The creeping prominence of the Irish language

06-10-2021 12:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977822#Comment_117977822

I couldn't make any assumptions about anyone who posts on a message board about Irish. I've never met such a level of hostility (nor such a level of desire to share that hostility) regarding Gaeilge in real life, so I have very little on which to base an assessment. The people with whom I converse i nGaeilge (and as I said never in English) have a mixure of work backgrounds, with qualifications in the sciences and the humanities, not to mention a couple of trades.

06-10-2021 12:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978944#Comment_117978944

There's no hope you'd ever get a conversation like that in real life,. The vast majority of people wouldn't risk coming out with some of this guff in case they'd end up becoming a live illustration of the seanfhocal is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón. Keyboard warriors are a hoot. 😁

markodaly · 06-10-2021 12:45AM

delete

06-10-2021 01:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980037#Comment_117980037

Nuair a bhí mé i mo dhéagóir (fadó fadó), bhí teach tábhairne áirithe sa cheantar a bhí sásta piontaí a dhíol do dhaoine óga (faoi aois) a bhí in ann caint leis an bhfoireann i nGaeilge.

When I was a teenager (a long time ago), there was a particular pub in the area that was willing to sell pints to young people (underage) who could speak to the staff in Irish.

(Now THAT was an incentive to learn a couple of phrases)

06-10-2021 01:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980216#Comment_117980216

I get what you mean about not being a native speaker. But of course, if you don't learn Irish you'll sound even less like a native speaker. In your own country. And, as you clearly believe, in that language's own country. But does that really matter? I'll never sound like a native speaker, but I'm knocking a lot of fun out of the attempt.

On the other hand, I know some foreigners who speak Irish to a very high standard indeed. One American of my acquaintance has been learning for less than 10 years, but is such a high-quality Irish speaker that locals assume he's an Irish person who can put on an excellent American accent.

If you were to learn languages other than Irish (or perhaps you already have), would that lack of "perfection" or "high standard" bother you? They say it's one of the biggest barriers to learning any foreign language; people don't want to make errors and be heard making errors. But making errors is a natural part of learning a language - every child has to make countless errors, yet children will have a very high understanding of the syntax and grammar of their native language by the time they reach 4.

If you and I had a conversation about pretty much any subject in real life and in English, the objective quality of the English would be very high. Yet if we recorded the conversation and then played it back, it would be riddled with mistakes, and full of "facepalm moments".

On the subject of foreigners speaking Irish, here's a 4-minute video of a fella called Victor Bayda being interviewed (Gaeilge with English subtitles) about his work. He's employed as an Irish language language planner for South Kerry. He was born in Moscow. Leaving aside any debating points you might want to raise, have a listen for a couple of minutes. To my slightly inexpert ear, there are a couple of words that might be influenced by a native Russian accent, but you'd have to be very picky to say he's inauthentic. Mind you, apparently he is proficient in NINE languages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ8edEJEJfY

riclad · 06-10-2021 02:01AM

All the Irish tik Toks I've seen are people doing very stupid things or else jokes in bad taste, we have 5 million people, I sure x per cent speak Irish, good for them. X per cent of people. Write poems, or play the bodhran. Good for them , just don't try and force everyone else to do it I don't watch tik Toks regularly , I watch comedy shows, grand designs etc maybe there's 1000s of people making YouTube videos in Irish daily but I don't see them. I'd like the government to maybe try and solve the housing crisis, maybe hire more nurses and doctors , reform the health service use more renewable energy as we depend on oil and gas which is rising in cost

I don't think the Irish language should even be in the top 30 problems to tackle as we try to recover from pandemic.maybe all my friends speak Irish but they forgot to tell me

Wibbs · 06-10-2021 09:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981823#Comment_117981823

I know and have known a few Irish language speakers, mostly hobbyists with a couple of native speakers. People like anybody else. Good bad and indifferent. 😁 I know and have known a few golfers too. That doesn't interest me either. Spending a week with either group would have little impact. I have zero issue with people enjoying whatever they do and can understand the passion in many, but I've enough hobbies and the interest just isn't there. I think this is the sticking point for many Irish language enthusiasts. They just don't get that others aren't interested the way they are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981889#Comment_117981889

I get what you mean about not being a native speaker. But of course, if you don't learn Irish you'll sound even less like a native speaker. In your own country. And, as you clearly believe, in that language's own country. But does that really matter? I'll never sound like a native speaker, but I'm knocking a lot of fun out of the attempt.

For a start I don't "clearly believe" that Irish is the language's own country. I consider to be a minority native language of the country and native to only a small percentage of her population. English is the native language for the vast majority of the Irish people, at home and abroad. With a couple of tweaks of history it could well have been French and that would have become our native language. And fair enough, though I think the "English" bit sticks in the craw of some. Understandable enough. Regardless; is an Englishman less of a native if he can't speak Cornish? Is a Spaniard less of a native if he can't speak Basque? A Frenchman if he can't speak Breton? Of course not. Much of this native language stuff has politics behind it. EG if I added: Is a Welshman less of a native if he can't speak Welsh? That would take on a different hue.

The lack of perfection wouldn't bother me, so long as I could get a point across, which goes for any language. The difference being in learning a language like French or Spanish, or German would be more of practical utility rather than a passion or hobby. If we had that imagined conversation as Gaelige it would be an exercise in speaking a "foreign" language and that's fine. Again there is that gulf between those who see Irish as a passion and hobby - which is fine and fair enough - and those that quite simply don't.

The Muscovite lad is very impressive alright. I've known two such language polyglots who seem to have an incredible natural ability to absorb languages. With passion and hard work required of course. These people are rare enough mind you, though the majority could hold two languages in their head to some degree. We see that in other countries where English is a second language(Sweden and the like)and history shows it too. In the Roman empire an average bod or bodess could have a facility in Latin, Greek in the east and whatever language local to them(if you hopped in a time machine learning Greek would probably be your best bet overall). After that fell we can look to the large number of Irish Christian missionary types who marched into post Roman Europe. They would have had Old Irish, Latin, some Greek and picked up local languages along the way. Even the IT/computer programmer type that has gotten stick from some in this thread and accusations of being monolingual(and in perfidious Albion's tongue no less) has more than one language, often several, only they're talking to computers. If I'm shown a page of Python or C I may as well be looking at Aramaic.

Wibbs · 06-10-2021 09:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981904#Comment_117981904

All the Irish tik Toks I've seen are people doing very stupid things or else jokes in bad taste,

To be fair all the TicToks I've seen were people doing very stupid things, or bad jokes. The language involved, where it was present, made little difference. Then again that platform is for young farts not old. Being of the latter I'd be worried if I understood it and would reckon the youth were doing something wrong. 😁

Cyclingtourist · 06-10-2021 10:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973781#Comment_117973781

the organization you're trying to remember was the Language Freedom Movement. I remember them holding meetings in the Mansion House in Dublin.

Founded in 1966, the Language Freedom Movement (Irish: Gluaiseacht Saoirse Teanga) was a political organisation opposed[dubious – discuss] to some aspects of the state-attempted revival of the Irish language in the Republic of Ireland, which had the backing of several notable Irish-speaking writers including Séamus Ó Grianna ("Máire") and John B. Keane.[1][2]

I would describe it as a pressure group rather than a 'political organisation'.

gormdubhgorm · 06-10-2021 06:41PM

As another poster suggested most people in the ROI are just content to have Irish ‘the background’. I agree with that poster it is just the way it is.

Such people are happy with little bits here and there such as Irish signage etc. But for various reasons do not take it further and speak Irish regularly. Even though they have some Irish from school at least.

This middle ground seem to have a latent pride in the Irish language, without regularly speaking it.

Granted outside the middle ground there are people who would have utmost distain for the Irish language. Or on the other extreme some hate how they are forced to speak English in their daily lives.Despite being fluent Irish speakers in their own country etc.

I saw this clip of Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan discussing the Irish language and his relationship with it. He mentions how it was taught at his school, and how he feels about it now. Plus made various practical suggestions to make learning Irish, fun and relevant.

https://youtu.be/zz-3Bhcbja4

The bit that stood out to me was how Ming said the only time he enjoyed doing Irish was in the Irish Oral examination. When he was speaking it and having fun with it.

And it also struck me how Ming again shows up the myth (repeated a number of times on this thread) that only the ‘cultural elite’ in Ireland care/own the Irish language.

In any case, it seems to me this ‘cultural elite’ phrase used on this thread is typical ‘boards.ie’ type narrative. Divorced from mainstream opinion and trotted out by certain posters who have an agenda against the Irish language.

gormdubhgorm · 06-10-2021 07:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981865#Comment_117981865

Haha 😂

https://youtu.be/rAS4ACnfbkA

lawred2 · 06-10-2021 07:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

It's our native language. It's your problem if it bothers you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-10-2021 07:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985271#Comment_117985271

Not really.

lawred2 · 06-10-2021 07:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985362#Comment_117985362

Is it someone else's problem? 😐️

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-10-2021 07:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985396#Comment_117985396

I dont see it as my native language, why world it be a problem?

Wibbs · 06-10-2021 09:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985271#Comment_117985271

Native language is a more complex term than it first appears. Many if not most nation states in the world have more than one language native to their country. Sometimes they're actually native in the sense that they largely sprung up there, others are imports. Indeed many if not most languages are imports, it just depends on how far back you go. Irish itself or its earliest form replaced, likely on the back of farmers coming in, the previous language(s) spoken here. English itself came from the Germanic speaking tribes of places like modern day Denmark and Holland and over time slowly enough replaced the local Britannic languages(many of which would have been related to Irish of the time). Of course modern speakers of both would be hard pressed to understand those early versions. Italy has a few, most of which developed independently from Latin arriving in kinda similar places. It also has bits of German and French. Spain has around four IIRC, including Basque which is about as native as it gets. The romance languages are feckin' blow ins compared to Basque. 😁 Spanish and Catalan are Latin derivatives, borne on the back of invasion, conquest and trade by those pesky Italians with notions. Much like English was here(minus the Italians). The passage of time is such that any irritation or politic of its foreign imposition is long gone. That's one area where Hiberno English differs. As movements of people and ideas became easier with both innovations in transport and the printing press, local languages and dialects got swallowed up or went extinct and one or two main languages got the nod and were themselves standardised(early printed English, French, Italian, Spanish, German etc spellings were all over the place). Even Irish has dialiects and has become standardised in many ways. Spelling for a start was simplified in the 20th century.

So "native language" is a bit of a rabbit hole and a deep one at that. You'd want a neck as hard as a jockey's bollocks to tell a Spaniard they're speaking the language of the invader and it's not really a native language, merely a dialect of Italian, but some Irish speakers say similar about English. What's that line? Is fear Gaeilge briste na Bearla clsste, broken Irish is better than good English or something along those lines anyway. That's politics, not communication.

English has been spoken here for over four hundred years(longer if you count earlier Saxon derivatives). I'd be willing to bet that many of the Irish speakers here would find Shakespeare's 16th century English easier to read than a similar text in Early Modern Irish. And Hiberno English is spoken by pretty much every single Irish person alive today and some of the finest literature ever commited to the page in that language was wrtten by Irish writers. It's pretty native at this stage.

ireallydontknow · 06-10-2021 09:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985794#Comment_117985794

I've been meaning to unsubscribe from this thread. Glad I waited till after your post.

riclad · 06-10-2021 09:33PM

go on youtube ,theres loads of people who certainly do not speak english perfectly, hows it gooenn press the buhhhon, instead of press the button, g,s and t,s are dropped or maybe they do not exist for those people , I even see ads where they pronounce some words incorrectly .if someone wants to revive the irish language please build a time machine and go back to 1800 with unlimited funds .ordinary people do not speak perfectly, real life is not the bbc or rte.trying to get most people to speak irish in daily life is impossible, its like trying to hold back the sea or stop any irish person from drinking beer or smoking .

the uk and ireland have always being close. even republicans watch british tv and soccer .and listen to uk pop music .the question is how much money the government will spend on pointless virtue signalling like having train times spoken in irish and english.most irtish people will never speak irish after school unless its part of their job.Language changes constantly over time as new words are invented and words become irrelevant and unused.if we went back to 1200 we probably would not understand the older forms of english used.i have heard americans saying they cannot understand some irish people who speak english with regional accents and use local slang.if the government wanted to revive the irish language ,id say pay streamers and gamers on youtube, twitch to speak irish, and make tik toks in irish.theres a reason why apart from tg4 95 per cent of irish programs are made in english, eg most viewers would not understand a comedy or a drama made in irish .even in the 70s most irish homes in rural areas, had an aerial so they could watch british tv ,itv,bbc, before cable tv was invented .anyone is free to learn irish and speak it if they want to and good luck to them .

gormdubhgorm · 06-10-2021 10:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985810#Comment_117985810

In other words you are only glad to find a post that you can find some semblance of agreement in. So you can cherry pick bits out of context (in future) from the post above to suit your narrative

This basically means you can confirm your clear bias. And gives you some sort of answer that you can ‘hang on’ to.

But you still have not seemed to figure out why Irish language signage and a bit in emails are a problem for you yet?

And why you seem to have this prejudice. Based on myths of ‘cultural elites’ and so on?

Those reading this thread are still none the wiser why it gets you emotive? Cause and root etc? Or is it to remain a secret?

Or do you simply not know why you believe there is a ‘creeping prominence’ of Irish? When the reality says otherwise.

English spoken by the majority and so on. And you can hardly call it a creeping prominence (since the foundation of the state) because if anything use of Irish has regressed as community language.

Yet somehow you view simple things as signage as some sort of ‘take over’. Bit of a warped viewpoint in light of the bigger picture IMO.

Furthermore you do not seem to know why you believe that interest in the Irish Language is the preserve of ‘zealots and cultural elites’?

This is despite the reality telling a different story. As I have previously illustrated with examples.

It is clear to me most people in Ireland would miss Irish if it was not there. Even if they do not speak it regularly.

That is just the way the majority of public opinion is. There is a pride in it still. This is true at many peoples various levels of engagement with the language either in people’s past or present. Most would miss it if it was gone. There would be a certain amount of guilt as well.

The signage and emails etc are far from ‘creeping’. This the real irony. It is based on legislation pushing 20 years old!

IMO it is an admission of defeat by the relevant authorities (approved by the majority of the Irish people) as it gives up on Irish language immersion hope. And merely replaced it with a veneer a gentle reminder of the Irish language.

It is stagnation in my view there is no ‘creeping’ or daily life ‘prominence’. In other words use of Irish as a community language.

But for some reason known only to yourself this ‘veneer’ seems like a threat to you and a step to far. I find it a baffling viewpoint and irrational.

lawred2 · 06-10-2021 11:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985794#Comment_117985794

I didn't say English wasn't a native tongue

Upforthematch · 06-10-2021 11:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986169#Comment_117986169

Why does the Irish legislation signal 'defeat' for promotion of the language or immersion? It's a fairly expensive 'veneer' if that's all it is. To me it's a rights issue that the state is only catching up on 100 years too late!

The native community dimension is gone now but Irish itself isn't going anywhere.

oookkkaaayyy · 06-10-2021 11:48PM

Bang of orange off this thread.

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 12:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985903#Comment_117985903

it has cultural value and that's a good thing

Of course 👍

how much money the government will spend on pointless virtue signalling like having train times spoken in irish and english.

When you break it down ... speaking train times in Irish costs next to nothing. Road signs: the plan as far as I'm aware is to give parity to both languages -italics will be normal text instead I presume. Would actually cost very little as signs will be changed when signs are being repaired/replaced. - Basically the 'waste of money' argument in this regard is a non-runner.

most Irish people will never speak Irish after school unless its part of their job

The same applies to most other subjects. It is good to have a spread of knowledge in different disciplines as various faculties of mind and spirit can be cultivated.

if the government wanted to revive the irish language ,id say pay streamers and gamers on youtube, twitch to speak irish, and make tik toks in irish.

That's not actually a bad idea :-)

most viewers would not understand a comedy or a drama made in irish .even in the 70s most irish homes in rural areas, had an aerial so they could watch british tv ,itv,bbc,

TV has certainly eroded elements of our culture here and accross the world. Most of it is hardly inspiring - 'bread and circuses' (grand designs...an exception :-) ) . Most homes in rural areas just got RTE 1 & 2 as far as I'm aware. City folk got the the other channels. You can see how culture (in general) is shifting with all the Americanisms picked up and used in English. Most stuff on TV is British/American - seems a kind of cultural bombardment and changes how we speak esp. kids "That's so awsome!" 🙄

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 12:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985794#Comment_117985794

So "native language" is a bit of a rabbit hole and a deep one at that.

Absolutely! The very meaning of 'native' can mean different things. Will mull over some of your points - interesting read all the same!

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 12:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985164#Comment_117985164

The vid was interesting! Seems like Ming the Merciless has a little mercy in him after all.

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 12:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981889#Comment_117981889

On learning languages & fluency:

But does that really matter? I'll never sound like a native speaker, but I'm knocking a lot of fun out of the attempt.

When we stop being overly serious about things it becomes so much easier to learn ...anything!

cj maxx · 07-10-2021 12:49AM

Those ranting and complaining about irish being used for signage etc remind me of the Dubs I knew ,who called gaelic football bogball. Until of course Dublin started winning, then they were fans . Living in the North now I actually miss the cupla focal

07-10-2021 12:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982366#Comment_117982366

If you don't want to try a different perspective, I can't make you. But I can express the opinion that by trying a different perspective you gain a broader understanding - including understanding of the motivations of the good, bad and indifferent Irish speaking people of your acquaintance. I've no time for golf either; but I can state that with a really high level of confidence because I put many hours into playing it before deciding that it wasn't for me, just as I did with both GAA codes and a few other hobbies I can think of. But 'tis a busy life, and each to their own.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I didn't say that you clearly believe that Irish is the country's own language; I said you clearly believe that Ireland is the language's own country. That's a very different thing, and most of what you have to say about English or French is interesting, but it isn't relevant to the question of Ireland being the Irish language's own country. But also, if you don't believe that, what were you thinking of when you said:

"I'm still not going to be a native speaker. In my own country."

If you don't believe that Ireland is the Irish language's home country, those last four words are unnecessary and in fact fit very badly with the rest of the point being made.

You also went on to say that the lack of perfection wouldn't bother you. That makes complete sense - in contrast to your point earlier which seemed to question the value of your learning Irish because you wouldn't learn it to a sufficient extent to sound like a native speaker. Hence my question.

07-10-2021 01:01AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985249#Comment_117985249

I was in a boozer in Gleann Cholm Cille one night a few years ago and someone sang that without any intro or explanation. A brand-new learner from Germany was perplexed and asked me if the song was about a certain Cork brand of stout.

07-10-2021 01:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985271#Comment_117985271

At the risk of repeating myself, it isn't our native language, and I say that as a person who speaks it as much as I can and who wants to see and hear a lot more of it about the place. Referring to it in that way is inaccurate, and makes it harder to do an honest job of encouraging more people to use the bits they have.

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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