Anti-vaxxers

Former Former Former · 24-05-2021 11:24am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Pandemic has attracted the usual scam artists.

A windfall tax on billionaires could have paid for everything. But they are now 27% or thereabouts richer in just a year. Instead the rest of us will most likely see retirement age pushed back, again to pay for it.

Retirement was set to be 67 this year.

What will your retirement age be ?

How many billionaires do you think we have in Ireland?

This is awful nonsense.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-05-2021 11:57am

Former Former Former wrote: »

How many billionaires do you think we have in Ireland?

This is awful nonsense.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0125/1191804-oxfam-pandemic-billionaires-inequality/

Former Former Former · 24-05-2021 12:18pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0125/1191804-oxfam-pandemic-billionaires-inequality/

Soooo, their wealth grew by 3.3 billion. There's no data behind that figure but let's assume it's right.

The cost of Covid to the Irish state is over 20 billion so far, and expected to hit 30 billion by the end of the year.

Do you see the problem with your proposal?

This is anti-vaxx logic applied to economics. And I use the word 'logic' extremely loosely.

Ash.J.Williams · 24-05-2021 12:23pm

There’s been a notable lack of men with visible mental health issues peddling anti vax bile from their cars since the beginning of the pandemic, where did they go ?

The recalled a lack of self awareness in what they were saying

Qiaonasen · 24-05-2021 1:18pm

I am not an anti vaxxer at all but the thoughts that people who are getting vaccinated are going to be given special rights is a bit annoying and puts me off taking the vaccine on principle. Here in Germany if you are vaccinated you will have to follow very little restrictions. I honestly think this isn't the way to tackle anti vaxxers. They need to be beaten with logic.

Seth Brundle · 24-05-2021 1:22pm

Qiaonasen wrote: »

I am not an anti vaxxer at all but the thoughts that people who are getting vaccinated are going to be given special rights is a bit annoying and puts me off taking the vaccine on principle. Here in Germany if you are vaccinated you will have to follow very little restrictions. I honestly think this isn't the way to tackle anti vaxxers. They need to be beaten with logic.

Vaccinated people will not be getting special rights.
It may be the case that those who aren't vaccinated (without fair reason) may not be able to enter certain buildings, etc.
Think of it in the same way that an employer can decide not to admit an employee who chooses not to become vaccinated because they need to protect employees who cannot be vaccinated.
Some businesses or organisations may also apply this logic towards customers e.g. airlines.
But this is clearly a good thing so is nothing to worry about!

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 1:22pm

Qiaonasen wrote: »

I am not an anti vaxxer at all but the thoughts that people who are getting vaccinated are going to be given special rights is a bit annoying and puts me off taking the vaccine on principle. Here in Germany if you are vaccinated you will have to follow very little restrictions. I honestly think this isn't the way to tackle anti vaxxers. They need to be beaten with logic.

They have no interest in logic, hence the idea of vaccine passports. The vaccine is the only way to get through this pandemic. In areas of reduced uptake in the UK, the virus is mutating due to have the space to replicate.

I don't like the idea of vaccine passports but if it's the only way out of lockdown despite anti-vaxxers attempts to the contrary then so be it.

GT89 · 24-05-2021 1:29pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Vaccinated people will not be getting special rights.
It may be the case that those who aren't vaccinated (without fair reason) may not be able to enter certain buildings, etc.
Think of it in the same way that an employer can decide not to admit an employee who chooses not to become vaccinated because they need to protect employees who cannot be vaccinated.
Some businesses or organisations may also apply this logic towards customers e.g. airlines.
But this is clearly a good thing so is nothing to worry about!

Clearly a good thing until they start saying a second dose isn't good enough you need a third and so on and the covid vaccine becomes annual. Tbh I think now the vaccine won't be mandatory the authorities will just make life a hassle for people who won't take the vaccine having to take tests everything they fly.

24-05-2021 1:32pm

GT89 wrote: »

Clearly a good thing until they start saying a second dose isn't good enough you need a third and so on and the covid vaccine becomes annual. Tbh I think now the vaccine won't be mandatory the authorities will just make life a hassle for people who won't take the vaccine having to take tests everything they fly.

Booster shots aren't unusual, also I get a flu vaccine every year so I don't consider it very different. On top of that, if it prevents large-scale deaths as we've seen in the last year, it's completely worth it.

GT89 · 24-05-2021 1:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Booster shots aren't unusual, also I get a flu vaccine every year so I don't consider it very different. On top of that, if it prevents large-scale deaths as we've seen in the last year, it's completely worth it.

People don't want to get shots every year just to make it less hassle for me to go on holidays. I have never taken the flu vaccine in my life as I trust my immune systems response should I contract influenza. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they feel is best for their health.

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 1:38pm

GT89 wrote: »

People don't want to get shots every year just to make it less hassle for me to go on holidays. I have never taken the flu vaccine in my life as I trust my immune systems response should I contract influenza. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they feel is best for their health.

And countries should be allowed to send anti-vaxxers back to where they came from just as airlines should be allowed to minimise risk to passengers' health.

Sardonicat · 24-05-2021 1:39pm

GT89 wrote: »

Clearly a good thing until they start saying a second dose isn't good enough you need a third and so on and the covid vaccine becomes annual. Tbh I think now the vaccine won't be mandatory the authorities will just make life a hassle for people who won't take the vaccine having to take tests everything they fly.

Aren't we lucky to be living in an age where vaccines are available?

24-05-2021 1:46pm

GT89 wrote: »

People don't want to get shots every year just to make it less hassle for me to go on holidays. I have never taken the flu vaccine in my life as I trust my immune systems response should I contract influenza. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they feel is best for their health.

And covid is a far greater risk than the flu. You're free to make your decision but if it results in hassle in your life, that's your choice.

I also imagine most couldn't care less about getting annual shots. If you're considering that to be an upset to your life, I've had to go on a drip every two months for years to cover a chronic illness. I've also had relatively healthy family members who narrowly avoided death from covid. I imagine most have had similar experiences during the last year. So I imagine most will be happy to get vaccinated for that reason.

If nations reject tourists due to lack of vaccines, they have every right to do so and there's a level of sense to doing so.

Jerry Attrick · 24-05-2021 1:46pm

GT89 wrote: »

Clearly a good thing until they start saying a second dose isn't good enough you need a third and so on and the covid vaccine becomes annual. Tbh I think now the vaccine won't be mandatory the authorities will just make life a hassle for people who won't take the vaccine having to take tests everything they fly.

I'd find being obliged to have annual covid vaccine almost as objectionable as being obliged to accept my annual salary increment.

Dohnjoe · 24-05-2021 2:08pm

GT89 wrote: »

People don't want to get shots every year just to make it less hassle for me to go on holidays. I have never taken the flu vaccine in my life as I trust my immune systems response should I contract influenza. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they feel is best for their health.

People put their own beliefs above the health of others, that's the issue.

You, for example, openly believe this whole pandemic was "planned" and is a "scam". People are capable of having uninformed beliefs that threaten not only their own health, but the health of others.

Former Former Former · 24-05-2021 2:21pm

Qiaonasen wrote: »

I am not an anti vaxxer at all but the thoughts that people who are getting vaccinated are going to be given special rights is a bit annoying and puts me off taking the vaccine on principle. Here in Germany if you are vaccinated you will have to follow very little restrictions. I honestly think this isn't the way to tackle anti vaxxers. They need to be beaten with logic.

You cannot use a logical argument to defeat an illogical positon. That's the problem. If logic was the answer, this discussion would have been over months ago.

I don't understand why this puts you off getting the vaccine though?

In reality, the anti-vaxxers will simply ignore the rules and follow the rules that are set out for vaccinated people. If they're challenged, they will lie and say they have been vaccinated. They are inherently immoral people so they won't think twice about it if it means they can go the pub or whatever.

The only downside is when enough people get vaccinated, our herd immunity will protect these people too, thus confirming their belief that vaccines don't work and aren't necessary.

I would be in favour of restricting social welfare and access to the public heath service to those who are vaccinated. I know that will never happen but if people really believe in the state not interfering with their lives, let's see how strong their convictions are. Not very strong, I would guess.

24-05-2021 2:32pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Vaccinated people will not be getting special rights.
It may be the case that those who aren't vaccinated (without fair reason) may not be able to enter certain buildings, etc.
Think of it in the same way that an employer can decide not to admit an employee who chooses not to become vaccinated because they need to protect employees who cannot be vaccinated.
Some businesses or organisations may also apply this logic towards customers e.g. airlines.
But this is clearly a good thing so is nothing to worry about!

really inspiring stuff there...:cool:

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:38pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In areas of reduced uptake in the UK, the virus is mutating due to have the space to replicate.

I don't like the idea of vaccine passports but if it's the only way out of lockdown despite anti-vaxxers attempts to the contrary then so be it.

How do you know it's not the vaccine's that are causing the virus to mutate?

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 2:39pm

mikeorange wrote: »

How do you know it's not the vaccine's that are causing the virus to mutate?

Because the very idea is absurd.

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And covid is a far greater risk than the flu.

To certain groups

Kids?

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:40pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because the very idea is absurd.

How so?

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 2:41pm

mikeorange wrote: »

How so?

There's nothing in the vaccine that would enhance the mutation rate of the virus. The vaccine is designed to manipulate the human immune system.

Sardonicat · 24-05-2021 2:41pm

mikeorange wrote: »

To certain groups

Kids?

To all groups if the health service collapses as a result .

Dohnjoe · 24-05-2021 2:43pm

mikeorange wrote: »

To certain groups

Kids?

It's more deadly than flu, transmits faster and it has threatened to overwhelm national health services around the world.

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:48pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's nothing in the vaccine that would enhance the mutation rate of the virus. The vaccine is designed to manipulate the human immune system.

No offence man, but like me, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and not qualified in anyway to answer questions about the immune system

What are your medical qualifications by the way?

Bloody nobel prize winners think the vaccines could be causing selective pressure on the virus to mutate through mass vaccinations and you disregard it as impossible. Madness

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:49pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

To all groups if the health service collapses as a result .

It's like a flu to kids, health service collapsing is besides the point

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2021 2:50pm

mikeorange wrote: »

No offence man, but like me, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and not qualified in anyway to answer questions about the immune system

What are your medical qualifications by the way?

Bloody nobel prize winners think the vaccines could be causing selective pressure on the virus to mutate through mass vaccinations and you disregard it as impossible. Madness

I presume you can provide a link to those nobel scientists saying that?

Former Former Former · 24-05-2021 2:50pm

mikeorange wrote: »

To certain groups

Kids?

In a post above, you claimed to be a nurse in a nursing home.

But you don't think Covid is a greater risk than the flu.

This doesn't compute. One of these two sentences is a lie.

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 2:51pm

mikeorange wrote: »

No offence man, but like me, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and not qualified in anyway to answer questions about the immune system

What are your medical qualifications by the way?

Bloody nobel prize winners think the vaccines could be causing selective pressure on the virus to mutate through mass vaccinations and you disregard it as impossible. Madness

Yes, I do. I've been in research for a long time now. You asked me questions and I answered them so now you're getting snippy because I'm rejecting your anti-vaxxer nonsense.

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:54pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I presume you can provide a link to those nobel scientists saying that?

Can't link

Nobel Prize Winner French Virologist Professor Luc Montagnier talks about it and a few others who are cast as crackpots now :rolleyes:

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 2:56pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yes, I do. I've been in research for a long time now. You asked me questions and I answered them so now you're getting snippy because I'm rejecting your anti-vaxxer nonsense.

It's not my nonsense, it's nobel prize winning virologist that you rejected

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2021 2:57pm

mikeorange wrote: »

Can't link

Nobel Prize Winner French Virologist Professor Luc Montagnier talks about it and a few others who are cast as crackpots now :rolleyes:

ah right, I thought it was somebody serious who said it.

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 2:59pm

mikeorange wrote: »

It's not my nonsense, it's nobel prize winning virologist that you rejected

It is your nonsense. Just saying that someone who won a nobel prize agrees with it means nothing whatsoever.

I've published multiple papers on T cell biology so, yes, I do know what I'm on about. By all means, post some data. Otherwise, I'm going to dismiss this as the latest installment in this series of anti-vaxx scutter.

Sardonicat · 24-05-2021 2:59pm

mikeorange wrote: »

It's like a flu to kids, health service collapsing is besides the point

Health service collapsing is precisely the point!

You are looking at a scenario where accident victims who could be saved with surgery not being able to have the surgery because there are no intensive care beds, equipment or staff available to treat them post op Likewise, heart attacks and strokes. Your kid is sick with meningitis? Well, too bad if their condition deteriorates and they require ventillation. If only they'd only caught the COVID.....Other services having to be cancelled because almost every available bed would be occupied by a COVID patient, staff getting ill and not enough of them to provide even basic treatment and care.... The knock on effect to wider society would be felt very quickly

Dohnjoe · 24-05-2021 3:03pm

mikeorange wrote: »

Can't link

Nobel Prize Winner French Virologist Professor Luc Montagnier talks about it and a few others who are cast as crackpots now :rolleyes:

Ah Luc Montagnier. To repost this:

https://science.thewire.in/the-scien...pseudoscience/

The Indian study Montagnier referred to had been authored by a team from IIT Delhi, among others. They had uploaded their manuscript to the bioRxiv preprint repository only to quickly take it down after commentators pointed out numerous errors in their analysis.

An article published more recently in the journal Nature Medicine analysing the new virus’s genome concluded thus: “Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.”

What Montagnier called the “elements” of HIV were short cis-acting elements that scientists had discovered in the genome of coronaviruses in 2005. They are required for genome replication and are shared by many coronaviruses. So if what Montagnier said is true, the whole family of coronaviruses – which originated over 10,000 years ago – would have to be lab-made, and this is obviously nonsensical.

Many experts have already pointed out this obvious flaw in Montagnier’s argument. As Étienne Simon-Lorière, a professor at the Institut Pasteur in Paris, said, “If we take a word from a book and it looks like another word, can we say that one has copied from the other? This is absurd!”

It is surprising to have a scientist of Montagnier’s stature utter such questionable statements – although Montagnier himself is a controversial figure. Among other causes, he has supported anti-vaxxers, homeopathy and a silly claim that DNA emits “electromagnetic waves”.

jimmycrackcorm · 24-05-2021 3:05pm

GT89 wrote: »

Clearly a good thing until they start saying a second dose isn't good enough you need a third and so on and the covid vaccine becomes annual.

I don't understand how people make up silly arguments like this based on zero evidence.

joe40 · 24-05-2021 3:06pm

mikeorange wrote: »

It's not my nonsense, it's nobel prize winning virologist that you rejected

A quick search of that particulars Scientist's wikipedia shows that he has been controversial for some time.

Just one example

Although fellow Nobel prize winners – who view homeopathy as quackery – were left openly shaking their heads, Montagnier's comments were rapidly embraced by homeopaths eager for greater credibility. Cristal Sumner, of the British Homeopathic Association, said Montagnier's work gave homeopathy 'a true scientific ethos'."[29]

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 3:07pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

Health service collapsing is precisely the point!

You are looking at a scenario where accident victims who could be saved with surgery not being able to have the surgery because there are no intensive care beds, equipment or staff available to treat them post op Likewise, heart attacks and strokes. Your kid is sick with meningitis? Well, too bad if their condition deteriorates and they require ventillation. If only they'd only caught the COVID.....Other services having to be cancelled because almost every available bed would be occupied by a COVID patient, staff getting ill and not enough of them to provide even basic treatment and care.... The knock on effect to wider society would be felt very quickly

Your talking about triage now

In your scenario they'd toss you out of the intensive care bed and give it to the kid.

Ash.J.Williams · 24-05-2021 3:09pm

mikeorange wrote: »

It's not my nonsense, it's nobel prize winning virologist that you rejected

Luc was wrong as were lots of experts , India took no action and they are f**ked

Dohnjoe · 24-05-2021 3:10pm

mikeorange wrote: »

Your talking about triage now

In your scenario they'd toss you out of the intensive care bed and give it to the kid.

Seasonal flu hasn't threatened that scenario, the Covid pandemic has

Sardonicat · 24-05-2021 3:17pm

mikeorange wrote: »

Your talking about triage now

In your scenario they'd toss you out of the intensive care bed and give it to the kid.

No, I'm not talking about triage. And no, they would not turf someone off a ventilator and give it to someone else.

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 3:20pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It is your nonsense. Just saying that someone who won a nobel prize agrees with it means nothing whatsoever.

I've published multiple papers on T cell biology so, yes, I do know what I'm on about. By all means, post some data. Otherwise, I'm going to dismiss this as the latest installment in this series of anti-vaxx scutter.

How could you possibly know it can only mutate in the bodies of non vaccinated people and can't mutate in the bodies of vaccinated people?

Didn't we get mutations because of using monoclonal antibody treatment?

Do you not believe in selective pressure that causes a virus to evolve?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776039

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 3:21pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

No, I'm not talking about triage. And no, they would not turf someone off a ventilator and give it to someone else.

Of course they would and rightly so

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 3:22pm

mikeorange wrote: »

How could you possibly know it can only mutate in the bodies of non vaccinated people and can't mutate in the bodies of vaccinated people?

Didn't we get mutations because of using monoclonal antibody treatment?

Do you not believe in selective pressure that causes a virus to evolve?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776039

I thought you couldn't post links?

You're going to have to provide evidence there, chief. The virus mutates because of the poor fidelity of RNA replicaton not whatever anti-vaxxer tosh your peddling.

Did you read the JAMA link or is this yet another dump?

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 3:26pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Luc was wrong as were lots of experts , India took no action and they are f**ked

They were all wrong, our local hero Luke O'Neill told us all to wash our hands for months on end when the thing was airbourne and said Boris had made up the UK variant and not to fear, Fauci is back and forth constantly, another wrong expert

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 3:27pm

mikeorange wrote: »

They were all wrong, our local hero Luke O'Neill told us all to wash our hands for months on end when the thing was airbourne and said Boris had made up the UK variant and not to fear, Fauci is back and forth constantly, another wrong expert

Ah. The old "both sides" line. There's being wrong because of insufficient data and being wrong because you believe in monumentally stupid nonsense like homeopathy.

CramCycle · 24-05-2021 3:29pm

mikeorange wrote: »

No offence man, but like me, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and not qualified in anyway to answer questions about the immune system

What are your medical qualifications by the way?

Bloody nobel prize winners think the vaccines could be causing selective pressure on the virus to mutate through mass vaccinations and you disregard it as impossible. Madness

Selective pressure and the rate of mutation are two different things, what one might do is cause a variant to become more prevalent, but it does not increase the rate of mutation, it also does not put selective pressure for a worse or better variant. Also the increasing evidence that most of the vaccines are effective in regards most of the variants so far would seem to allay that fear for the moment. In fact, effective vaccines should in theory lower mutation rates in regards most viral transmissions, although if vaccination rates are not high enough, we run the risk of selective strains coming to the fore which are a bit more resilient.

As an internet forum though, I have found plenty of people with no qualifications that they admit too, to be just as knowledgeable as those with PhDs in the area but since we are in a pissing contest.

Qualified Biochemist, 15 years industry experience in genetics, 2 masters and currently working on two virus related projects, one specifically related to Covid 19. Not published as much as ancapailldorcha though

ancapailldorcha · 24-05-2021 3:31pm

CramCycle wrote: »

ualified Biochemist, 15 years industry experience in genetics, 2 masters and currently working on two virus related projects, one specifically related to Covid 19. Not published as much as ancapailldorcha though

You're well ahead of me. I've only the few recent papers.

Sardonicat · 24-05-2021 3:35pm

mikeorange wrote: »

Of course they would and rightly so

That's not how it works. Withdrawing treatment that you have already commenced, based on clinical assesment that the treatment is potentially life saving and currently working on the basis that someone else needs it now is unethical and criminal

mikeorange · 24-05-2021 3:36pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ah. The old "both sides" line. There's being wrong because of insufficient data and being wrong because you believe in monumentally stupid nonsense like homeopathy.

There's being wrong and there's lieing.

Do you really believe Fauci, O'Niell etc didn't know it was airbourne till last summer and washing your hands was useful?

Your an intelligent guy, when did you realise it was airbourne and hung around the air like passive smoke?

Jan/Feb 2020?

Anti-vaxxers

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