Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117690481#Comment_117690481

From 2016 so plenty of time to sort it before the G7 meeting - The county has received £1bn of aid over the past 15 years with more than £400m in the pipeline until 2020 because of its relatively weak economy. - "It's Ok though we can carry on being serfs in a theme park for second home owners and their children."

Last year Cornwall applied for £700m over 10 years from the Shared Prosperity Fund to replace EU money , but if shared in the same way as the previous Growth Deal, Cornwall would receive just £1.8m in the first year.

only county in England to qualify for emergency EU funding, it is actually one of the poorest parts of Europe. but locals can't afford houses.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117690845#Comment_117690845

I feel conflicted. I do agree with what you say, to a point, but remove the extreme from the conversation as easy dismissal, and can a population know to look for something they were unaware existed in the first place? I do hold to account the demographics who stubbornly refuse to give way to the idea brexit was a mistake, but can't condemn either a misled population stirred up from 40 years of malignant propaganda and information repression. Or indeed, promises money would be replaced.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117691307#Comment_117691307

Your balanced view does you a lot of credit.

But opinions will inevitably be shaped by personal experience, to a greater or lesser extent and, as a Brexodee EU27 myself, I find myself siding with Nody without the least effort : so long as exclusionary measures against EU27inUK (who, speaking of political promises, were expressly and repeatedly promised that “nothing would change for them” in relation to the referendum outcome) remain the politically-acceptable norm in the UK, I wouldn’t pee on anyone of them if they were on fire.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117691307#Comment_117691307

I feel like you're in a sort of chicken and egg scenario where you can pin lots of blame on politicians and the media but then said individuals and organisations are there solely by the gift of the public. The British view of the EU has, to put it charitably, always been purely transactional.

The political class in this country, mostly the right have continually papered over deep structural problems because it's simply easier to do so than to give people from economically abandoned communities (I despise the term "left behind". One leaves behind inanimate objects, not millions of human beings) any sort of a real voice beyond the odd xenophobic vox pop for the media.

You have a resurgent English nationalism which led millions to vote for UKIP in 2015 only to have their voice suppressed by a broken voting system that was invented centuries ago. We've also seen the Tory party pin the blame on Europe for any unpopular policies they've introduced for decades.

Again, it's one of those where you can't completely disentangle the liars and those who are lied to. You'd probably have to go back to the war to find a government with an actual mandate. Since then, whoever takes 40+% of the right votes wins a staggering majority.

The information was all there of course. Any sort of examination showed the Brexiter narrative to be as resilient as wet toilet paper but then the narrative wasn't the point. It was about outrage, nationalism and culture and not economics, trade or getting a better deal.

tanko

Anyone who was dumb enough to be “deceived into voting for Brexit” by the likes of Digby Jones, Bojo, Farage and all the other useless corrupt liars deserve everything that’s coming to them. Maybe in future they’ll think for themselves but i doubt that they’re capable of doing this.

Enzokk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117695500#Comment_117695500

It's not that simple. the Tories have been in charge for 2/3rds of the last 70 years, yet they have never been close to 50% of the vote the last few elections. We have been commenting on the ridiculous FPTP system but seeing as it ensures the Conservatives stay in charge with 40% of the vote there is no need for them to change it. Add in the biased media and you have a recipe for disaster really, there is no checks or balances for the ruling party and it is easy to sell the party line to people.

Look at our resident Remainer, Rob. He parrots the Leave and media talking points when he is not in favour of the result or the party. If someone that is against Brexit and the current government is gaslighted into arguing their points, what chance is there for anyone else?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117690775#Comment_117690775

They're not few and far between, they're not there at all unless it's a minisculue EU flag in the corner that nobody will ever see. Meanwhile, the Tory party boasted of scrapping roaming charges despite it being an EU directive. Said scrapping will soon be reversed for the British if it has not been done so already.

Regarding Cornwall (God, I hate this new version of the site), it's a perfect example of a case in point. Locals grumble about the EU because of the propaganda they've imbibed over decades. The same people stamp their feet and oppose any new development and then moan when the next generation ships themselves elsewhere when they're priced out. The result is a shrinking population because posh Londoners have bought up all the properties while the withdrawal of EU subsidies has put the place "in the red", as you pointed out. It's one of those places that needs serious investment but has voted for both Brexit and the Tories. A friend is from North Cornwall. She brought a mutual Belgian acquaintance of ours to a meeting at the local parish hall where he got the same reaction from the locals one might expect for a unicorn. There seems to be little enough in the way of cultural diversity down there and yet plenty would buy into the migration narrative.

Strazdas

The UK was effectively a very dysfunctional member of the EU. Didn't know what the EU was or even its purpose and aims, how it worked or how it was funded. Didn't understand its rules and how they were incorporated into national law. Who was to blame? A not very well educated public certainly, but also a useless media and political class who knew next to nothing about the EU.

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696590#Comment_117696590

Considering many posters here are constantly mentioning how the UK played such a big part in the EU.Also,the UK was described by Carnegie Europe as`one of the big three players`-alongside France and Germany, I find your comments questionable.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696994#Comment_117696994

I think the civil service in Whitehall understood the EU and did most of the work, along with the administrative people they sent to Brussels.

The politicians, clearly not so much. e.g., David Davis (who if the cards had fallen slightly differently could have been PM a few times) was either lying or had total ignorance of the EU when he said his famous 'first port of call will be Berlin, not Brussels, to strike a deal'. I think it was the latter.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696590#Comment_117696590

I think that's unfair. The UK political establishment knew all this quite well and participated in the EU.

They just made a point of lying to their electorate about all this constantly cause it was convenient for them. This is entirely a domestic issue.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117697082#Comment_117697082

The civil service, MEPs and the more intelligent members of the political establishment would definitely have been au fait with the EU and how it worked. Large numbers of Tory MPs, the media and the public : absolutely clueless.

This ignorance was fine as long as they were inside the EU (they didn't need to know the details), but as soon as they started thinking they didn't actually need the EU and would do just great outside it, that's when the whole thing fell apart. It would be akin to a footballer at Man City or Chelsea thinking he can have just as successful a career if he signs for Rochdale.

Fly_away

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117697082#Comment_117697082

No I don't think this is right. The UK did not participate in the EU anything like a normal EU state. Particularly when the Tories are in power (as they have been for nearly 15 years now). You would regularly have anti EU MPs holding cabinet positions (think Grayling, Patterson, Villiers, Gove etc.) and they regularly sent lackeys to EU meetings etc. and had minimal involvement themselves.

Cameron as a PM was also mildly eurosceptic and didn't even have much interest in getting to know EU leaders, never mind participating in pan EU schemes. He only cared about the EU insofar as how he saw it could benefit the UK alone.

Fly_away

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117697070#Comment_117697070

Yes, certainly the latter. Davis genuinely believed that stuff! Which is shocking when you consider he was a Europe minister for a time..

But it shows you how disengaged ministers were with the EU (particularly Tory ones), that you could hold such a position and come away with such fundamental misunderstandings...

Fly_away

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696994#Comment_117696994

They played a big part in sofar as they were big enough to drum up support from cultural allies to *stop* things from happening that they didn't like and promote the introduction of regs that would directly benefit them (particularly in the financial services sector).

They were quite obstructive when it came to other pan EU policies. For eg., it's widely accepted that the UK would've vetoed the EU Covid recovery fund.

BlitzKrieg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117698637#Comment_117698637

This is partly true yes at least for Cameron's conservative party as early as 2005/2006 he took the conservatives out of the EPP (the largest party in the European parliament) and went and formed their own group as the ECR essentially walking away from the active core of the European Parliament and sitting on the far reaches of the parliament and the EU much like Irish and most other European politics relies very heavily on politicians coming to compromises and coalitions etc, this seems to have directly affected his governments entire attitude to the EU going forward as they took the same approach towards the other bodies of the EU once they were in power.

Fly_away

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117698947#Comment_117698947

Yes, Cameron pulling the Tories out of the EPP had a detrimental impact on general attitudes towards the EU and policy goals. Networking and politicking in the EP is very important with regards getting movement on your legislative goals and agendas..

I think Cameron made the promise to withdraw from the EPP when he was running for leader because he saw it as a cheap way of throwing red meat to the the eurosceptic wing of the party, but it wasn't cost free..

ambro25

From the Commission today, the EU’s ETIAS for UK passport holders is on track to start at end 2022.

https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1422515683301134336?s=20

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117698686#Comment_117698686

Don't all EU members (especially the most powerful,Germany and France for example)lobby for what suits them and back in the day, didn't Ireland and the UK usually team up as they had similar interests?

Your comments about the covid recovery fund are pure speculation as the UK wasn't in the EU.

Fly_away

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117699418#Comment_117699418

Yes they do, but they also participate in pan EU integration projects in a way the UK didn't.

RE the UK would've vetoed the Covid recovery fund, it's more than speculation. Many senior figures have emphatically agree with this, including the UK's former permanent rep, Ivan Rogers.

https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/05/30/the-eus-recovery-fund-is-a-benefit-of-brexit

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117699418#Comment_117699418

We don't really need to consider hypotheticals though. There is the UKs record of last 10-15 years or so as a member. The UK didn't join Schengen. The UK didn't join the Euro either and was quite hostile to idea of it. The UK (despite not being in the Euro itself!) as far as I recall even blocked the establishment of mechanisms to stabilise the Euro during currency crisis and the Eurozone countries had to go outside EU structures using Enhanced cooperation and do their own thing. The UK always was in support of expanding the EU ever eastwards + more and more decreasingly suitable countries joining (Turkey) to weaken the cohesion of the EU and dilute power of the France/Germany combo. Few years before the referendum the UKs main supposedly centre right party deliberately píssed in the faces of similar parties (like FG here, or Christian Democrats in Germany) all over Europe and joined the far right/authoritarian group (ECR) in European parliament. The UK was an important country because on a European scale it is big and rich, but its leaders/politicians IMO have had a very different vision for the EU (to France/Germany) for a long time and got increasingly uncomfortable with it and generally hostile/obstructive as integration deepened.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700654#Comment_117700654

The UK has a large economy etc, but it has been fighting and struggling to deal with fading relevance for a long time now. I believe the EU has long been seen as something that was expediting the end of "British exceptionalism".

timetogo1

I keep thinking it's madness what the UK have done with brexit.

Then I read articles like this and see it can get madder.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-red-tape-damage-uk-manufacturing-factories-b1895077.html

At what stage are they going to say "hey lads, maybe this isn't the best idea"

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704036#Comment_117704036

They already have. Hence the continued complaints that the deal that they pursued and signed is actually a terrible deal.

Still no benefits, still not even a plan or a hint of how any benefits can accrue.

Currently they are busy competing with each other over who can blame the EU the most.

If there were any benefits you can be certain that the Torirs, and their media partners, would be screaming it everyday. Just like they did with the vaccine success.

That there are hardly any headlines about the positive aspects of Brexit, and any that tru usually end up as having nothing to do with Brexit or simply replacing what they had before, tells you everything about the reality.

But it never had anything to do with positives of Brexit, at least in terms of the general populace. The reasons for Brexit, lack of oversight, ability to reduce regulations etc, still exist and as such Brexit is still a great idea.

The general population won't start to question it until such time as a main political leader actually starts to seriously raise questions. And, at the moment, there doesn't seem anyone willing to face the inevitable backlash from Brexiteers and brexit media to actually put forward the fact that Brexit is a disaster.

Until that happens, even those that can see the reality have nowhere to go in terms of advancing the idea so stop and reverse.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704036#Comment_117704036

In around 2 to 3 weeks’ time, according to the Road Haulage Association.

https://www.fleetpoint.org/logistics/supply-chain/uk-supply-chain-faces-collapse-in-two-to-three-weeks/

Seasoft

I'm waiting for either DE or DM or both to claim how Team GBs Olympics successes were due to Brexit.

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704295#Comment_117704295

Ha Johnson will release some "look over there" story and the UK media will ignore the important stuff.

Then the Express will spin it as the EUs fault or a victory for Britain 😀

That seems to be the procedure so far.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704753#Comment_117704753

Meanwhile up North, not a sliced pan of Ormo or a sausage will be out of place.

Larbre34

I think, for balance, we should say that business has never been better for the producers of 3ft x 2ft photos of fresh produce, used where actual fresh produce would normally be displayed.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704753#Comment_117704753

There is zero doubt of that…but if the RHA Chief Exec’s fears come to pass and supply chains do collapse in August, I’m confident that no amount of third party-blaming and spinning will make Brits forget about their growling stomachs, as the nutritional value of sovereignty gets severely stress-tested.

All other Brexit things being equal, I’m finding this particular issue quite worrying, tbh. The potential for widespread civil disorder is non-trivial.