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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments



  • I guess the point I'm making is that if the union really 'was' cherished, the England fans would boo all visiting teams but make an exception for the Scots as they see them as brothers and sisters. Instead, they were treated as if they were as 'foreign' as all the continental sides. In the context of Brexit and the whole UK leaving the EU, the sight of Scotland being booed was a striking one.

    Which also raises the question of what the Scots are supposed to think when they see and hear that. It does have shades of the former Yugoslavia in the period before it began to break up.





  • The idea that the Scots are delicate wallflowers offended by having their anthem booed by the English and who themselves never engage in rabid anti-English hooliganism is also charmingly innocent.

    Football is tribal,rivalry is strong and passions are sometimes aroused to the point of abuse and violence.It happens on every continent on earth.Why pretend otherwise ?





  • I'd also question whether the union really is cherished.My impression is that most English people would be perfectly happy for Scotland and NI to leave it.Both provinces are a huge financial drain on England,particularly the South-East,which fuels most of the UK economy.









  • The Scots would have fully expected to be booed at Wembley - I'm not sure though I see much difference between Brexit UK and the former Yugoslavia in the years before the break up. Relations between England and the devolved nations genuinely 'are' pretty bad (thanks mainly to the election of an English nationalist government at Westminster with a huge majority).



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  • ...having their anthem booed by the rabble element of the English football supporters...





  • There has always been a degree of dislike between Scotland and England but that disappears during wars when all fought side by side.I know this from information passed down by relatives.





  • Economics is what's holding the union together (for now). The people who voted "No" in the 2014 Scottish Referendum :

    My questions on the issues that mattered most in people’s voting decisions suggest the No campaign was right to focus on the currency and the other uncertainties of independence. More than half (57%) of No voters said the pound was one of the most important factors in their decision, and the biggest overarching reason for their decision was that “the risks of becoming independent looked too great when it came to things like the currency, EU membership, the economy, jobs and prices” (a more powerful reason for most No voters’ decision than “a strong attachment to the UK” or the promise of the best of both worlds with guaranteed extra powers for the Scottish Parliament). Pensions, the NHS and uncertainties about tax and public spending were also mentioned by at least one third of No voters.


    link


    Similarly the biggest impediment to a Border poll passing in Northern Ireland is the significant minority of nationalist voters who would vote against it due to concerns over the loss of the NHS and the economic injection that London gives to the region currently.


    In a nutshell, the people who matter electorally are not sticking with the Union due to their love of that Union. It just comes down to brass tacks.





  • For sure, but one would have thought that Brexit might have been a bit of a game changer. In times past, if the Scottish anthem had been booed at Wembley, nobody would even have batted an eyelid but for it to happen in the year when 'the United Kingdom' left the EU to go it alone on the world stage is quite striking.

    In other words, it could have been dismissed in the past as a bit of banter or sporting rivalry but to be happening now against the backdrop of Brexit and the quest for Scottish independence means it takes on a different significance.





  • And back to war to justify the State's existence.



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  • Scotland is a country not a province. All of England itself and Wales except the London area and the south of England are a financial drain.


    New figures show how London and the south subsidise the UK | Financial Times (ft.com)





  • Very interesting from Dominic Cumming's today. I've long argued our place in the single market is fragile and it's quite likely we'll be out of the SM within months.

    What Cumming's says has also been eluded to by Tony Connelly in his reporting particularly in recent months.





  • But that has no relevance to what actually happened? Cummings when you look at the tweets beforehand is saying this may/may not have happened if "we'd taken over No. 10." It isn't that interesting at all. It is a Twitter exchange on a hypothetical situation that didn't happen.





  • Unfortunately Ireland's future looks once again to be decided by Britain.

    If they don't respect the deal (and the EU continues to take no action as they are and I have warned about appeasement of the tories) I don't see any other option. We'll be defacto out of the single market.

    We won't even be asked. France and the Netherlands will put in the checks at their ports to uphold the integrity of the SM.

    That's my view and the reason it's so emotive for some is because I suspect they know it's true.

    Next you'll say "but the EU are taking legal action"

    The Tories don't care.





  • Tony Connelly wrote explicitly about this outcome in a recent RTE blogs post. I posted it in the thread before with the link. I'll look for it.

    I don't see a search.





  • There is another option though.


    That is for the EU to draw up a range of trade or economic sanctions against the United Kingdom and let be known that if they unilaterally deviate again such sanctions like tarriffs will be put in place.


    That is the only thing the Tories will understand. We are dealing with a govt in London that is engaged in gangster politics and the EU has been far too weak thus far.


    The approach needs to harden considerably.



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  • I had a funny thought today. The UK has really isolated itself. The current Whitehouse is not close to the current UK government, obviously they are pushing themselves away from Europe. When Covid is over and normal international relations return I think the UK will begin to realise that they have successfully made themselves irrelevant.

    When the next world crises appears and European leaders are meeting to agree a response etc. where will the UK be? at home looking on, too small to go alone on anything, pretending to belong to some bigger club but not. I think it will be a huge shock.

    Time I believe will show the disaster of Boris sucking up to Trump (and May before him). They are stuck with three more years of Biden and presumably a less friendly US.






  • Lots of Deja vu, the EU will respond when it is appropriate. This is not when you want them to do, before the UK has ripped up the TCA and WA and NIP. It will be after this happens, and only after they have consulted with the UK to make sure they want to proceed with the path they have set.





  • What makes you think they don't already?

    And what makes you think the UK actually intends to breach anything now when it quietly backed down all of the many other previous times it blustered and bluffed?

    The Tory party are not stupid, they know where the money really lies, which is why you see stuff like this quietly being brought in:

    UK government orders councils to display EU flag as condition of receiving Covid high street cash | The Independent





  • Well exactly. A hard border is the most likely, realistic "apocalypse" scenario, Ireland wouldn't simply jettison its own economic stability for NI, nor would the EU endanger its own standing. It'd likely fast track a return to the Troubles but that's another matter. Otherwise globally, it'd be open season for China, Russia and any other rival with more competent political machines to push the EU into abandoning its internal mechanics. While Ireland would become beholden to British political or economic whims. Maybe that's Kermit's preference.

    And that's leaving aside the idea Ireland and its people would simply accept this change. As fash speculates, would it require a referendum? In which case, no chance it would pass and the Irish people self-destruct their stability for an open border.



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  • Oh sure that's alright then. Just have regular wars and the Union will survive.



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