N5 - Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge [underway]

Reuben1210 · 10-06-2021 11:44am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yeah, Tarmonbarry is left behind. Unfortuately a small bypass would be very expensive cos you'd need a very big Shannon crossing to sort it out. I doubt it'll happen anytime soon, I can't see Tarmonbarry being a bottleneck or that scheme being justifiable.

Maybe it could be built as part of the proposed M4 Mullingar - Roosky Scheme...

CatInABox · 10-06-2021 11:49am

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Does it tie-in East or West of Frenchpark?

West. It travels south of Frenchpark, and ties in about 5 km west of the town, near the airfield.

delldelivery · 10-06-2021 11:59am

Could be a boost for Elphin.

And a negative for Tulsk.

Always interesting to see how bypasses affect the towns.

Noone wants a bottlekneck, yet all that passing traffic brings a lot of trade.

On the N4 I'd say a bypass would actually enhance the villages of Ballinalack and Rathowen, well except for the owners of the Texaco. Who seem to be extending again so presumably no fear of them being bypassed in the short term.

joujoujou · 10-06-2021 4:04pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

[...] the people are likely grateful to be getting a decent road. [...]

We are, indeed.

delldelivery wrote: »

[...]
Always interesting to see how bypasses affect the towns.
[...] all that passing traffic brings a lot of trade
[...]

Ballaghaderreen is still alive and getting on pretty well. :cool:

Ms jou worked in there for years, and believe it or not, passing traffic was just it - passing. Most of money they make on locals.

Cosmo Kramer · 10-06-2021 4:34pm

Have to say I've never felt the need to stop in any of those villages or towns on the way down the N5. Unless it's petrol or a quick stop at a shop they don't offer too much in the way or facilities - restaurants, toilets and so on, so you tend to just keep going until you get to Castlebar. I'd say the positives will outweigh the negatives for those places.

L1011 · 10-06-2021 5:39pm

The Westport works are also visible under construction, yet the imagery near me still shows green fields for housing estates that have people living in them, let alone broken ground.

I used to stop in Strokestown for dinner in the Percy French a fair bit, but that was mostly before the Longford Bypass opened and made it that much quicker to home at peak times. Bypasses have killed a lot of roadhouse restaurant/pubs and town petrol stations but not much else. Place I used to stop between Ballinasloe and Athlone had stopped doing food within a year of the M6, place I used to stop on the N7 closed down and so on.

Mullinabreena · 10-06-2021 6:59pm

joujoujou wrote: »

Ballaghaderreen is still alive and getting on pretty well. :cool:

I think the town is dying a death. There has been some positives out comes like Flannery's corner having less traffic but I think the N5 bypass didn't help the town over all. Although I don't think a bypass was the biggest factor for the town's downfall. Maybe a few trees getting planted around the square will bring some life to the town...

10-06-2021 7:03pm

It won't benefit DG restaurant in Tulsk tbh, but as mentioned above, it'll survive based on the local community sustaining local businesses, as should be the norm. It's currently thriving, having recently extended its carpark. Tulsk will still act as a major stop on the N61, Sligo to Athlone. The N5/N61 junction will be rendered obsolete, massively aiding road safety at this dangerous crossroads. Access to the primary school and church will be much safer.

Strokestown also won't lose out too much. The main commercial area is Elphin Street, which was off the N5 anyway. The broad expanse of Main Street (the widest street in Ireland) is largely residential. Traffic issues at the secondary should become more manageable and the old route can be repurposed for sustainable transport and whatever remnants of local traffic that will remain. The filling station at Scania will lose out but again, local people will still need petrol and diesel. I've never had issues with traffic in Strokestown until today ironically, where there was an accident involving a lorry near the GAA club. Such incidents won't happen after this is built.

Ballinagare is dying a death the last 15 years. This bypass won't make any difference to it. It might actually entice people to live in the village as this section of the N5 will become extremely quiet once bypassed.

Frenchpark will become a much safer, liveable and attractive place to live. Again, the filling station will lose out but it will adapt and survive as most do. The shockingly dangerous junction with the R361 will finally become a more manageable junction to manoeuvre.

Elphin will likely benefit the most from this new alignment. It'll be located right off the new road and become a viable location to live close to the Dublin - Westport Road, as well as Carrick and the N61. I'd expect an Applegreen type services area coming down the line here. Either way, it makes Elphin much more accessible.

Tarmonbarry's minor traffic issues could be easily solved if Roscommon Co Co removed the flower beds located between Centra/the filling station and St. Barry's GAA, allowing a semblance of a filter lane for Centra.

In sum, this will be a major boost to accessing the West. There's a case to be made for repurposing the old road with proper cycle lanes. This road moved quickly through the planning process because:

1. There was little to no local or commercial opposition to it. I believe only one home will be demolished near Mantua. If anything, this project was and is enthusiastically supported by locals and politicians alike.

2. There was political capital to make this a high priority under Kenny, but really Michael Ring ensured this sailed through during his tenure as minister. There were few projects of this scale competing at the same pace through the statutory process.

3. Enormous credit is due to Roscommon Co Co. It worked doggedly to progress this through the planning stages as quickly as possible. The N5 has been a major source of concern in local politics for years, even though strategically & economically, this route isn't all that important for Roscommon. Mayo Co Co would have lobbied as heavily if not more so to resolve this last section of the N5.

10-06-2021 7:06pm

Mullinabreena wrote: »

I think the town is dying a death. There has been some positives out comes like Flannery's corner having less traffic but I think the N5 bypass didn't help the town over all. Although I don't think a bypass was the biggest factor for the town's downfall. Maybe a few trees getting planted around the square will bring some life to the town...

The county council is planning a public realm enhancement scheme right now. The usual nonsense has started among local politicians and business owners about loss of parking. It's the 1 town in the county that has absolutely no quality public spaces, seating or parks, similar to Ballyhaunis and other towns in mid Connacht.

KevRossi · 10-06-2021 8:15pm

If anyone has a few million under the mattress, then a major service station/food court could be built at the roundabout on the new N5/N61 junction. There's be a lot of traffic, it's a decent distance from Dublin/Castlebar/Sligo/Athlone to warrant a stop. No proper sit down fast food in the area, so it could do plenty of local business too.

KevRossi · 10-06-2021 8:17pm

spacetweek wrote: »

The archaeology for the scheme was so thorough that the route of the future road is already clearly visible on Google Maps.
You can easily see it in the aerial photography starting on the N5 to the east of Strokestown and heading northwest.

There's a good report here on souterrains they excavated on the route near Elphin. Found a few bodies there as well.

https://www.facebook.com/Rathcroghan/videos/661429764473290

Pete_Cavan · 10-06-2021 9:53pm

HabibiLibneni wrote: »

The county council is planning a public realm enhancement scheme right now. The usual nonsense has started among local politicians and business owners about loss of parking. It's the 1 town in the county that has absolutely no quality public spaces, seating or parks, similar to Ballyhaunis and other towns in mid Connacht.

Strokestown could have a very impressive main street if there was a bit of ambition. You could have perpendicular parking all along the road on either side and still have lots of space for nice public realm between that and the buildings. Lots of potential even with providing parking for all.

Mullinabreena · 10-06-2021 10:20pm

HabibiLibneni wrote: »

The county council is planning a public realm enhancement scheme right now. The usual nonsense has started among local politicians and business owners about loss of parking. It's the 1 town in the county that has absolutely no quality public spaces, seating or parks, similar to Ballyhaunis and other towns in mid Connacht.

To be honest I'd really welcome the enhancement plan, the town needs some investment. Although even with the town bypassed I think the amount of HVGs going though the town to the Mill and Dairy plant would still make any public area off putting.

Back on topic again. Is there a roundabout planned for the N5-N61 junction?

DumbBrunette · 10-06-2021 10:28pm

Yes, and also at Frenchpark and Strokestown.

Mullinabreena wrote: »

To be honest I'd really welcome the enhancement plan, the town needs some investment. Although even with the town bypassed I think the amount of HVGs going though the town to the Mill and Dairy plant would still make any public area off putting.

Back on topic again. Is there a roundabout planned for the N5-N61 junction?

Reuben1210 · 11-06-2021 1:39am

DumbBrunette wrote: »

Yes, and also at Frenchpark and Strokestown.

Thanks!

Does anyone have a link to a detailed map showing structures etc?

user1842 · 11-06-2021 7:59am

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Thanks!

Does anyone have a link to a detailed map showing structures etc?

http://www.roscommoncoco.ie/en/Services/Roads/Publications-and-Information/N5-Ballaghaderreen-to-Scramoge-Road-Project/Public-Information-Day/

Not the easiest to nagivate as the PDFs are big but it is detailed.

Pete_Cavan · 11-06-2021 8:08am

Mullinabreena wrote: »

To be honest I'd really welcome the enhancement plan, the town needs some investment. Although even with the town bypassed I think the amount of HVGs going though the town to the Mill and Dairy plant would still make any public area off putting.

Even with the N5 bypass coming, Strokestown could still do with a new road south of the town. This could also facilitate development of the town to the south. Unfortunately that level of investment doesn't seem likely on top of the N5.

user1842 · 11-06-2021 8:58am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Even with the N5 bypass coming, Strokestown could still do with a new road south of the town. This could also facilitate development of the town to the south. Unfortunately that level of investment doesn't seem likely on top of the N5.

I think the next thing the needs to be urgently done is the N26 to Ballina. They are now replacing the bridge outside Swinford (the current brigde is a joke) and need to just keep going. There is no need for a new offline road but just upgrade the current road like what they have done on some sections of the N17 near Claremorris.

paulbok · 11-06-2021 9:12am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Even with the N5 bypass coming, Strokestown could still do with a new road south of the town. This could also facilitate development of the town to the south. Unfortunately that level of investment doesn't seem likely on top of the N5.

There is a lot of boggy land out from Strokestown towards Dublin to meet the bypass and especially to the south out the Roscommon road. Originally the bypass was to swing out that direction but would have been an engineering nightmare with all the lakes, nevermind the heritage site issues towards Tulsk. That said, the initial stretch of the new road will be a tough slog through bogs as well for 2-3 km.
There was plans to develop the old football pitch at one time, but that didn't work out.
West and North of the town are far more suitable for development

theoneeyedman · 11-06-2021 10:46am

paulbok wrote: »

There is a lot of boggy land out from Strokestown towards Dublin to meet the bypass and especially to the south out the Roscommon road. Originally the bypass was to swing out that direction but would have been an engineering nightmare with all the lakes, nevermind the heritage site issues towards Tulsk. That said, the initial stretch of the new road will be a tough slog through bogs as well for 2-3 km.
There was plans to develop the old football pitch at one time, but that didn't work out.
West and North of the town are far more suitable for development

15 or 20 years ago, that pitch was 'sold' in maybe 100 shares, on speculation that the bypass/new road would go through it.

paulbok · 11-06-2021 2:06pm

theoneeyedman wrote: »

15 or 20 years ago, that pitch was 'sold' in maybe 100 shares, on speculation that the bypass/new road would go through it.

Don't mention the war

11-06-2021 11:56pm

I've checked the drawings and it doesn't appear that this project includes a realignment of Scramogue Cross. A section of land on the Scramogue side of the junction has been recently fenced off though. Does anyone know more about this?

I've also noticed there will be a surprisingly large number of local road accesses/ junctions on the new road. Any reason why this is so as it seems contrary to recent trends & TII guidelines.

user1842 · 12-06-2021 12:27am

HabibiLibneni wrote: »

I've checked the drawings and it doesn't appear that this project includes a realignment of Scramogue Cross. A section of land on the Scramogue side of the junction has been recently fenced off though. Does anyone know more about this?

I've also noticed there will be a surprisingly large number of local road accesses/ junctions on the new road. Any reason why this is so as it seems contrary to recent trends & TII guidelines.

Fully agree, compared to the Charlestown and Ballaghaderreen bypass, the road appears to be a lower standard junction/roundabout wise.

But then, beggers can't be choosers and im glad it's getting done.

Pete_Cavan · 12-06-2021 8:10am

paulbok wrote: »

There is a lot of boggy land out from Strokestown towards Dublin to meet the bypass and especially to the south out the Roscommon road. Originally the bypass was to swing out that direction but would have been an engineering nightmare with all the lakes, nevermind the heritage site issues towards Tulsk. That said, the initial stretch of the new road will be a tough slog through bogs as well for 2-3 km.
There was plans to develop the old football pitch at one time, but that didn't work out.
West and North of the town are far more suitable for development

I was talking about a road parallel to Church Street from around Texaco/scania to the existing N5 on the other side. A road in the town rather than a bypass of further south.

paulbok · 12-06-2021 9:37am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I was talking about a road parallel to Church Street from around Texaco/scania to the existing N5 on the other side. A road in the town rather than a bypass of further south.

A route that way would involve crossing the r368 and another local road as well as a small river, awkward but doable. A fair bit of the land around the river would be unsuitable for any development, its on a flood plain, so wouldn't open up much except for just bypassing the town itself. With the new road taking the bulk of the traffic off between those 2 end points, it would be unnecessary, as well as never getting the go ahead.
I did think before that if there was any other road built around the town, it would circle from north of the town to the n5, or whatever new designation it will have. A route fir that would really have to go entirely around the North of the town out the n5.
The r368 from Elphin is reall narrow through the town and if you meet a truck on that road in the town, someone has to pull in. If 2 trucks meet and there is no space to pull in, it can cause delays.
A lot of the trucks coming that way are from the local quarry and the bypass will take some of them out of the town, anything heading Longford direction anyway. Deliveries from the n5 to Elphin as well.

With regards to the service stations, I had heard the local Westward garage had looked into building a new service station on the new bypass, but don't know if it got any traction.

theoneeyedman · 12-06-2021 10:38am

paulbok wrote: »

A route that way would involve crossing the r368 and another local road as well as a small river, awkward but doable. A fair bit of the land around the river would be unsuitable for any development, its on a flood plain, so wouldn't open up much except for just bypassing the town itself. With the new road taking the bulk of the traffic off between those 2 end points, it would be unnecessary, as well as never getting the go ahead.
I did think before that if there was any other road built around the town, it would circle from north of the town to the n5, or whatever new designation it will have. A route fir that would really have to go entirely around the North of the town out the n5.
The r368 from Elphin is reall narrow through the town and if you meet a truck on that road in the town, someone has to pull in. If 2 trucks meet and there is no space to pull in, it can cause delays.
A lot of the trucks coming that way are from the local quarry and the bypass will take some of them out of the town, anything heading Longford direction anyway. Deliveries from the n5 to Elphin as well.

With regards to the service stations, I had heard the local Westward garage had looked into building a new service station on the new bypass, but don't know if it got any traction.

The Westward also owns/operates the filling station in Tarmonbarry, so hard to see them building another one close by to where they already operate 2 stations at present, unless they do it to keep someone else out.

DumbBrunette · 12-06-2021 10:44am

Some details of the new scheme attached. It includes 16 T-junctions, but only 4 grade separated road crossings. I would imagine the cost of additional grade separation was difficult to justify given the relatively low traffic levels expected. We're fortunate enough that the entire scheme is type 1 - this had to be justified by the designers by stating that it was desirable to have a consistent cross section along the whole N5 (except W-T obviously).

Chris_5339762 · 12-06-2021 12:50pm

General question: Is this the longest new-build Type 1 Single Carriageway scheme ever in Ireland?

user1842 · 12-06-2021 1:09pm

DumbBrunette wrote: »

Some details of the new scheme attached. It includes 16 T-junctions, but only 4 grade separated road crossings. I would imagine the cost of additional grade separation was difficult to justify given the relatively low traffic levels expected. We're fortunate enough that the entire scheme is type 1 - this had to be justified by the designers by stating that it was desirable to have a consistent cross section along the whole N5 (except W-T obviously).

Are the 5 roundabouts in-line? I thought it was 4.

5 roundabouts is a lot and in my view a poor design choice for a cross country road.

Also 16 T junctions....

user1842 · 12-06-2021 1:38pm

user1842 wrote: »

Are the 5 roundabouts in-line? I thought it was 4.

5 roundabouts is a lot and in my view a poor design choice for a cross country road.

Also 16 T junctions....

Ok, I looked at the maps in detail and count 3 in-line roundabouts and 2 off-line, not so bad

but still 3 too many.

Cosmo Kramer · 12-06-2021 5:27pm

DumbBrunette wrote: »

Some details of the new scheme attached. It includes 16 T-junctions, but only 4 grade separated road crossings. I would imagine the cost of additional grade separation was difficult to justify given the relatively low traffic levels expected. We're fortunate enough that the entire scheme is type 1 - this had to be justified by the designers by stating that it was desirable to have a consistent cross section along the whole N5 (except W-T obviously).

I would have thought Type 1 single carriageway would be a minimum requirement for any new road constructed on a national primary route but I guess not?

12-06-2021 5:46pm

Is nothing going to happen to Scramogue Cross so?

DumbBrunette · 12-06-2021 6:00pm

Ideally it should be but there are a couple of exceptions I can think of, namely the N16 Lugatober and N26 schemes, both of which are type 2 single. The other planned N16 realignments may be type 2 also, I'm not sure of that though.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I would have thought Type 1 single carriageway would be a minimum requirement for any new road constructed on a national primary route but I guess not?

DumbBrunette · 12-06-2021 7:56pm

http://www.roscommoncoco.ie/en/Services/Roads/Publications-and-Information/N5-Ballaghaderreen-to-Scramoge-Road-Project/Public-Information-Day/10-Public-Information-Day-Brochure-10.pdf

HabibiLibneni wrote: »

Is nothing going to happen to Scramogue Cross so?

12-06-2021 8:57pm

They're just extending one junction slightly east. Such a pity.

user1842 · 12-06-2021 9:22pm

HabibiLibneni wrote: »

They're just extending one junction slightly east. Such a pity.

Indeed that is a pity, it looks like they are not doing much to it.

spacetweek · 12-06-2021 11:03pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

General question: Is this the longest new-build Type 1 Single Carriageway scheme ever in Ireland?

Oh by a long way. The second longest is N5 Charlestown Bypass which opened in 2007 and is only 18.2 km.

The N55 Athlone-Ballymahon is currently on hold but will only be 16.4 km.

The N86 Tralee to Dingle will be 32 km but that doesn't count as it is being built in many stages and much of it is widening rather than new build.
The N60 Castlebar to Claremorris is suspended (may happen after 2030) but I think that one may go ahead as small phases too.

The reason they like building short sections of SC is so that small local contractors can have a chance to bid for them. Usually these contractors are way too small to be able to build national road schemes.

spacetweek · 12-06-2021 11:17pm

Between 2004 and when this opens in 2024, the N5 will have had an astonishing 75 km of new SC build (+20 km of DC!). Goes to show how much improvement it needed.

The only scheme on it after that will be Bohola-Ballyvary (7.5 km). Last word on that is that it is a post-2027 scheme. East Castlebar to Turlough was originally in scope for the DC but was dropped, but it's not clear whether this is going to happen at all now.

Chris_5339762 · 13-06-2021 8:35pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Between 2004 and when this opens in 2024, the N5 will have had an astonishing 75 km of new SC build (+20 km of DC!). Goes to show how much improvement it needed.

The only scheme on it after that will be Bohola-Ballyvary (7.5 km). Last word on that is that it is a post-2027 scheme. East Castlebar to Turlough was originally in scope for the DC but was dropped, but it's not clear whether this is going to happen at all now.

Thanks for the infos. I would say though that it doesn't just show the improvement needed, it shows how politics has played a part. While this road is crap for instance, there are more needed schemes elsewhere, on worse roads. But politics, and the pushing of links to the west politically, meant the N5 was always the one you do for politics reasons.

That said, I look forward to driving on this, as the only time I've ever driven this rancid section of N5 I was stuck behind a truck FOR THE WHOLE LENGTH.

user1842 · 13-06-2021 10:21pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

there are more needed schemes elsewhere, on worse roads. But politics, and the pushing of links to the west politically, meant the N5 was always the one you do for politics reasons.

Care to give an example?

Pete_Cavan · 14-06-2021 7:40am

Apart from the N20 which is going through it's own process, there isn't a National Primary road deserving of the investment the N5 has received over the last decade and over the next couple of years.

Large parts of the National Primary network got substantial investment since the turn of the millennium, including some parts which received more than it needed and proportionally more than the N5 is currently receiving.

Chris_5339762 · 14-06-2021 9:08am

user1842 wrote: »

Care to give an example?

M20 for a start, as mentioned.
N22 Ballyvourney - Macroom should have been done years ago, higher traffic levels than most of the N5. Getting done now though.
N25 Midleton - Youghal. Terribly overcapacity. Should be done before this really, but not on the agenda even.
N2 Slane - I appreciate there has been controversy here, but it should have been pushed much, much harder by politics.

Enda Kenny pushed the Ballaghdereen Bypass higher up the pile than it really needed to be.
The Castleisland and Tralee bypasses were done waaaay out of order to satisfy the Healy-Raes and get their votes on board.
As mentioned on this thread, Michael Ring has been pushing for this scheme for ages and it's happened. But its hard, in a way, that two N5 schemes are getting done at the same time when there are, lets face it, more deserving schemes out there at the moment. Why did this one get through the statutory processes so quickly when other schemes (M28) get so badly bogged down? The M28 should have been pushed much harder by politics from the very start.

I'm not begrudging the N5 this upgrade, its badly needed. But I've been following road developments in Ireland for about 15 years now and politics absolutely does come into it.

Mullinabreena · 14-06-2021 9:27am

How does the traffic levels on the N5 and N4 from Longford to the west/northwest compare? I understand different sections will vary but generally? Would they be quite similar?

user1842 · 14-06-2021 9:49am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

M20 for a start, as mentioned.
N22 Ballyvourney - Macroom should have been done years ago, higher traffic levels than most of the N5. Getting done now though.
N25 Midleton - Youghal. Terribly overcapacity. Should be done before this really, but not on the agenda even.
N2 Slane - I appreciate there has been controversy here, but it should have been pushed much, much harder by politics.

Enda Kenny pushed the Ballaghdereen Bypass higher up the pile than it really needed to be.
The Castleisland and Tralee bypasses were done waaaay out of order to satisfy the Healy-Raes and get their votes on board.
As mentioned on this thread, Michael Ring has been pushing for this scheme for ages and it's happened. But its hard, in a way, that two N5 schemes are getting done at the same time when there are, lets face it, more deserving schemes out there at the moment. Why did this one get through the statutory processes so quickly when other schemes (M28) get so badly bogged down? The M28 should have been pushed much harder by politics from the very start.

I'm not begrudging the N5 this upgrade, its badly needed. But I've been following road developments in Ireland for about 15 years now and politics absolutely does come into it.

Fair enough and point well made.

The TII trafic data website is very good:

https://trafficdata.tii.ie/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

KevRossi · 14-06-2021 10:07am

It's not just the traffic level that counts here. The stretch from Strokestown to Frenchpark is very dangerous, there have been a fair few people killed and seriously injured on it over the years. I think that was one of the reasons it was pushed. I don't have the stats as to deaths or injuries per km compared to other roads, but it's up there.

I agree some of it is political pushing, I mean it took them years to bypass the lights at Newland's Cross and at Lucan on the N4 and they had a serious amount of traffic.

Incidentally, I know it's anecdotal, but a fair few Mayo people I know take the M6 to Athlone and then go N61 and N60 via Roscommon to get back to Mayo as it's faster and safer than the N5. And more recently the M6 to Athenry and M17, N17, N60 to Castlebar. Again, they just perceive it to be safer and it's pretty much just as fast.

thomas385 · 14-06-2021 10:56am

KevRossi wrote: »

It's not just the traffic level that counts here. The stretch from Strokestown to Frenchpark is very dangerous, there have been a fair few people killed and seriously injured on it over the years. I think that was one of the reasons it was pushed. I don't have the stats as to deaths or injuries per km compared to other roads, but it's up there.

I agree some of it is political pushing, I mean it took them years to bypass the lights at Newland's Cross and at Lucan on the N4 and they had a serious amount of traffic.

Incidentally, I know it's anecdotal, but a fair few Mayo people I know take the M6 to Athlone and then go N61 and N60 via Roscommon to get back to Mayo as it's faster and safer than the N5. And more recently the M6 to Athenry and M17, N17, N60 to Castlebar. Again, they just perceive it to be safer and it's pretty much just as fast.

Can confirm, living in West Mayo my first-choice route to Dublin would be taking the R330 through Killawalla to Partry, then when on the N84 as far as Kilmaine, R332 through Foxhall to Tuam and then the route you've described from there. The R332 must be the worst quality road with a fairly high amount of traffic that I've come across, but as of now I prefer taking that route rather than the existing N5

theoneeyedman · 14-06-2021 11:08am

Mullinabreena wrote: »

How does the traffic levels on the N5 and N4 from Longford to the west/northwest compare? I understand different sections will vary but generally? Would they be quite similar?

Probably 2:1 N5 v N4.

N4 has its main accident blackspot pretty much sorted. This section of the N5 is a deathtrap.

KrisW1001 · 14-06-2021 11:36am

Safety is more important than capacity when prioritising schemes. Newlands Cross was an inconvenience, but there were major accident blackspots elsewhere on the network that had to be fixed before it.

N25 Midleton-Youghal is absolutely not a priority over N5. N25 here is a well-engineered, wide and safe road, but it's one that is swamped with traffic twice a day. N5, meanwhile, had several narrow, substandard legacy sections that were never properly designed. Safety is the priority, not capacity. The only safety improvements on N25 would be just east of the Youghal bypass to fix the very sharp bends either side of the Blackwater bridge between Rincrew and Kinsalebeg, and replace/widen the road along the waterside.

But it's not true to say N5 was favoured ahead of more deserving projects. Apart from the fact that N5 was a pretty dangerous road for a national primary route, it wasn't actually bumped up the list; it was always put on the "once we've done the other Primary Roads, then..." part of the list.

Some of the schemes cited above were planned ahead of N5, but being started first meant that meant their permissions lapsed during the moratorium on new road building. When money became available again, only the later schemes could be re-activated (N5, N22 Baile Bhuirne), while others were back to square one. The choice was often to fund one of the N5 projects, or build no national primary projects at all. In many ways, being late favoured N5.

The earlier N5 schemes had the advantage of being relatively cheap, too. Doing any part of N20, even if it hadn't lapsed, would have required committing half a billion euro, but the works on the N5 were much more manageable.

N2 Slane is a valid point, except that it was also planned to be built ahead of the N5 schemes, but like the Ovens section of N22, it was delayed so much by multiple local objections that it ended up needing a complete re-do.

Cosmo Kramer · 14-06-2021 11:38am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

M20 for a start, as mentioned.
N22 Ballyvourney - Macroom should have been done years ago, higher traffic levels than most of the N5. Getting done now though.
N25 Midleton - Youghal. Terribly overcapacity. Should be done before this really, but not on the agenda even.
N2 Slane - I appreciate there has been controversy here, but it should have been pushed much, much harder by politics.

Enda Kenny pushed the Ballaghdereen Bypass higher up the pile than it really needed to be.
The Castleisland and Tralee bypasses were done waaaay out of order to satisfy the Healy-Raes and get their votes on board.
As mentioned on this thread, Michael Ring has been pushing for this scheme for ages and it's happened. But its hard, in a way, that two N5 schemes are getting done at the same time when there are, lets face it, more deserving schemes out there at the moment. Why did this one get through the statutory processes so quickly when other schemes (M28) get so badly bogged down? The M28 should have been pushed much harder by politics from the very start.

I'm not begrudging the N5 this upgrade, its badly needed. But I've been following road developments in Ireland for about 15 years now and politics absolutely does come into it.

Most of that is fair enough but the only point I would make is that those are more local/ provincial schemes in counties and regions that already have excellent connections to the wider national road network. Whereas this is the main route in and out of Mayo and part of Roscommon and these sections were/are in particularly poor condition compared to almost all of the other arterial primary routes that connect the regions to Dublin (N1 - N11). Really this upgrade should have been done between 2005 and 2010 at the same time as the motorway network was developed elsewhere, while obviously this doesn't need to be to that standard its upgrade is as important to Mayo as the M6, M7, M8 are to the regions they serve - so in that respect these schemes are really only a case of playing catch up now 15 years later.

So yes, it isn't the busiest in terms of traffic levels (also as noted partly because people are detouring to avoid it) - indeed there will be routes within Mayo such as the N60 that are probably busier with local traffic, but it's upgrade will be more important to the regional economy in relative terms than local connections such as the N60 or the other busier ones elsewhere around the country that you mentioned.

Also, if you think it's hard watching two bits of the N5 being done at the moment while other schemes are held back you can probably start to get a feel for what it was like in the north west 10 to 15 years ago when the rest of the country got a motorway network but the north west wasn't even deemed worthy of a decent single carriageway road network to connect it to the rest of the country.

Sometimes I see threads on boards about other parts of the country - the South East for example seems to have a complex about underfunding compared to other areas. Then you look at a road map and they have not just one but two Motorway/dual carriageway schemes connecting the region to the rest of the country - compared to the north west they don't know they're living!

Reuben1210 · 14-06-2021 11:45am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

M20 for a start, as mentioned.
N22 Ballyvourney - Macroom should have been done years ago, higher traffic levels than most of the N5. Getting done now though.
N25 Midleton - Youghal. Terribly overcapacity. Should be done before this really, but not on the agenda even.
N2 Slane - I appreciate there has been controversy here, but it should have been pushed much, much harder by politics.

Enda Kenny pushed the Ballaghdereen Bypass higher up the pile than it really needed to be.
The Castleisland and Tralee bypasses were done waaaay out of order to satisfy the Healy-Raes and get their votes on board.
As mentioned on this thread, Michael Ring has been pushing for this scheme for ages and it's happened. But its hard, in a way, that two N5 schemes are getting done at the same time when there are, lets face it, more deserving schemes out there at the moment. Why did this one get through the statutory processes so quickly when other schemes (M28) get so badly bogged down? The M28 should have been pushed much harder by politics from the very start.

I'm not begrudging the N5 this upgrade, its badly needed. But I've been following road developments in Ireland for about 15 years now and politics absolutely does come into it.

Yeah all true, but M28 was bogged down with NIMBYism, like everywhere in Ireland if anyone wants to develop anything that runs through an established suburb, the NIMBYs come out to thwart any development. It's a huge problem we have here!

N5 - Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge [underway]

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