The creeping prominence of the Irish language
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I hadn’t heard ‘cloch sa mhuinchille’ before …. interesting phrase!
Blathnaid Ní Chofaigh’s experience …also interesting.
Some posters have commented on the connection of placenames to meaning. I recall visiting ‘Gaoth Sáile’/ Gweesaula (in English …if you can derive any meaning from it) , it’s a Gaeltacht area in Mayo. I was talking to a local woman about the state of the language there and over the course of the conversation she showed me some letters she had received that day. Those addressed in Irish had the Irish Gaoth Sáile scribbled out and the English written in -I’d imagine at the sorting office. Disheartening for a Gaeltacht area and a regular occurrence.
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Good lord, if you're going to be condescending, at least be in a position to justify it. Instead you produce the longest post of the thread, a rambling series of banalities that constitutes a war crime against punctuation. Tell me, at 2am, were you editing for the full twenty minutes between the time of posting and time of editing? Regardless, you should have stayed up longer.
I can assure you I feel no sense of inferiority about the Irish language. Neither do I think it is the language of the poor, because as others have said, it is now the language of the cultural elite in Ireland. Your two alternatives reveal your limited mindset. Instead, the issue is how the language is politicised.
But you go on to concede exactly that point. Irish, you acknowledge, is used as a political football by politicians of a certain persuasion. Why, then, your confusion?
I do not claim the language is everywhere - how could it be; so few speak it? Rather, I clam it is making appearances where it doesn't deserve to be at its current level of usage. You say I should not worry because it is merely a facade, but that is the very point of contention.
There's much more in your post to dismiss, but I'll keep it brief (something you'd do well to emulate) and skip to the conclusion. Again, your limited mindset excludes the correct alternative. The issue is not the language itself but its undeserved promotion. I have no objection to the speaking of the Irish language. What I object to is its being foisted on the majority.
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I clam it is making appearances where it doesn't deserve to be at its current level of usage.
An interesting opinion
- 39.8% if the population indicated that they can speak Irish in the last census. That’s quite a broad statistic and certainly a smaller percentage use it regularly. It’s not unreasonable to encourage its use for those who have it esp for those that would like to further their connection with it and use it more. I’m sure plenty of people would be amenable to that.
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It is what you implied by tone and rhetoric. Simply having signage and emails in the Irish language with translation is somehow an affront to you.
It is you who titled the thread the 'creeping prominence'. When it is anything but. Or as if it is a slow flow of lava which is going to somehow envelop you.
Yet it seems to disturb you immensely otherwise you would not have created this thread. I would agree with you that it is lip service. But as other posters have pointed out. This has long been the case since the official languages act 2003 which no doubt you are now aware of.
You can call my post condescending if you wish. But this thread does have that hyperbolic vibe. How does the signage in Irish and emails actually 'affect' you? What 'emotions' does it raise inside you that you refer to it as a 'creeping prominence' (it is anything but by the way). As the Irish language is only used mainly in such instances as signage, placenames and so on. I would not exactly call it a prominent foothold
Granted you are probably not old enough to remember the official languages act in 2003
If in the 18 years since you only now think there is a 'creeping prominence' what does that say?
It was amended by S.I for Public Bodies in 2006
Does it show you only noticed it, merely because it was in your university environment and were otherwise not exposed to such changes in other areas of life? And as a result were previously unaware of it? Too young to notice? Is it as simple as that?
Or is it that you have an antipathy towards the Irish language (despite your protestations) which causes you to think it is implemented by Irish language 'zealots'. Phrases such as 'zealots' scream chip on a shoulder to me.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I wonder what explains your repeated references to my age. You are living proof that the old cannot be expected to write intelligently or even observe basic grammar.
it seems to disturb you immensely
I'll remind you of what you said in your previous post. 'I get the impression that the OP is not put out in any REAL way by Irish Language signage/emails. It merely is jarring to the OP...' Make up your mind.
And then you reveal that you haven't even understood the point that several of us have argued repeatedly in this thread. The whole point is that the significance of the Irish Language Act, enacted almost two decades ago, is only now being felt. Although it sat on the statue books since 2003, zealots have only recently realised the power it gives them.
certainly a smaller percentage use it regularly
Indeed. The figure is 1.7% for daily use outside the education system. I wonder is even that accurate. And, conspicuously, the census does not ask for a self-assessment of standard of Irish, which it does for a third language.
Putting it before English on signs does not encourage its usage. It's a political project.
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Also this trope about the Irish language being the language of the 'cultural elite' which has been said by the OP and others needs to be knocked on the head. The Irish language is a language it can be spoken by anyone.
You only have to look at where the Gaelscoileanna are based all over which proves this is not true. It is not only based in the likes of D4. You only have to look at the many Gaelscoils in Clondalikin. Tallaght or the very mixed demographic of D13 to see Irish is not the language of the 'cultural elite' as it is incorrectly framed by many.
I know many out and out working class people who have a grá for the Irish language. By the same token I know many middle upper class people who want nothing to do with the Irish language, Irish origin games and so on. The narrative that Irish is the language of the 'cultural elite' is a lazy one.
You only have to look at one very famous Irish sportsman who would certainly not be described as culturally elite Conor Mcgregor. When he was of school age he attended not just one but two Gaelscoils for his Primary and Secondary education.
Gaelscoil Scoil Mológa, in Harold's Cross, at primary level, and Gaelcholáiste Coláiste de hÍde in Tallaght. But sure, why let the truth get in the way of a forced false narrative!! Irish is the language of the 'cultural elite'. 😉
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Ireallydontknow:
a rambling series of banalities that constitutes a war crime against punctuation.
Gormdubhgorm
The ‘creeping prominence' …as if it is a slow flow of lava which is going to somehow envelop you.
Those comments were hilarious 😂 - at least yee both have a great sense of humour! When the comments get personal though, these forums tend to descend into mud slinging.
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As an aside they only got their first Gaelscoil in D4 this september, of course if thir parents want to send them to a Gaelcholáiste in 8 years time then their only option will be outside of D4. At least Coláiste Eoin and Isogáin aren't too far away, but good luck competing with Scoil Lorcain for places, next closest after that is in Rathfarnham.
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Groan. What a waste of your time. The point is that it has been embraced by the cultural elite, not that it is spoken exclusively by them or is in some sense more theirs than the everyman's.
Funny that you should mention Conor McGregor. On the basis of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQMGkw52-Lo, if that's the product of primary and secondary schooling in a Gaelscoil, I fear for the language's future.
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You have answered none of my questions. It seems you only good at raising them. Why does it disturb you so much? And why did you use the phrase 'zealots'. Also why do you think it is implemented by zealots? To paraphrase full metal jacket 'what is your major malfunction' over some Irish language signage, announcement on public transport, and and small bit in a few emails?
How does it 'affect' you and what emotions does it raise in you? I am curious from a psychological standpoint. Either it has been sparked by your upbringing or you had a bad experience in learning the Irish language. What is the root cause? That is what I am trying to find out.
It is a simple question as you seem very invested in it, otherwise you would not have created this thread and used terms such as 'zealots' 'creeping prominence' and so on?
By any measure it seems irrational to fear a bit of signage, and mentions of Irish in emails.
Posters would also find it interesting as to your background in general. Where you are from (general socio demographic etc) and what discipline you are studying/or have studied in university. It would at least help posters understand a tone of underlying antipathy at best, or hatred at worst for the Irish language.
And it would at least help those who view the thread understand your hyperbolic reaction, towards a small bit of signage and emails here and there. It is amusing in one way.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I thought it was the 'cultural elite' you were sure that 'only' spoke Irish a few posts ago?
Are you beginning to see holes in your argument/narrative at all?
In between your 'groaning' maybe you might generally answer the discipline you study. Your general upbringing demographic etc, and your past and current relationship with the Irish language? It seems to be a complex one.
At a guess, I would say you are a boy 'done good' one of the few in the family to go to third level etc. Or a working class background. You do not study languages at university. And you did not enjoy learning Irish at school. Your parents had no real interest in the Irish language
You view the Irish language as something 'other' that you cannot relate to. Only for 'zealots' or the cultural elite. And it has culminated in your outpouring in this thread. Warning us all of a 'creeping prominence' - doom!
That is my guess, an example of 'nature and nurture' and so on. And a blinkered or narrow mindset.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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That is another misnomer trope trotted out as the Gaelscoileanna, are multi denominational. Nor do the parents have to have any Irish language, or even be Irish.
You only have to do a bit of research on 'Ola Majekodunmi' and occasionally listen to R na L to see and hear how laughable this trope is. Who happens to be an Irish national of Nigerian descent.
http://www.raidionalife.ie/en/presenters/ola-majekodunmi-2/
In my experience it is non-nationals who are more amenable to the Irish language. They carry far less baggage than many of their 'native' Irish counterparts.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Good lord, you really are an oddball. How could you possibly expect I would detail my course of study and 'general upbringing demographic'?!
I thought it was the 'cultural elite' you were sure that 'only' spoke Irish a few posts ago?
Are you beginning to see the holes in your argument/narrative at all?
Again you misquote me. I did not say only they spoke Irish. Yet somehow, despite that I asserted exactly the opposite in the post you quote, you interpret it as some sort of concession on my part. What I am beginning to see is that you have a tenuous grasp on reality, interpreting statements as you please.
And your guess could hardly be less accurate.
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From now on my posts on boards will be bilingual, and here is a good place to start.
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As seo amach beidh mo phoist ar bhoird dátheangach, agus seo áit mhaith le tosú.
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It is not not an unreasonable request are you not proud of the course you are studying, and your background? I think you do not want to reveal it because it would reveal the genesis of your attitude to the Irish language. It is a basically a combination of where you are from and your upbringing.
I feel you do not want to reveal even general information because it will 'lift the veil' on why you believe there is a 'creeping prominence' of the Irish language. And it will make you uncomfortable.
I on the other hand would have no problem telling my background and relationship, with the Irish language.
Personally I believe people who couch use Irish language even in the most minimal forms - as a creeping prememinace. And call people who are fond of the Irish language 'zealots' revealing. From most right thinking members of society that is 'oddball' stuff. Why be so worked up about something so benign?
I just feel clues to your current attitude to the Irish language are in how you were brought up, where you are from, and how you felt learning Irish in the past. There are clearly issues there.
I was not asking you reveal your address or tell me where you live. Just simple general questions as you listed above.
It will be demonstrative how you have landed on your current stringent viewpoint. If you do not want to reveal any background (ie your relationship with the Irish language) that is fine.
But many people will be wondering who is this OP headcase going on about 'zealots' stirring the pot, and uses phrases such as 'creeping prominence'. And what were the nature/nurture reasons that created such a viewpoint? At the moment we can only make educated guesses as to your reasons why. As I have done.
But if I was to put money on it I would say I am close. As you have repeatedly mentioned a mythical 'cultural elite'. Pretended not to hate the Irish language, yet clearly seem 'put out' by it. Otherwise you would not have created this thread about something so benign. Which is clearly implicit in your tone and very narrow viewpoint IMVHO.
How does a simple language signage/emails etc make you feel? And why? What is the root cause?
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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What is the root cause?
This would be a really interesting area to explore - the general root cause of antipathy/aversion to Irish. I will put a few thoughts together on that :)
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The implication about cultural elite was obvious. Ok if you say my background guess at your relationship to Irish is not accurate. I would suggest you consider yourself 'middle class' not working class. Do not have appreciation for languages as otherwise you would not be 'put out' by a bit of signage. And would be more interested in English origin sports. Which is fine each to their own. But one way or another you are a product of your environment.
Do you think a Polish person living in Ireland would be creating threads giving out about Irish on signage, Irish in emails and Irish announcements 'first' on trains so vocally??
I somehow doubt it. As most non-Irish nationals would just take it for what it is a language. As simple as that. It is not the Irish Language signage that is the issue. But your psychological reaction to the signage IMO.
If it annoys you so much. Would you stop using the words - 'Garda, Taoiseach, Luas, Dáil, Oireachtas' - and so on? As you would no doubt say 'TG four' when you say 'TG4'.
The latter is normally a dead giveaway as to a psyche for those born and bred in Ireland- by the way.
The Irish language signage is only a little bit more of nudge than the TG4 issue, unearthing the true face of a person's relationship with the Irish language who reacts OTT to it. In a negative type fashion.
Post edited by gormdubhgorm onGuff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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It is like drawing blood from a turnip trying to get an answer from the OP. As to the root cause.
I think the OP does not want to answer it.
The way I see it with the Irish language there is are a number of avenues people get interested in it.
It can be that they were born in a native speaking family, or have an interest in languages and are good at them. Some get interested in the Irish language because of a political viewpoint - symbolism etc (not me by the way).
Some would relearn Irish later in life just for the craic. Away from an academic environment or in an academic environment (this would be my category for the craic)
Or there are other people who would like to learn Irish again, but lack the confidence to learn it. They don't know where to start. Such people only need encouragement. To revive Irish they once knew.
A few more signs in Irish might encourage, such people. Give them a spark? What harm?
If any of the above saw signage they would look at it and smile to themselves. And possibly think of the literal translation. Some of the real top Gaeilgoir's might even write in to correct it if there was any mistake! :D
It sort of makes me think of some Irish people on holidays who start speaking to each other in Irish abroad. Because they see other nationals speaking their language. Suddenly they give the 'cúpla focal' a go. Almost out of embarrassment.
I find people who adverse to the Irish language many lack confidence in the Irish language. Or did not treat it seriously at school and/or focused on other subjects instead. Or maybe they just had a poor Irish teacher, and it brings back bad memories. You hear a lot of 'dead language' talk. Mentions of the 'richness' of language goes right over their head, or they simply don't care.
Then if the above 'adverse' group see signs in the Irish language it makes them feel uneasy/uncomfortable they want to avoid it/ignore it.
Post edited by gormdubhgorm onGuff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Some nice points here - particularly relating to those who had a good experience much of which I'd agree with.
On the other side of the fence I can somewhat understand the discomfort felt by others wrt Gaeilge. Lacking confidence for one, having a poor teacher is a big one I think and if poorly taught ... it can indeed be taught in a 'dead' way.
I do think that that the aversion aspect is due to unconscious reasons ... which is why people can't give a root answer as to the discomfort with Gaeilge.
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Ok people .... bear with me here :-) I believe it's down to how the language was taught at school.
Say you have a teacher who is bad at teaching maths ... you pick up on the vibes - you can sense the discomfort and just get on with it till the lesson is over. You develop an aversion to it.
1.Many teachers who hadn't great Irish and who weren't comfortable with it had to teach it and thus, taught it badly...vibes and all. Disastrous!
2.It all starts with sounds ... having fun with sounds and those unique to Irish in a fun way - through song rhythm and rhyme and movement. Sounds embed to memory and those distinct to Irish are more easily produced. Without a good foundation in sound, pattern, rhythm you're on the back foot!
3.Children heard/read stories in past tense narrative - lacking in direct speech which could transpose naturally into the daily classroom environment. Without being able to use the language it became very much confined to memory, books and not to practical use.
3.Teachers believed they were using/promoting Irish informally (as encouraged by the dept of Ed) via classroom management as Gaeilge. When newly qualified teachers 'arrived' in the real classroom world, they did as their teachers did (back in the day) and used directions such as "close the door" , "stand up". "open your books" "hands up"...etc . Many teachers would be at a loss to figure out why children didn't really talk back in Irish. No wonder!!! - as you respond to an order via action and NOT speech. This, in turn, lead to an unintended subconscious resentment of Irish , as a result of a non-reciprocated perceived sense of power from authority. "Always telling me what to do" syndrome related to Irish.
Ask anyone what Irish they remember from school ...invariably your going to get orders. .... also .... "an bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas". And that was the bulk of "conversational Irish" - tragic.
Ask any teacher what phrases they hear children use mostly, and you'll get a lot of questions "can I...?" . "Is it lunchtime yet". "can we do sport..." Also, needs "I need a pencil"/ "I can't find my..."
So the Irish modeled, used & taught by teachers was at odds with the regular linguistic requirements of the pupils. So plenty of people today will say "I understand it . but I can't speak it" - now you see why!
Gererally, with a good foundation of conversational AND useful Irish enhanced via drama, plus a natural acquisition of grammar to a formal acquisition of simple grammer - you can move to the more sophisticated studies in poetry and literature (in 2nd level) and dare I say it ...enjoy it! (except perhaps Peig which should never have been on the syllabus) If you start on the more sophisticated stuff without the foundation ...you're fecked! Than in Junior/Leaving cert - students cram, memorize exam answers and perhaps break their wrist for the oral exam so they can reem off (in verbal diarrhea) what they prepared about their broken wrist ... and thank God it's all over!
Tragic - for students and for the language! So much Trauma.
So - only teachers competent in a subject should teach it.
A badly taught language does not make that language intrinsically bad.
Irish is an incredibly rich & expressive language - if perceived as useless - it's because it was taught as such and that belief self perpetuates and has become a collective belief to many.
I can understand where resentment comes from - its acquired.
Teachers who are fluent, comfortable and competent with the language can inspire that in others. Language learned without pressure and in an immersive environment is best.
Post edited by Fishdoodle on3 -
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I find people who adverse to the Irish language many lack confidence in the Irish language. Or did not treat it seriously at school and/or focused on other subjects instead. Or maybe they just had a poor Irish teacher, and it brings back bad memories.
Or it quite simply has no relevance to their lives beyond background noise on signage and the like and no harm in that. They like the idea of it out there somewhere, hence a majority support it at some remove, but find no reasons to be more interested in what is essentially a "foreign" language for most, a language they'll rarely use, which will take time to learn and will have a narrower vocabulary in, while they already have a prefectly fluent way to engage with pretty much the entirety of Irish people, including Irish speakers. Never mind the rest of the english speaking world(of which actual English people are a minority). I suspect that's a large percentage of people. It would be my general position on the matter. No requirement for lack of confidence or any other "issues".
As an aside: I have found in many conversations around different subjects on Boards and online in general it's an all too common trope among some to ascribe something lacking in the people of the opposing viewpoint by way, or rather by lack of argument. Oh you don't agree with position X, you must have been hurt by it in the past or somesuch nonsense. It's lazy and condesending at best and does little for any debate.
A comparison might be if someone wanted to move to Spain. They'd learn Spanish(or Catalan) rather than Basque, because that would be significantly more useful and usable. Even in the Basque region. The romance of learning Basque as a hobby in effect could well be a thing, especially if they did move to that region, but it would be more an exercise in romance, rather than utility. Now life shouldn't be all about utility that's for sure, but it's a huge part of it.
Now if someone is interested in learning Irish I say fair play, but it is in essence a hobby and sometimes a hobby horse for some, and that's grand too. It will keep the language alive and that's no bad thing either, but its position as the language of the Irish people is a tenuous one.
For myself and my schooling I was a mixed middling student of Irish. Solid C grade level(pretty much all reading and writing back then). I was better in French(even though the two teachers I had in the subject were dire) and indeed found it more useful on childhood holidays there, even though I regularly went to gaeltacht areas on fishing trips. Today I'd retain more French than Irish, hell, I'd retain more Latin than Irish and that is a "dead language" though it can help with getting the general gist in reading Spanish and Italian. Now if I had needed Irish on those fishing trips no doubt I'd have retained more and been more interested, but I didn't and didn't. It remained another school subject to plough through with little utility beyond it.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Totally agree, but people feel threatened when you make suggestions like that.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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That is why IMO there should be more Irish speaking pubs. Order a pint in Irish and it is cheaper etc - give incentive!
Plus inhibitions will gradually be lost if the vast majority are speaking Irish it will be picked up. Even by listening to more fluent speakers just chatting about everyday stuff.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I suspect the interest just isn't there among the wider population. It's a minority interest with a majority of general support. Irish has a core now it arguably didn't have even a few decades ago and that's good and I reckon it's largely self sustaining, but I also reckon that core will remain small with little actual growth beyond it. I would lay bets we'll never see a vast majority speaking it, even hamfistedly.
Plus there's another sort of issue I'd see. OK if I move to France and learn French, I will in time become pretty fluent in it, even very fluent, but a local will usually spot pretty quickly I'm not a native speaker. I know an Italian with a fluency in English that is on par if not better than a few native speakers I've known and in text it would be a rare day you'd spot they're not a native speaker, but it's pretty clear when they open their mouths they're not a native speaker. So let's say I go all out and I learn Irish, which beyond its name is a "foreign" language to me and gain fluency in it, I'm still not going to be a native speaker. In my own country.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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That's not a bad idea. I don't even think to need to offer the incentives, but you need to have a few well-versed and patient irish-speaking regulars.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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if you learn french or italian, it will be seen as an extra skill ,in business, how many people who get a grades in irish can actually speak it fluently.speaking irish might get you a job in tg4,rte, or a teaching job.speaking french is a useful skill if you work in business or wish to work in europe as millions of people speak french as part of their daily life. irish is spoken in the gaeltacht, mostly. i have never met one person in real life who was actually fluent in speaking irish.irish is part of our culture,i think it should be supported, it should be optional in the leaving cert, if students want to do another subject, like chemistry, or computer studys, let them , rather than forcing every student to spend 100s of hours on a subject they might have no interest in. i think wales has a similar problem, most people in wales do not speak welsh, they speak english in daily life .i regard irish like reading poems or folk music, it is a subject that is a minority interest ,it has cultural value and thats a good thing.Say you move to france or anywhere in the eu, speaking french will open a wide range of jobs and contacts to you and have real practical value , i can speak to anyone in ireland as everyone speaks english. when i see people using irish on twitter, or instagram ,tik tok then i think there might ba a chance of some kind of revival of interest in it. If someone wants to spends hours writing emails in irish thats there problem, as 99 per cent of people will just read the english version.
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Getting an A grade at leaving cert in Irish or any other language doesn't make you bilingual, it's advanced beginner level at best.
It's no wonder people prefer learning European languages to Irish at school - it is at an easier level, no doubt about it. If we had to read French prose and deal with the passé simple for leaving cert it would be interesting to hear what people would say.
I bet you have met a fluent Irish speaker but you didn't know it. I don't go around blahing that I am an Irish speaker because I can see the reaction when the Irish language comes up in conversation with certain people. There's a lot of baggage out there about people's school days...
There is plenty of Irish on twitter, insta, tic-toc, over 15,000 on facebook's gaeilge amhain and so on if you're interested.
But don't forget, some people, like on this thread, will give out if Irish appears on screen or on a sign. Irish is "forced" on you unless it stays neatly tucked away in school books and out of the public eye :(
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There's a certain type of person who love to pretend like they love the Irish language. I don't know what it is...whether it's a "look at us Irish people speaking our own language that no one else speaks" or what.
You see it on reddit, they absolutely love Irish language and there's a daily post there now with some vocabulary of on topic words that people upvote. The lads upvoting it can't speak Irish but they love the idea of speaking Irish.
I couldn't care less about the Irish language. It could go extinct for all I care. Everyone is like "but it's our history, our culture!".....ye don't give a shite about lots of history or culture of this country. Farmers are the culture and history of this land and everyone wants to make them extinct! Peat burning is the history and culture and ye want to ban it. Don't go on about history and culture when ye'r all turning into yanks with your american accents and Starbocks and McMuffins.
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Can't we just rid of the Irish. Surely there are less than 500,000 that speak Irish.
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