The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118479793#Comment_118479793

Fair point: he said hostility.

I think there are more 'hostile' (I'd say pushy though, not hostile) people on the pro side, which gives that impression. You know yourself, you get one or two over-enthusiasic zealots and then suddenly the entire movement is tarred with the same brush.

But what qualifies as 'anti-Irish'? I'm all for the promotion and publication of the language and for the tools for those who wish to learn to be made easily available and accessible, but ultimately for the individuals choice to decide what media they use to express themselves.

Would that class me as anti-irish?

kowloon

I'm Irish, born here, lived here for the vast majority of my life. But I'm in the Pale, so maybe that doesn't make me Irish enough. Either way, like almost everyone else in the country, I speak English. The Irish language makes the writing on road signs smaller and makes government documents longer. That's the greatest contribution it makes to my culture.

Countries do need a common language to function well. Ours is English, that's not going to change no matter how much a minority want it to. Particularly when even that minority largely speaks English every day.

As above, I'm fully behind funding for people who want to learn the language, but forcing people to learn something is counterproductive.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484231#Comment_118484231

Plenty of people living in "the pale" interested in the Irish language.

Plenty of people living in Conamara that have no interest in Irish or Irish language related culture.

How do you feel about being forced to learn maths or Shakespeare at school?

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118513849#Comment_118513849

 [SARCASM]But I'm in the Pale, so maybe that doesn't make me Irish enough.[/SARCASM]

As long as the Leaving is effectively a stretched out college entrance exam I say make all the subjects optional. The Junior can be the broad education. That said, Maths is a hell of a lot more useful than the other two core subjects and I can't see any course in Science, Medicine anything related to tech taking on anyone without Maths.

Being told how to appreciate literature hasn't helped me in later life any more than Irish and English is a literature course at LC level. There's a stronger case for computing/coding as a core subject than either English or Irish, but that's something that's useful for the young rather than something that gives the average retired voter a warm fuzzy feeling inside so it won't happen.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118513849#Comment_118513849

Why do you kero harping on about bloody Shakespeare when you've been given the answer several times? You're sounding like a broken record at this point.

For (hopefully) the last time: make them all optional - because if the best reason for mandatory Irish you can come up with is 'because Shakespeare is too' then it really IS time to drop the politics and evaluate what we're teaching students and why.

Upforthematch

The reason is simple. It's a reply to the statement repeated on this thread that people are being FORCED to learn Irish. Haven't you noticed that word FORCED appearing more times than the word SHAKESPEARE in the thread? It mightnt jar as much with you because you have been one of the main people repeating it!

If people don't believe in three core subjects fine, no issue with that, it's picking out Irish (constantly) of the three is what I reply to.

I see you're claiming a neutral ground here as if your stance isn't one bit as political as any other. Hmm, no not buying it.

You stop singling out Irish and I'll stop singling out Shakespeare.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Again, your memory seems to be lacking.

I have said several times to you directly that I am in favour of no mandatory subjects. So - again - this harping on about Shakespeare is you taking to yourself and making excuses.

My stance is based on the student choosing for themselves. Again, said this several times., but you chose not to read.

Furze99

And will continue not to read, because it does not suit the language movements revised tactical approach. When after a century of independence, it's seen that Irish has not been restored as the primary tongue by choice of the people - then you seek to implement the constitutional approach and oblige the state to legislate. But you can legislate all you want and short of putting recalcitrant citizens in gulags, it's not going anywhere.

The position of Irish in our society is best left to the people. Withdraw all state support and legislation and let it prosper as it will like a wild weed or wither as the people decide.

Upforthematch

@kowloon @Princess Consuela Bananahammock

It's interesting on this thread that it's only after I bring up Shakespeare that posters become in favour of fully optional subjects. Why don't you lead with it, why does it have to dragged out of you again and again? We've been through this PCB several times months ago on the other thread and if I have to keep repeating it, it's because a new poster comes into the thread and says the same thing.

Point me to your posts on non-Irish related threads looking for fully optional subject choice please! Otherwise it's thinly veiled anti-Gaeilge sentiment.

Upforthematch

@Furze99

You don't hide your anti-Gaeilge sentiment in that post Furze99 and that's fine I respect that. It just happens to be an extreme minority view. Gaeilge is a part of life in Ireland, always was, always will.

The majority of people who don't speak a word of Irish on a daily basis would consider Gaeilge more of a great oak worth preserving than a wild weed to be trampled on.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520184#Comment_118520184

Bullshit - no one singled out anything. Kowloon's post didn't even mention education.

Secondly,you said, 'We've been through this PCB several times months ago on the other thread" - but then you say "you stop singling out Irish and I'll stop singling out Shakespeare."

Now, from the several times months ago, you really should know that I don't single our Irish, I don't see a need for any mandatory subjects for the leaving cert. But you ignore this. Doesn't fit your victim mentality.

Thirdly, none of the other posters are new, so that reason is bogus.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520198#Comment_118520198

"The majority of people who don't speak a word of Irish on a daily basis would consider Gaeilge more of a great oak worth preserving than a wild weed to be trampled on."

Preserving? I thought language was supposed to be a living useful thing? Not 'preserved' like you'd save a few tomatoes by bottling them.

No I'm not anti anything - I just think that cultural issues like this should survive on their own merits. If the people value and want them, they'll thrive & prosper. If they don't, no need to prop them up. Let the people decide. What's to be afraid of?

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118520184#Comment_118520184

The thread title and the first post set the topic, it's been about Irish since the first post. Make a thread titled compulsory subjects in the LC and I'll be in there to make my case that Maths is the subject with the strongest claim, and even then, some people aren't good with Maths, and I don't think that person with a gift for language should be held back from going to a literature course because they don't like calculus.

People should be allowed play to their strengths.

Liberty_Bear

The Irish Situation relating to our language is that the aparthy has stemmed from schools , I would teach Irish from the point of view of how it can enable us to both retain a sense of pride but also the pragmatic elements which are it forms the basis for langauge learning later on in life. Those with a propensity for langauges tend to find that it is much easier to pick up other languages later in existence.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118522020#Comment_118522020

I would teach it as a living language, but there are many primary teachers who are not competent enough in the language to teach it properly.

This means that horizons cannot be broadened in secondary, as so many pupils come to secondary without a proper grasp of the basics; by which I mean, they cannot speak about basic things in Irish.

If the foundations are poor, so will everything that is put on top of them. This is unfortunately the situation we have reached, 100 years after achieving our independence from England.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118522666#Comment_118522666

True. The problem there is that even after independence, we never really moved out of Britain's sphere of influence.

Upforthematch

Nice podcast below about how the use Irish is growing in Europe that would be of interest to people following this thread.

https://www.theirishpassport.com/podcast/an-teanga-beo/

Upforthematch

Some of you may be following the FOCLACH news story over the past week.

Article here - https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/its-filling-people-with-joy-irish-woman-creates-foclach-the-irish-version-of-wordle-41309366.html

but TLDR: Irish version of Wordle developed and has taken off.

What's of interest for this thread about the creeping prominence of the language is

1. That an Irish version of the new word app exists and was created very quickly
2. That the Irish version was easy to develop (building on the metadata already in place - all of the "boring" ground work facilitating these projects is already in place because of the professionalisation of the language as I mentioned earlier in the thread)
3. That the Irish version is already proving popular - 10,000 users now.
4. The woman who created the app is an Irish language speaker, not fluent but she enjoys it. There are a lot of people in this category - quietly postively disposed to the language, learning little by little and helping and supporting each other and the language for the love of it!

I have highlighted the relevant info from the article below. I'm one of the 10,000 by the way and I really enjoy Foclach. Give it a go - www.foclach.com

‘It’s filling people with joy’: Irish woman creates Foclach, the Irish version of Wordle

A woman has created an Irish version of the popular online word game Wordle – and it has blown up worldwide with people in over 70 countries playing it.Web developer and Irish language enthusiast Linda Keating developed the game called Foclach soon after Wordle went viral. 

Speaking to Independent.ie, Ms Keating said; "I speak Irish but I don’t have great Irish, but I do enjoy it and I love word games so as soon as Wordle became big I thought ‘I can make an Irish language version of this’."I thought I think it’ll be fun for me to try and practice my Irish a bit and really that was my first motivation.”

The original game, created by Josh Wardle, is a daily game that gives users one round of play per day and it has become incredibly popular on Twitter as it allows users to share their score on the social media platform. The aim of the game is to guess a mystery five-letter word, known as the ‘Wordle’ in six tries. After each guess, the colour of the tiles will change to reflect how close their guess was to the word.Three days ago, Mr Wardle announced that he has sold the game – which has amassed an audience of millions- to The New York Times for a reported “low seven-figure sum”. 

Players are worried that they may have to pay for the game in the future. The New York Times said it will “initially” remain free but its general manager of games said it’s a “little early for us to talk about where we might go with the game.”But Ms Keating, the creator of Foclach, said she has no plans to monetise her Irish word game, which has attracted over 10,000 users. “I don't want to monetise it, I’ll never put it behind a paywall or I’ll never put ads on the website, I won’t do that,” the web developer said. "I’ll keep it going the way it is as-is for as long as I can.

“We will see in the future but I’ve no intention, it’s not something that I think should be monetised because part of the pure joy is pulling together this community of Irish language speakers and that for me is the most important thing.

"That’s the joy of the whole thing and that’s the reason people are enjoying using it because it’s this simple, honest, honourable endeavour.”

The Irish language enthusiast said it’s incredible to see how far the game has reached, and she’s delighted it’s bringing a community of Irish-speaking people together. 

“It fills me with such joy. There are 70 countries worldwide that have played the game so far, it’s amazing,” she said.

"I saw someone play it in Togo there two days ago and, the idea of somebody abroad playing with this little Irish game, I just think it’s very magical.”

Ms Keating, who is a big fan of word games and has created two others in the past, said it was relatively easy to develop Foclach, the more difficult part was getting a list of five-letter words together. 

“I took a clone of another version of Wordle, I didn’t take a clone of Josh’s actual game, I took a spin-off of his game and cloned that as my foundation step so I was able to get that up and running really fast,” she explained. 

"Then I had to get the word list, so I got a word list that was published online on an open-source source and then I got another word list from my partner who is an Irish language speaker so I was able to get those word lists, which is the most important part.”

The web developer originally created the game so it could be played multiple times, and there wasn’t a daily word like Wordle. 

However, after receiving feedback she decided to make the default game similar to the original game, in that users can play the same word as each other every 24 hours, but there is still an option to play multiple times in ‘practice mode’. 

"Ever since I put in the extra feature with the two modes, that's when it really took off and everyone was sharing their results with each other so it creates community amongst people,” she said.

“I think that's the magic of the original design and that’s why people enjoy it.

“The beauty of the game is that it’s lightweight and it doesn't have any expensive graphics, it’s very simple, it’s the kind of thing you would have seen on the web going back to the 1990s.

"It’s a very bare-bone, humble, simple, little app and I think that’s the charm and I think that’s why people are enjoying it.”

You can play Fochlach online (www.foclach.com)

Hotblack Desiato

Zzzzzzz. Same shít, different day.

Evade

Thing 🙄

Thing in Irish 😁

Is that keyboard in Foclach the standard Irish layout? It's awful.

Upforthematch

I think Joe Duffy has done a better job than posters on this thread against the "creeping prominence" of Irish. Have a listen

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22064281/

I think the key point that 100% of the public posts require English and that a base of Irish speakers is needed to provide an Irish language service was missed here.