The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Snickers Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967292#Comment_117967292

Why? That's not what we have referendums for. They are to give consent to amendments to the constitution, not make popular, or populist, decisions.

Remember that clown that wanted to have a referendum on whether or not Roy Keane should be let back in the Irish team? He didn't have a clue about constitutional issues.

Either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEitwow6M6s

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974173#Comment_117974173

Agree, it's legislation, it doesn't need to be in the constitution as it ties the hands of all future governments. The act itself is a sop, but I'm happier for it to exist outside of bunreacht na heireann.

Earthhorse

The comparisons around the practical benefits of learning Irish versus Maths and English are always so rubbish.

No, you likely won't use algebra or trigonometry in your daily life again but you will use statistics and probability more than likely, if only to understand the world around you. You will certainly use addition, subtraction, multiplication and division a huge amount and understanding compound interest is useful to anyone who ever takes out a loan. So the basic, intermediary and advanced levels of the subject are all useful.

Likewise, you won't need to analyse a poem ever in your life again but if you can understand the sophistry of a character like Marc Antony you will likely be able to parse and interpret political speeches, manifestos, articles in the media, corporate communications as well as more informal messages from friends and families. Whilst this is a skill you might develop naturally there's no doubt as to its usefulness and some formal learning in it is justified.

By contrast, not only will you never parse and analyse a poem in Irish, you won't have any sort of sophisticated conversation or do any meaningful reading in the language; in fact, beyond saying "Hello", "Goodbye", "How are you?", "Can I go to the loo?", "Kiss my ass" and half a dozen other stock phrases, all of which I could teach you in a fortnight, you'll never use the language again. By all means, argue in favour of a revival of the language or what have you but Irish falls well short in the practical stakes when compared to English and Maths, regardless of how much you personally enjoyed any of these subjects.

Personally speaking it doesn't bother me too much if the Irish comes first on official documentation but I do agree it is a worse design decision from a practical stand point.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974173#Comment_117974173

:) Had a good laugh at that - so you are suggesting that the government should not consult the public on such matters and seek to find out what the popular opinion is??? For 'popular' try reading what the 'majority might choose'. Banana Republic comes to mind. We're supposed to be living in some sort of democracy, are we not?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975058#Comment_117975058

the forum for getting that opinion is not a referendum. you simply don't understand what a referendum is for.

Snickers Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975058#Comment_117975058

What ohnonotgmail said.

We have laws; we have constitutional ground rules. The constitution establishes rights and restrictions within which governments can legislate. eg We don't want the government to legislate for capital punishment: we can put an article in the constitution prohibiting it from doing so. And we did.

We want to permit divorce: we can vote to remove the article in the constitution that prohibited that from taking place. How the government legislates for that freedom and just what it permits or doesn't permit is down to the government to propose and the parliament to vote on whether to accept it or not. If you feel strongly about it, you lobby your TD to represent your point of view and if they don't do it...well there's an election every five years at least so you can vote to kick them out if you want to.

We don't need a referendum every time the government has to take a decision.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972870#Comment_117972870

I would not agree at all. Even if you never speak a word of Irish again you have benefitted from it. I see native English and Irish people trying to learn German here in Switzerland and in general the Irish people usually progress faster. I suspect the reason is that Irish people have already experienced the concept of another language - the concept of grammar, thinking in another language etc... the younger you are the easier it is to learn these concepts and use them when learning other languages. There are even studies that suggest children who encounter multiple languages at an early age have their brain wired up differently.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976502#Comment_117976502

Absolutly regarding the brain and languages.. but learning a language that would be of more tangiable benefit to you might be better... again i believe irish should be on the curriculum but not compulsory in the leaving...choice...students have to choice right now..

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976571#Comment_117976571

I think people forget that when you learn a language you are also learning about a culture. It comes part and parcel of the package. You learn French, you will learn something about France and francophone countries in the process. You master the language and you get to enjoy literature, TV programmes, films, job opportunities etc...

Same with Irish. You learn songs and rhymes in primary school that you simply wouldn't learn if they were in English. That's a good thing. You master the language and you get the same benefits as with any other language; literature, TV programmes, films, job opportunities etc...

Now imagine if some people on this thread got their way and Irish was not part of their education. They would actually leave school not knowing basic words about their own country.

A:Where does the president live?

B: Emmmm Arsene Hookterawn,

A: That sounds funny, I wonder was it named after some french dude.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973182#Comment_117973182

It isn't elitist, and it shouldn't be considered as such. But it is regarded by many as elitist, especially by people with a poorer background.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972965#Comment_117972965

I completely disagree. We need more mandatory Irish, not less. And life skills shouldn't be a matter for schools; they should be a matter for parents and guardians.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974153#Comment_117974153

Poor Tom and his fear. Many government agencies do actually produce information notices in languages other than English and Irish, particularly in Polish and Chinese. It would be good if more could do likewise.

If, in 50 or 100 years time, Irish makes a roaring resurgence and we become a bilingual society like the Dutch or Scandis, then the people who organised things like this will be looked at as the ones who kept the flame alive when it was needed most.

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976502#Comment_117976502

My experience is the opposite. The Irish I've met in Berlin have bad German and even worse accents. I've found English people much better.

Now that could be unrepresentative, but it's no less than yours.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973592#Comment_117973592

There are very sound linguistic reasons why the Irish language has primarily been influenced by the land and the sea rather than concrete, glass and steel. After all, during the industrial revolution that gave rise to most of our cities, the Irish language was being forcibly suppressed by the very people who got rich on the back of that industrialisation. It is therefore only in recent years that urban-inspired language, writing and music have appeared, mainly in Belfast and Dublin, and it is too early to say if they will be deep or extensive enough to become an integral and influential part of the culture. Despite that, all my experiences of Gaeilge in the 1970s were urban; I knew hardly anyone with a rural background and hardly anyone from outside what was then multi-channel TV land. I have no time for rugby but I am a big fan of the beautiful game, as everyone should rightly be. I come from a long line of British military people and I'm quite pleased with that heritage. I'd very much doubt that Linda Ervine's phenomenal efforts with Cairde Turas and Naíscoil na Seolta in East Belfast are inspired by a desire to kick out the Brits.

On the rare occasions in real life I hear hostility (or hostility disguised as indifference) to Gaeilge, I tend to ask people to give it a week to find out what it is like to be among those with an interest in Irish in today's world. I suggest that they should take themselves somewhere like Oideas Gael in SW Donegal for a week during the summer, and see and hear those who are using or learning Gaeilge now - not in the 1970s or 1990s, but now. If you do that, and afterwards you still feel the same way, you can say you're speaking from immediate and current experience, and nobody can fault you for trying or not trying.

riclad

we already have mandatory irish, up to leaving cert, the problem is unless you work for tg4, a company that makes signs, an irish teacher, irish has no practical use for you ,98 per cent of students never use outside school . unless you live in a rural area, who do you speak irish to, very few people speak it in real life, go to a garda or a shop keeper ,speak in irish, see what reaction you get.the government maybe had a chance to revive irish in the 70,s or the 80,s ,maybe before the internet was born, how many hours do young people spend on youtube,tik tok, social media dating apps .irish is a bit like going to mass, its a good thing, irish culture and music is a good thing to use,music, poetry, art etc but how many young people go to mass every week.

we facing a growing challenge in climate change, inflation, a terrible housing crisis, we need to switch over to more green power sources, right now we are facing into inflation,shortage of good,s , high energy prices, supply chain issues, shortage of jobs in some sectors .

meanwhile people who work full time cannot afford to buy a 1 bed house

ah sure the thing we really need is more signs in irish, print every document in irish,send more email s in irish that no one will ever need ,

and you think the most important thing is to spend more FORCING people to speak irish. the irish people do not take kindly to forced mandates that seem to have no useful purpose other than provide more work for civil servants and sign makers

we have tg4 irish tv, i presume theres also irish radio stations, and the gaeltacht, i see no chance of irish dying out, irish is taught in every school.

the problem is for most people it is not the language,of work or entertainment, pop music, and everyone speaks english anyway.

i can see irish trad music dying out as there seems to be very few young people playing old style irish music.

Ionas nach mbeadh aon amhras ann, is é mo bharúil go bhfuil tuilleadh ranganna Gaeilge AGUS Béarla éigeantach de dhíth go ghéar sna scoileanna.

Just saying.

Fishdoodle

Good things … bad things. These, I can imagine in a Father Ted sketch 🙂

Good things:

irish is a bit like going to mass, its a good thing, irish culture and music is a good thing to use,music, poetry, art etc but how many young people go to mass every week.

Bad things:

climate change, inflation, a terrible housing crisis, we need to switch over to more green power sources…. inflation,shortage of goods , high energy prices, supply chain issues, shortage of jobs … & the 1 bed house dilemma.

FORCING people to speak Irish. …. (We’ll add that to the bad things list -since there’s a capitalised word there)

Bad as the bad things appear to be …perhaps the good things - mainly cultural, serve as a panacea to the daily media onslaught from the list of bad things.

It would be nice to create more space for good things (and listen to less news) … then the bad things wouldn’t upset us so much 🙂

-We could encourage more of the good things in the entertainment things (though maybe less of the online mass) .

We could all relax a little as there’s still a lot of stress about with the whole pandemic saga, 6 planets in retrograde and plenty of that stress getting vented on Boards and the like - the road signs and pamphlets in the big scheme of things are trivial things to be getting annoyed over.

I guess people like to be heard or at the very least acknowledged - whether interested in Irish or not.

And We could all do with a new bank holiday ☀️

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977020#Comment_117977020

Its serves neither the language nor the student.

As an alternative, keep it as mandatory, but drop it as an exam subject. Take the pressure off and maybe make it more enjoable?

That said, someone made the point in a previous thread: what's the stop a student from not doing a jot of work or study and then going into the exam, writing their number on a page, handing it in and then walking straight out again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

I see the West-Brits are out in full force tonight... Must be a full moon 😕

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977736#Comment_117977736

If we let you take it off the exam roster, what will your next demand be?

No doubt every combination of words has been used in the thousands of iterations of this "discussion" that have gone before. If a student wishes, they can not do a jot of work or study and then go into the exam, write their number on a page, hand it in and then walk straight out again. But of course, as you've already suggested in a different context, such a course of action serves neither the language nor the student.

You could give it a week and see how you feel. 😉

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977760#Comment_117977760

Hang on, who's "we"? I'm not looking for permission to do anything and I'm certainly not making any "demands" - and to claim as such makes it look like you're got a persecution complex - I'm just making a suggestion.

But it ties in with the title and my earlier comment: Irish language enthusiasts seem to be more concerned about the preservation of the status of the language rather than the language itself.

gormdubhgorm

First off the OP (typical of a student) shows a certain level of misguided hyperbole in his/her post.

I get the impression that the OP is not put out in any REAL way by Irish Language signage/emails. It merely is jarring to the OP as it:

a) either reveals and inadequacy in the OP. A built in embarrassment - if you will. A feeling that the OP is somehow missing out, and has a knowledge gap.

Or -

b) alternatively some sort of in built default that Irish 'backward' and the 'language of the poor' - which if the OP has a long lineage of Irish ancestry. His/her ancestors would have been taught this mindset - about three generations ago.

--

I do not deny that the Irish language is used in a piecemeal fashion, and in a lip service manner. Even many who claim to be great 'Republicans' and try to appear 'extra' Irish - have either no grasp or a very limited grasp of the Irish language. That is wrong as well.

Such as Dessie Ellis who as feck all Irish, or Mary Lou McDonald (whose level of Irish is very weak - basic conversational at best) or Gerry Adams who despite years learning it only has a silver fáinne and constantly breaks into English when he is stuck on anything remotely complicated. It is the ultimate hypocrisy in my opinion to use the Irish language as a mere symbol. While not using it for real communication.

So I understand the OP's point, but only to a small degree.

The TD's and former TD's who I previously mentioned mainly use the Irish language not as a 'language' per se. But as a symbolic political football. Which says something in itself. It is not what language is meant for at all. It is there to be to be spoken. There are many opportunities to do so in a non academic setting (ie a pub, library, cafe) in Ciorcail Chomhrá's or Pop Up Gaeltacht's. If you are so inclined.

In the Ciorcail Chomhrá's/PUG I have attended I have met people from various countries Sudan, Russia, America, Canada, France, Australia who do not have a baggage with the Irish language like the OP has. While it is jarring and an affront for the OP, in contrast it is just a language to be spoken for these people. There is no baggage, no odd hangups.

The OP paints it as if the Irish language is everywhere. The OP knows and I know this is far from true. The Irish language is likely to be finished as community language in about 25 years or so.

Now I do not know what other languages the OP speaks besides English. Because if they did they would realise that understanding a language unearth's not only a turn of phrase but a way of thinking that you would not get in English. Each language has its own richness and depth.

For instance - 'He has a grudge against me' can be translated as 'Tá cloch sa mhuinchille aige dom'. Literally that means 'He had a stone in his sleeve for me.'

That is just one simple example of the richness of the Irish language, and a turn of phrase you would not get in England.

If the OP thinks that the Irish language has a 'creeping prevalence' they need not worry - it is merely a facade.

But the OP should spare a thought for  'Blanhnaid Ni Chofaigh's' of this world.

In the link below talks passionately about her relationship with the Irish language and how she has grown fed up with the difficulties she sometimes faces as a native Irish speaker living in Ireland. For example being told when she rings up for Car Insurance 'What is your name in English?'

It clearly slowly chips away at her very soul, of what her identity is.

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/lig-liom/90131496385

A little bit of signage/emails 'as Gaeilge' (along with English translations) is not going to really put the OP out as much in contrast? Will it?

Or does the OP have an irrational 'cloch sa mhuinchille' against the Irish language - full stop. That is the impression given. I doubt the OP would have the same reaction seeing signage in Welsh, Scots Gaelic or French? In the relevant countries etc.

An Irish language sign/email is not going to cause the OP any mental or physical anguish.

Unless the OP has certain hang up's or underlying issues that go beyond the Irish language itself? One's which relate to the OP's self identity etc. The Irish language is not at fault. Merely the OP's attitude to it IMO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977794#Comment_117977794

I'm happy enough with what I said. You should think about giving that week a try.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977806#Comment_117977806

I've had an entire lifetime, so I don't know what you think another week is going to achieve.

If you want to advance the language, then you might think about losing the "us against them" mentality - it's exactly what turns people against the language. If you don't, then continue with the condesention, but you'll need to find someone else to argue with, it's not for me.

Or b) alternatively some sort of in built default that Irish 'backward' and the 'language of the poor' - which if the OP has a long lineage of Irish ancestry. His/her ancestors would have been taught this mindset - about three generations ago.

Gaeilge is Schrödinger's language. It's backward and useless to anyone with ambition, and at the exact same moment it's the preserve of the middle-class and the elite. Odd, isn't it?

Such as Dessie Ellis who as feck all Irish, or Mary Lou McDonald (whose level of Irish is very weak - basic conversational at best) or Gerry Adams who despite years learning it only has a silver fainne and constantly breaks into English when he is stuck on anything remotely complicated. It is the ultimate hypocrisy in my opinion to use the Irish language as a mere symbol. While not using it for real communication.

A pal of mine from Béal Feirste tells the story of someone speechifying at a community event, and commencing his remarks with a powerful "A CHAIRDE GAEL", before going on to sheepishly remark "I shall now continue in English...."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977807#Comment_117977807

Ah. If I approached you differently, what excuse would you use then?

You couldn't be bothered. Grand, so.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977810#Comment_117977810

I would surmise that that many of those who are virulently anti the Irish language would invariably only speak English. Because they don't understand the advantage of having a decent level of a second language. It is much easier for such people to use Irish as the language for a lightning rod for all their ills.

Your Béal Feirste story is a good one. Because that is exactly the annoying symbolism thing I am talking about. That is not what Irish is for.

I am curious as to what the OP's background is. As they obviously attend university and have attained a certain level of education. I wonder what discipline they are studying. Given that they have such antipathy towards Irish - Science? - Computers - Engineering? . Schrodinger's language is right!

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977810#Comment_117977810

Gaeilge is Schrödinger's language. It's backward and useless to anyone with ambition, and at the exact same moment it's the preserve of the middle-class and the elite. Odd, isn't it?

Not particularly. The middle classes have always had a contrary hankering for Rousseau like rustic simplicities, as a surface thing for the most part, or a way to distance themselves from their own past, by wearing it as a costume. The more recent rise of Irish schools is more about the practicalities of a better primary education and fashion and for most a temporary one, as the majority only put their kids through primary school in the language. In some it's a D4 accent with extra culture on top. A way to ensure your kids are educated with other middle class kids minus the costs. It has helped the language though, which is a good thing.

CaitCat

If you lose the language then you lose so much more.

Unlike English, names of places, people and animals have deeper meaning. That name can reveal the place's history or significance. I see new housing estates being built in Ireland with names like 'Willow View', when there's not a willow tree in sight, why not keep the old names - they can be easily found.

On that note, how do these new developments get away with these Anglicised names? I can tell you for a fact that it doesn't happen in Wales.

TomSweeney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978085#Comment_117978085

I think a lot of people put their kids in Irish schools as they don't want their kids going to school with "de fordeners" ...