Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

I'm seeing that line taken by Owen Jones quite a lot from people, including friends of mine, who are all EXTREMELY careful to avoid being labelled an ardent 'remainer' but will say 'on balance I voted remain, but the EU is all a bit imperfect, unpalatable and in dire need of reform and.. blah blah.'

Just watch how carefully he reiterated how he respected the result of the referendum, people had good reasons for voting leave and so on.

It's like there's a terror of saying that you're in favour of EU membership anymore, even amongst polite society in England.

That's also a very clear illustration of where the Labour Party sits on this and is why Labour hasn't and won't come along to save the day and push for a remain or even a rejoin vote.

I remember working there in the 00s (before Brexit was even word) and one of the things that used to quite surprise me was how vitriolic some of the anti-EU or anti-Euro currency commentary was. There was a certain element that would just begin foaming at the mouth when they mentioned the word. It's fed by the tabloids, but it's also just a bubble that feeds itself and has been doing so for decades.

For many of the people I encountered it wasn't a discussion of economics or practicalities, they simply hated Europe and there was no real discussion of why or anything else. It was just a visceral dislike of the concept of being part of something that they felt they didn't have absolute control over. I think it's very much an inability to get beyond their empire era. The concept finding compromise, consensus, corporative points and so on just wasn't in their worldview at all and there is absolutely a sense of exceptionalism and superiority that stems from that too.

I'm not saying it's everyone in England, and I think that's unfair. It's a particular tranche of society that is associated with the right wing of the Tories, UKIP and other elements that all exist in that area. They send it up themselves quite often in comedy. I mean, characters like Alf Garnett didn't come from nowhere. However, it's there and I think it's all too easy gloss over it. Right wing tabloid newspapers don't buy and read themselves - there's an audience. Which came first, the chicken or the egg... that's another debate!

I think sometimes in Ireland we have rather distorted view of England because how we interact with it. We've relatively little modern contact with 'middle England' or non-urban northern England, rather most of our contact tends to be with London and some of the other bigger cities, as those are the kinds of places that people might have spent time living/working or perhaps emigrated to for a time and they are also they're the places we visit.

How many of us regularly spend time in northern English towns? There might have been more contact with those in the 1950s when they were industrial boom towns, but not today.

Then the other distortion is that we view England and British politics almost exclusively through the medium of television, because British terrestrial television and channels like Sky News are carried commercially on cable, IPTV and satellite platforms here. British television news (with the exception of the very recent launch of GB News) is by and large very balanced, regulated and presents much more considered views than print or radio. The majority of us do not read English tabloid newspapers, the versions sold here are different, and we by and large don't listen to a lot of English radio, particularly not talk radio. The clips from the likes of LBC and so on, are mostly coming from social media or people who are specifically interested in topics like Brexit posting online. Perhaps we imagine we've more understanding of England and English politics than we really do, because of that level of familiarity through television.

I was hoping that Brexit wouldn't happen, but I had a feeling in my gut that it wasn't a sure thing, yet I think most people looking on from an Irish, or indeed a London, point of view all seemed totally shocked when it passed and continue to be shocked at how English politics is continuing to drive an extremely hard and often self destructive line. I think we're still not quite 'getting' how deeply embedded in English political culture this is.

There isn't going to be a pragmatic outcome anytime soon and the shrill, paranoid, vitriolic language will continue as they go on to blame the EU, blame foreigners, blame Brussels when the reality of not being in the EU has practical consequences.

How long that goes on for is anyone's guess, but I would suspect at least a few decades.

The point being made on ETIAS is ridiculous too. The system is a full decade in development, having being launched as a proposal in 2011 and is due to come into effect next year, for everyone who's a non-EU / non-Schengen passport holder and has a visa waiver into the Schengen area. It's very similar to the US, Canadian and Australian systems and even to one of the proposals that Priti Patel and others have been bouncing around for the UK itself and it applies universally. It's nothing to do with nor is about the UK or Brexit in any way, yet in the commentators' heads in England, EVERYTHING is about them, and revenge and plots against them. If anything, it's just a view into their mindset rather than anything to do with reality.

I'd see commentary like that in much the way I'd see someone's interpretation of inkblots. You can tell a lot about the political culture you're dealing with.

Fintan O'Toole certainly provided an interesting analysis of it. I think it's definitely an area where we need to be careful not to project our world view and by doing so misinterpret theirs.

We speak a common language, we by and large get each other's sense of humour and many aspects of each other's cultures, but when it comes to politics and how we see and define ourselves, things start to diverge quite drastically. One is a former imperial power, the other is a former colony. We share a common, and very deeply intertwined history, but we played entirely opposite roles. It's always one area where familiarity does not imply shared perspective and it can be risky to assume it does. I have found it rather jarring to see attempts by right wing British parties and movements to appeal to Irish nationalism, without having the slightest clue of what it is or how its values might be quite literally the polar opposite to theirs on many issues, particularly that of having a warm and fuzzy feeling towards empire and the commonwealth and so on.