules/instructions going into the sauna as gaeilge - if I wish.

But how many others would do that!? Another problem I find there is a pretence among some in the Irish media that xyz has Irish. It happened in the last general election listing TD’s who spoke Irish. It annoyed me.

There was no analysis of their level of fluency. My Irish is nowhere fluent but I am at a level where I can tell if the TD speaking it is natural or bluffing/winging it. Whereas someone with little Irish listening to the latter might think they fluent. Basically codding the vast majority of Irish people into thinking ‘aren’t they great!?’

There needs to be a more solid educational basis given to Irish for a start. And have all Irish people educated through the medium of Irish from 3 up.

It does not make any sense that this has not been tried, There are loads of people looking to be primary school teachers and not enough jobs, To be a primary school teacher you have to be proficient in the Irish language.

They could move to either Irish play school teaching or secondary school teaching.

Will it make Irish a community language- doubtful IMO

Will it improve attitudes and knowledge of/to the Irish language - yes IMO

A much better approach in the long term than only throwing signage around.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 02:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988260#Comment_117988260

You're contradicting yourself there: you want to encourage people, but you want to force them to have their kids educated in Irish. You don't think they want it as a community language but you think they're willing to have their kids educated in it - at possible stress and detriment to said education - in order to achieve it.

Furze99 · 07-10-2021 02:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988260#Comment_117988260

You're quite entitled to hold that view, it's as good and valid as mine or any other citizen. I think though the truth of the matter lies closer to Wibbs summary above;

'The Irish language has general support among our population and few would want to see it die out, including myself, but that support is at some distance and more likely given as lip service as Bearla. It occupies an odd relationship with the majority. A sort of cultural museum piece, the Book of Kells as a language. We'd hate to see it go and are proud of it and happy to say that, but we might only view it a couple of times in our lifetime.'

Winding the clock back 100 years maybe in the case of the west or 2-300 years in case of much of Leinster is a pretty tough task. At best maybe being an 'Irish language enthusiast' is as good as you can expect. I'll play a few tunes tonight, a few reels & jigs and that's fine. But I don't expect my neighbours etc to have much interest, if they do well & good but the reality is that in most cases, their eyes would glaze over after a few minutes. Just not their thing.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 03:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988431#Comment_117988431

But you have to ask why there is this ‘odd relationship’? The OP of this thread seemed at a loss as to why they viewed Irish signage as a threat.

Ok, there are some on the fringes of the Irish population who view Irish as a ‘dead language’. Which is a throwback from over three generations ago when English was discouraged and Irish was viewed as the ‘language of the poor’.

On the other extreme there are others who correct every fada. Or want the Kerry car registration to start with ‘C’ Because there is no ‘K’ in Irish.

But there is a clear middle ground who are ‘untapped’ as regards the Irish language. It basically is a result of the education system in Ireland and extreme attitudes on both the fringes of the Irish language debate.

The example of music used above is a false one IMO. As not everyone plays music never mind a certain kind of music.

But everyone communicates. If Irish was the primary language of education mediums it would ‘unlock’ many peoples barrier to Irish.

As Ming Flanagan said the way forward is to have fun with Irish. Use/speak it. It suddenly becomes more relevant.

The use of the Irish language does not stop people participating in past time’s of their interest. In fact doing pastimes through Irish - improves Irish language levels.

If used correctly as a language naturally it can be used with ANY pastime, or event. That is the difference between Irish and a hobby such as music.

I know of one actor in Ros na Run. Who is born and reared with Irish. But bristles at being called a ‘gaeilgoir’. As it implies negative connotations, some of which already have been implied directly or indirectly on this thread.

I was informed that this actor thinks of themselves as an Irishman who happens to speak Irish.

That is the difference Irish is not supposed to be a cause or hobby. It is a language a way of communicating in a much different manner to English. A turn of phrase and way of thinking.

For many it is only waiting to be unlocked. It is just the approach that has been incorrect. Immersion at a young age in education would likely see a massive change in ‘the odd relationship’ for the better IMO.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 03:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986343#Comment_117986343

Because it is dancing around the edges a pretence. A sign in Irish although nice for some to see, and a curiosity for others does not solve the fundamental problem. Irish has lack of immersion and usage.

If the focus was on education through Irish from toddler though secondary school it would make much more sense. Ok it might not result in a Irish as community language, But it would at least give more of a solid foundation and could change mindsets.

Those Chinese lads have the right idea. Look at Confucius Institute in UCD. Education is key.

https://www.cii.ie/

07-10-2021 03:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986461#Comment_117986461

This is just a definition really. It is true that native language is generally described as that language learned at home. Historical language maybe a better fit.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 03:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988960#Comment_117988960

For the third time - you can not hijack education for the pupose of immersion and expect people to go along with it. the purpose of education is to educate, not help revive a language; and people want to see their kids educated in a stress-free manner.

07-10-2021 03:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987981#Comment_117987981

While all that is true, it's not really to the thread. The op is worried that Irish is becoming widespread because :

"My university now sends me emails that are bilingual - sometimes with the texts side by side, sometimes with the Irish text first - with Irish often appearing in the subject line. The signs for lecture theatres have just this year been replaced to include Irish. A new student space is called 'Zón Mac Leinn'.

The Dart now makes announcements in Irish first. Signage in Pearse Dart station has been replaced giving Irish more prominence.

All council signs, such as those relating to pandemic restrictions, are bilingual, with the Irish appearing to the left or above the English.

The Lighthouse cinema is running a festival called Samhain na mBan, which is celebrating woman in horror.

"

So the mere appearance of the Irish language in emails, more prominences in signs, announcements on Darts ( where its always been in Irish first as far as I recall). And he's even annoyed by a private enterprise - the lighthouse theatre - using Irish. I am sure it has used French for French movies before. Maybe even some movies were given their French title.

Can't say I've seen much of this. Now if Irish were to replace English fully I'd be gathering the posse myself.

ireallydontknow · 07-10-2021 03:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986169#Comment_117986169

The time has finally come to block you. Labour on in whatever delusions you like.

whisky_galore · 07-10-2021 04:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988260#Comment_117988260

There has been 'pushing' for the guts of a century, the beating, the cajoling, goodies and supports for ever shrinking Gaeltachts, Gaelscoils, the lame attempts at making it hip and sexy, and to what end?

It's funny that it's a thing that the majority of the population want, but not bothered about doing anything themselves on a personal level. Like the old Simpsons quote "can't someone else do it?" Can the govt not revive Irish for me so I won't have to break a sweat?

The kids of Polish parents will quite likely go back and forth to Poland where Polish is spoken from from top to bottom everyday and no doubt they'll use it to speak to grandparents with poor or no English. This is practical application, not a language as a museum piece to be dusted off occasionally.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 04:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988978#Comment_117988978

Changing a countries main language has worked through education has worked perfectly through other languages. Most notably English which used other methods as well as education but the point still stands.

The fact you view Education through the Irish language a ‘hijacking’ is revealing as to your mindset. It does not physically harm anyone. People are still being educated. It is just the medium which changes. From your use of the word ‘hijack’ it immediately becomes apparent that you are on a sort of fringe element of the Irish language debate - similar to the OP.

If there is a minority that would rally against fair enough. In my view it would help solve the Irish language problem at the moment while simultaneously routing out those, who are barriers to any attempt at improving spoken Irish in Ireland. You and like minded individuals could create privately run schools. While the state schools could be run through the medium of Irish 3 to 18.

Unlike you for instance a child has no baggage against the Irish language or odd hang ups. Has to be done at a young age and make it completely free. Real free education no voluntary contributions. Really stress free. Let it run for 20 years then review the results.

Much better approach than the farce/pretence of Irish signage.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 04:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989087#Comment_117989087

That's a huge part of the problem. That and the assumption by some of the Irish speaking community that the rest of their fellows would love to speak it if only we did [insert plan of action here]. It won't work. We have seen that over the last century of trying, the community use dropped consistently over that time no matter what resources, time, effort and money we threw at it over several generations. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Even today with the growth over the last couple of decades of education through the language, the kids revert to their actual "native" language outside the school gates. Kids are many things but they also tend to practical and honest and tend not to have formed biases based on politics of history. Indeed I would say if Gormdubh's idea of push/encouragment was attempted it would give rise to as much resentment as progress. The way many of us were pushed/encouraged to study the language in our formative school years certainly didn't help many, if not most. If it did we'd have a hell of a lot more actual Irish speakers today. And we don't.

For the hobbyists there's the other blindpsot, their understandable love for the language internal to them. It's common enough for those in love to feel others feel it too and if they don't it's only because they're not really opening themselves up(or there's something inherently wrong with them). There are lots of things I'd be enthusiastic about, but I would assume, or indeed presume that others would be equally enthused about them.

The Polish example also highlights another issue with the language. How would I put this? OK Irish is internally practical to itself. Its use is for many a much loved hobby(and nothing wrong with ithat), something internally and at times artificially sustained, even within actual native speakers to some degree, certainly outside the home. Polish and fully fluent Polish with it is externally practical in all aspects of life for nearly forty million people. Polish was under threat from Russian twice in the last couple of centuries and yet it didn't take among the Polish people. There's no real comparison.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 05:03PM

Note nowhere did I say ban the use of English. I have merely suggested that education through the medium of Irish is the simple and most practical/obvious answer from 3-18.

Plus have it heavily subsidised and incentivised. I realise that some of the minority like the OP would run scared.

But it is far more practical a solution than the Offical Languages Acts. It would achieve a change in mindset on the Irish language. Not just a superficial appearance.

It is the only practical way I can think of reversing centuries of negative attitudes towards the Irish Language. Which has lead us to the current no mans land.

Look at how Irish was treated historically as far back as the 1300’s

https://www.theirishstory.com/2018/10/11/to-extinguish-their-sinister-traditions-and-customs-the-historic-bans-on-the-legal-use-of-the-irish-and-welsh-languages/#.YV8QXyR4XYV

1367 Statue of Kilkenny - English people were barred from using the local language in Ireland. It was illegal for them to use it.

The Statue of Ireland in 1537 prohibited the use of Irish in parliament.

In 1541 the use of Irish was banned in areas of English rule

In 1737 Irish usage was banned in Ireland in the courts. There was also a fixed penalty for its usage on legal documents

After the Penal laws were repealed there was a further change.

https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/celtic-revival-in-ireland-irish-language/

From the link above -

‘When the law was repealed, Catholics were free to join the professions, so they had better opportunities if they spoke English.

Teaching English to children became widely popular among Irish-speaking families as they saw it as a requirement for their progress in life’

Hedge schools also resulted vim the decline of the Irish language among the poor.’

‘There were hedge schools in the Irish countryside that taught Catholic children who were unable to attend government schools that were Protestant.

‘English was one of the most requested subjects in these schools. So, the decline of the Irish language is partly the result of the Irish trying to speak like the ruling class.’

—

So my suggestion is merely a chance to correct the above through education. It is not that radical a suggestion to use Irish as the medium for education. It should be no problem to implement at Preschool and Primary level. Maybe a bit of teething problems at secondary level.

But give it twenty years and see what happens. For those parents who wish to opt out. Homeschooling is already permitted by law.

And there is nothing to stop individuals who do not from setting up private institutions of education in any language of their choice. English, Polish whatever. If there is enough demand. But the key is having state run schools completely through the medium of Irish.

Much better results are possible than any auld signage in Irish or a couple of emails.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 05:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989126#Comment_117989126

Again - you're contradicting yourself by assuming that everyone wants an Irish speaking community - something you yourself accepted wasn't the case.

Also, switching the language of an entire education system for hundreds of thousands of kids is not like like a light switch. How are you going to being in a a new syllabus for every subject right up to Leaving Cert? How are you going to recruit the teachers who can teach leaving cert subjects in Irish to the same standard as English?

Not every parent wants it and not every kid is going to adapt as easily as you think. They're not going to be "physcially" hurt - well, that's nice, but do you about other sorts of pain? Simple things like how will they get help with their homework in a language their parents don't speak?

Of course it's hijacking. You're main goal is the language, not the education. And certainly not the kids well-being.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 05:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989126#Comment_117989126

Changing a countries main language has worked through education has worked perfectly through other languages. Most notably English which used other methods as well as education but the point still stands.

Yep and in pretty much every case outside of modern Hebrew it was because of colonialism and force. Artifcially imposing a language change - and it would be artifficial and it would be forced - is hardly a great thing to repeat is it?

And it often backfired, like in some of the former Soviet Bloc nations where they tried that with Russian. It didn't take. The Spanish tried it with Basque and that didn't take either. We've already tried it here from the foundation of the state with compulsary Irish in education and in the past many careers and it didn't take. Where such impositions did take mostly again by conquest and in colonies like Africa and the New World with Spanish, French and English it took because the imposed language was already the language of business and higher education and art and power and the locals saw, had to see the practicalities. In the case of Hebrew it worked because they required a lingua franca for the new nation because of the Jewish diaspora showing up speaking a babel of languages from the nations they'd come from. At one point even German had been in the running, but for all too obvious reasons that died a death after WW2. Ireland and the Irish don't need a lingua franca they have one and it's the most commonly spoken one on the planet.

Unlike you for instance a child has no baggage against the Irish language or odd hang ups.

Indeed they don't and yet what language are they most likely to use beyond those gaelscoil gates? Those same no baggage kids know the actual score.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 05:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989338#Comment_117989338

It is not forced though merely incentivised to change a mindset. Outside the school gates kids may still use English, true. What with the American based internet etc, But at least it will me kids will have a solid basis of Irish spoken naturally at school. And over time over the decades Irish will be mixed interchangeably with English - more and more outside the school gates. It could take three generations. By sheer volume of numbers.

But it would be much better than the artificial way Irish is taught in English medium schools.

By right it should have been done since the foundation of the state. At the very least after the Irish civil servants rose through the ranks and replaced the British.

Irish signage in emails and stuff - waste of time on its own. All it does is unearth those who have an inbuilt bias against the Irish language regardless.

Such people can set up their English medium based schools if they wish privately, under my different suggestion.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 05:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989332#Comment_117989332

Note nowhere did I say ban the use of English. I have merely suggested that education through the medium of Irish is the simple and most practical/obvious answer from 3-18.

If you believe the majority of Bearla speaking Irish people want that imposed on them and their kids and it would be an artificial imposition. Put that to a referendum if you dare.

Plus have it heavily subsidised and incentivised. I realise that some of the minority like the OP would run scared.

The taxpayers would have to pay for that and we already spend many millions every year on the language, much of that is cultural window dressing and we've spent billions on it over the last century and here we are having this conversation as Bearla.

Look at how Irish was treated historically as far back as the 1300’s

Yep and yet it stayed in rude health beyond the Pale and even within it well into the 1700's. To the degree that for praticality's sake the English queen Lizzie the First ordered an Irish language bible to try and spread Protestantism in Ireland(and may have gotten a couple of lessons in the language herself. Unusual among that line of mostly inbreds she was bloody clever and was translating Latin and Greek texts in her teens and could speak a few languages). And of course people wanted to get ahead in a nation that was at the time "British". That's how languages change and often die. It's how Irish/Scots Gaelic swamped Pictish out back in the day. It's how Latin and its evolved romance languages did it. It's a mixture of the carrot and the stick. The stick being the laws against a language, the carrot the practical everyday advantages a language brings. The problem is your solution of "push/encouragement" for Irish doesn't have that carrot, it only has the stick and that's why it wouldn't work. It would be an expensive on a few levels top down imposed cultural experiment.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 05:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989404#Comment_117989404

It is not forced though merely incentivised to change a mindset.

They're weasle words IMHO. Incentivised, forced; bugger all practical difference between the two. Both are top down impositions on a populace, in this case for a language shift and bloody close to how English was "incentivised". As I say put it to a referendum and see the result. I'd be willing to bet the farm the result won't be one you'd like to see.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 05:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989422#Comment_117989422

There is no stick with my suggestion no banning of English. Just state education through Irish. Easily done at preschool and primary school level a proliferation of people looking for primary school jobs who have passed the Irish exam.

It might be more difficult at secondary level bar other languages as Physics, Maths etc are specialised. But I would argue that it would actually SAVE money in the long term. No more money thrown at the Irish language for the sake of it - such as signage.

Colonial reversal on the Irish language might not work 100% but it would do a damn lot better than the current half assed attempt.

Plus bilingual kids will be more amenable to European languages such as French and Spanish. I don’t really see any disadvantage long term. Other than a few disgruntled anti Irish language people. But as proven by this thread they are always some like that anyway!

Your idea of a referendum on it is a good one. Put it in the Irish constitution - the state shall provide free Education through the medium of the Irish language.

I would find the result of such a vote interesting. and accept any result.

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 05:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989332#Comment_117989332

Interesting facts re. language and laws - thanks!

RE: All Irish education 3 - 18 - Whilst education plays a big role in language promotion - I certainly wouldn't favor having all Irish education accross the board. I think, given the rise in numbers attending Gaelscoileanna it would make sense to have more All Irish Meán Scoileanna (2ndary Schools) available , should parents wish. This in turn could have a knock-on effect in 3rd level - whereby subjects could be taught through Irish. Many teachers are brutal in teaching Irish (still) which can hinder the aim of having the Irish language enjoyable and fun.

Ultimately it is up to parents/children whether to get all Irish education or not.

However, in all schools Gaeilge is part and parcel of the curriculum. This is a good thing ... if, and only if the teachers teaching the language have a grá and a grasp of it. I'd be inclined to have specialist teachers for Gaeilge (like they had for modern languages in schools ...before that programme was axed). Specialist teachers would at least teach the subject well and in doing so, the class teacher would be picking up teaching skills with regard to Gaeilge and could expand upon it's usage informally throughout the day.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 06:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989542#Comment_117989542

My whole logic of Irish language medium education 3-18 would mean Irish is not a thing learnt artificially. Just naturally picked up. So it is used in a normal fashion. Put a little toddler in a Naonri - play school they are like sponges learning Irish through fun and song.

Primary school will be second nature. And the child will only be speaking learning Irish grammar after they have their spoken language which is much easier.

Admittedly secondary school would be more difficult to find competent teachers in specialised subjects through Irish. But over time but would become the norm.

Speaking Irish constantly at school breaks lunch time sport = fun. Normal life conversations.

If the money spent on current Irish signage was spent on even just state Irish playschools over the last 20 ish years what difference would it have made?

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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