Anti-vaxxers

rawn

Amantine wrote: »

Erik Shun wrote: »

So, as usual... nothing but diversion from you....I don't see any studies from you showing HPV doesn't work

6. How effective is the new vaccine?

Studies have shown it is 100% effective in the prevention of cervical precancers and noninvasive cervical cancers caused by HPV-16 and 18 in those not already exposed to those strains, according to Merck & Co. Inc., which makes Gardasil. Merck is a WebMD sponsor.

source:https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/features/hpv-cervical-cancer-vaccine-15-facts#2

Precancers does not equal cancer. Not all cervical cancer is caused by HPV-16 and 18 and most precancers will be caught in anyone who has regular smear test.
Japan pulled gardasil because it was too dangerous and the benefit unknown. Are they loony "anti-vaxxers" too?

Japan did not pull the use of Gardasil, it pulled advertisements of it while reports of adverse effects were being investigated.

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/japan-bans-gardasil-debunking-myths-hpv-vaccine/

banie01

Aside from the psuedo-scientific BS spouted by the ever revolving and not evolving but somehow always familiar Anti-Vax tag team on here...


It's a sign of the long term planning and effort that is behind this misinformation effort when one looks at strange coincidence of the number of fairly old accounts with amazingly low post counts considering their age...
That tag in to this thread to keep the Anti-Vax narrative alive.
Almost as if each time the argument is destroyed...
A "new" person enters the thread with the aim of "learning" and wanting to "hear both sides" in the interest of balance, because every debate has 2 sides!

Which sounds reasonable, if discussing redecorating ones house.
With vaccines however, there is unfortunately a generational gap.
A cohort of of our population has grown up without seeing the havoc wrought by relatively common childhood diseases..

That left peers, crippled, deaf, retarded or blind!
A group of predominantly 40y.o and younger people who grew up with the benefit of a vaccination schedule that was relatively robust and effective are voluntarily and often virulently eschewing the protections that science and their parents fear of their child being the one in a wheelchair, an iron lung, a school for the deaf or an institution gave to them.

Vaccination has been the single greatest victory for public health ever encountered.
If you wish to see what benefits lack of vaccination affords a population, take a look at Nigeria or India or indeed any country with a poorly funded and developed public health system and the concurrent number of children left devastated by not being able to access the preventative measures that some in our society are scorning!

MrFresh

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It nonsense and belongs in the bin. Looks like the latest anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory intended to shore up the Aluminium fiction.

Obviously it's nonsense. I'm just wondering how the connection was made. I've not heard it before. Is it that they think aluminium causes both so therefore they must both be the same?

Dohnjoe

Amantine wrote: »

You should be delighted, how else would you continue this all-or-nothing propaganda.
Welcome Moonage, be aware that you are now and forever more an idiotics, filthy "anti-vaxxer" as this crowd doesn't do subtle.

You appear to be trying to claim or infer there is a link between autism and vaccines. That's a falsehood, there is no proven link. Anyone can go to any credible medical or scientific forum to confirm this. Or simply ask their local GP. There is absolutely no excuse.

One of the key reasons why infectious diseases are making a comeback is because people are aggressively regurgitating disinformation from pseudo-scientific sites and spreading it on the internet

Zubeneschamali

bt25 wrote: »

how is it used in the body? obviously, it's there from ingestion and inhalation due to it's abundant use in recent decades

The Earth's crust is 8% aluminium by weight, the stuff is and always has been everywhere in the environment, just like iron and silicon.

Amantine

Erik Shun wrote: »

https://alzheimer.ca/en/Home/About-dementia/Alzheimer-s-disease/Risk-factors/Aluminum

Kindly sponsored by Roche pharmaceutical and pfizer pharmaceutical companies. Clearly an unbiased source: https://alzheimer.ca/en/Home/About-us/Our-donors

Erik Shun

Amantine wrote: »

Kindly sponsored by Roche pharmaceutical and pfizer pharmaceutical companies. Clearly an unbiased source: https://alzheimer.ca/en/Home/About-us/Our-donors

Oh the irony!

ancapailldorcha

MrFresh wrote: »

Obviously it's nonsense. I'm just wondering how the connection was made. I've not heard it before. Is it that they think aluminium causes both so therefore they must both be the same?

I'm guessing it's because they're seeing a rise in Dementia diagnoses (due to increased longevity and improved diagnostics) and attributing it to aluminium. They're equating Dementia and Autism because it's a nice way to make Wakefield's discredited nonsense relevant again.

Quandary

It's very easy to do ones own research and come to the right conclusions about any vaccinations.

Thankfully we have massive massive entities like the World Health Organisation, UNICEF, The CDC in America etc etc... to rely on as credible sources of information.

Unfortunately with the rapid development of the internet, and by extension social media, we have given virtual loud speakers to anyone who wants one to pollute the pond with their misinformation.

Vehement anti vaxxers would really want to stop and take their fingers out of their fcuking ears, even for 5 minutes, but they are so dug in and focused on their "cause" that they cannot process and/or assimilate any information which legitimately undermines their position.

I've read every single post in this thread and it is just a constant circle of frustration at this stage.

The amount of strawmanning, soapboxing and attempted muddying of the water by the same small few posters is sad.

Dohnjoe

Quandary wrote: »

Thankfully we have massive massive entities like the World Health Organisation, UNICEF, The CDC in America etc etc... to rely on as credible sources of information.

Indeed, but anti-vaxxers prey on people's base suspicions of "big entities" in order to sow doubt about them. They attempt to paint themselves as valiant mavericks questioning the "evil corporations" - and (some) people do buy into that. It's like a "cause", they appeal to people's emotions instead of their logic

The reality is that they are attacking straight-forward academia and medical science. In my opinion it's remarkably similar to how Holocaust deniers attack established historical fact and history. They use the same toolbox; link-dumping, sketchy sources, dodgy "experts", disinformation youtube videos, distorting facts, appeal to motive fallacies - it's all in this thread on display and it can be effective and compelling for those who aren't aware

Igotadose

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Indeed, but anti-vaxxers prey on people's base suspicions of "big entities" in order to sow doubt about them. They attempt to paint themselves as valiant mavericks questioning the "evil corporations" - and (some) people do buy into that. It's like a "cause", they appeal to people's emotions instead of their logic

The reality is that they are attacking straight-forward academia and medical science. In my opinion it's remarkably similar to how Holocaust deniers attack established historical fact and history. They use the same toolbox; link-dumping, sketchy sources, dodgy "experts", disinformation youtube videos, distorting facts, appeal to motive fallacies - it's all in this thread on display and it can be effective and compelling for those who aren't aware

At least one of the anti-vaxxers on this thread's a Holocaust denier as well. As for what seems to be an uptick in their activity here, I think it flows through whatever 'sources' they use and when they're triggered, probably some activity by the providers of their nonsense triggering them.

DublinWriter

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Indeed, but anti-vaxxers prey on people's base suspicions of "big entities" in order to sow doubt about them.
...
The reality is that they are attacking straight-forward academia and medical science.

There is nothing straight-forward about academia. It's all about political manoeuvring and brinkmanship. You really are misguided if you think the sole noble ambition of academia is to be altruistic. Now throw in corporate money and things really start to get rotten.

Don't believe me? Try working in academia sometime yourself.

Be aware of a model called thesis - antithesis - synthesis. To cut it short, if you go against the Orwellian Groupthink, then you will be cut down.

Consider American geochemist Clair Patterson, who for years was degraded as a 'crank' for wanting to get rid of lead from petrol and CFCs from aerosol products.

Again, Joseph Lister. Lister's ideas were mocked and in 1873 The Lancet warned the entire medical profession against his progressive ideas.

Plate tectonics? Again, Alfred Wegener was seen by many in academia as a crank. His 1912 publication of his theory of continental drift, which was a controversy in the field through the 1950s was only universally accepted by academia as late as 1966.

That's only three examples from the top of my head. Dozens, if not hundreds more are extant.

I am pro-vaccination, but I believe more research needs to be carried out into the current aggressive schedule.

Proper, grown up debate on this subject has now become virtually impossible because for many, this debate is just so much as a interesting Internet diversion to practise their gain-saying school debating skills. On both sides.

They're not parents of children with Autism, they've never worked in Big Pharma, and in short, they've no real skin in the game.

ancapailldorcha

You've just spouted a load of generalisations and random irrelevant examples.

I work in academia. I'm working for my second University now in cancer research and can frankly dismiss this as being nothing more than weird ranting and raving.

TheRepentent

DublinWriter wrote: »

I am pro-vaccination, but I believe more research needs to be carried out into the current aggressive schedule.

The supposedly aggressive schedule is decided by the spread of disease surely?


With the recent outbreaks of measles world wide due to anti-vax fukwits leads to that vaccine being pushed. And pushed agrresvilely due to the serious side affects of measles

Varta

Please note this is in no way to be construed as anti-vax, but I wonder if the surge in Measles could be due as much to an adaptation in the virus itself making it more virulent, rather than entirely down to reduced uptake in the vaccination? Just a thought.

Igotadose

Varta wrote: »

Please note this is in no way to be construed as anti-vax, but I wonder if the surge in Measles could be due as much to an adaptation in the virus itself making it more virulent, rather than entirely down to reduced uptake in the vaccination? Just a thought.

Occam's razor pretty much shows that it's due to weakening of the herd immunity. Fewer immunized people, more chance of disease spread.

Rechuchote

Varta wrote: »

Please note this is in no way to be construed as anti-vax, but I wonder if the surge in Measles could be due as much to an adaptation in the virus itself making it more virulent, rather than entirely down to reduced uptake in the vaccination? Just a thought.

The fact that it concentrates on places where a lot of children are not vaccinated, like the Orthodox community in NYC, suggests not.

Amantine

Varta wrote: »

Please note this is in no way to be construed as anti-vax, but I wonder if the surge in Measles could be due as much to an adaptation in the virus itself making it more virulent, rather than entirely down to reduced uptake in the vaccination? Just a thought.

More people die of diarrhoea worldwide than measles. It's sad, but these epidemics are outside of the western world. Thankfully measles deaths are pretty much unheard of here. Measles vaccine deaths are also very rare. In both cases, scientists say the patients tend to have preexisting conditions.

ancapailldorcha

Amantine wrote: »

In 2011: "numerous large-scale mumps outbreaks have occurred in vaccinated populations."

https://jvi.asm.org/content/86/1/615

https://jvi.asm.org/content/86/1/615More people die of diarrhoea worldwide than measles. It's sad, but these epidemics are outside of the western world. Thankfully measles deaths are pretty much unheard of here. Measles vaccine deaths are also very rare. In both cases, scientists say the patients tend to have preexisting conditions.

Did you even read that before dumping it here? Even the title says "No evidence of immune escape".

The abstract:

Recently, numerous large-scale mumps outbreaks have occurred in vaccinated populations. Clinical isolates sequenced from these outbreaks have invariably been of genotypes distinct from those of vaccine viruses, raising concern that certain mumps virus strains may escape vaccine-induced immunity. To investigate this concern, sera obtained from children 6 weeks after receipt of measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine were tested for the ability to neutralize a carefully selected group of genetically diverse mumps virus strains. Although the geometric mean neutralizing antibody titer of the sera was lower against some virus strains than others, all viruses were readily neutralized, arguing against immune escape.

TheRepentent

Amantine wrote: »

In 2011: "numerous large-scale mumps outbreaks have occurred in vaccinated populations."

https://jvi.asm.org/content/86/1/615

https://jvi.asm.org/content/86/1/615More people die of diarrhoea worldwide than measles. It's sad, but these epidemics are outside of the western world. Thankfully measles deaths are pretty much unheard of here. Measles vaccine deaths are also very rare. In both cases, scientists say the patients tend to have preexisting conditions.

That post says it all...no cure for stupidity:rolleyes:

on the plus side stupidity doesn't spread so no need for a vaccine.....

MountainAshIRL

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/mumps-resurgence-waning-immunity/

Newer research on mumps from Harvard

Amantine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Did you even read that before dumping it here? Even the title says "No evidence of immune escape".

The abstract:

Actually, the study is called "numerous large-scale mumps outbreaks have occurred in vaccinated population" which was my point, vaccine immunity can lessen over time. The mistake that I made is that this study is about mumps, not measles.

Capt'n Midnight

Varta wrote: »

Please note this is in no way to be construed as anti-vax, but I wonder if the surge in Measles could be due as much to an adaptation in the virus itself making it more virulent, rather than entirely down to reduced uptake in the vaccination? Just a thought.

Ah, you are asking if EVERY virologist in EVERY country that has a measles outbreak is criminally incompetent ?

You have answered your own question.
One reason we need to vaccinate against preventable diseases is in case they mutate. A mutation in the common flu killed ~2% of the worlds population a hundred years ago.

Measles is a human disease. If one generation was vaccinated it could be exterminated forever. And the vaccine would never need to be used again. And we wouldn't have to worry about it mutating into something more dangerous.


Comparing DNA sequences is quick and cheap and it's used a way of determining the source of the epidemic so I'm betting that it hasn't been overlooked.


There were two different strains of smallpox, both deadly, though one killed off hundreds of millions more than the other. Virologists are hyper-aware that like flu and smallpox small changes in viruses could be lethal. And that eradicating a human only virus through vaccination works.


Measles was always dangerous, however any increase in mortality would have set off alarm bells everywhere. If you've ever heard of H1N1 then you know this to be true.

SEPT 23 1989

Are parents here actually agreeing with the state injecting their own children without their permission

batgoat

Igotadose wrote: »

Occam's razor pretty much shows that it's due to weakening of the herd immunity. Fewer immunized people, more chance of disease spread.

You can directly associate age groups affected in a lot of cases with the rise of Wakefield woo. The mumps outbreak a while back would have been around the right age group to have been born around same time as Wakefield paranoia. So hugely unvaccinated.

Capt'n Midnight

MountainAshIRL wrote: »

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/mumps-resurgence-waning-immunity/
Newer research on mumps from Harvard

Anecdotes aren't evidence but I know someone who is totally deaf in one ear and mostly deaf in the other from Mumps. Totally preventable nowadays.



I know someone else with the same symptoms from Scarlet Fever. It's caused by bacteria so there is no vaccine. Just a reminder that nasties are out there no matter how politically correct you are. And that previous generations had to put up with more than you do. Today in the EU life is so safe and secure it's harder for the lay person to evaluate risks. So to summarise, unless you are allergic or have an immune deficiency, vaccines are far safer than the risk of disease.



I also know someone who is Blind from complications from Meningitis. Vaccines offer some protection from certain types of this.

Amantine

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Are parents here actually agreeing with the state injecting their own children without their permission

Of course not. Any medical procedure on a healthy person requires consent but I don't think it will come to that.

MountainAshIRL

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Anecdotes aren't evidence but I know someone who is totally deaf in one ear and mostly deaf in the other from Mumps. Totally preventable nowadays.



I know someone else with the same symptoms from Scarlet Fever. It's caused by bacteria so there is no vaccine. Just a reminder that nasties are out there no matter how politically correct you are. And that previous generations had to put up with more than you do. Today in the EU life is so safe and secure it's harder for the lay person to evaluate risks. So to summarise, unless you are allergic or have an immune deficiency, vaccines are far safer than the risk of disease.



I also know someone who is Blind from complications from Meningitis. Vaccines offer some protection from certain types of this.

I don't understand how you can call that article an anecdote. It's based on a study by scientists at Harvard, generally considered the best of the best when it comes to medicine. They are suggesting another dose of mmr to boost mumps immunity.

judeboy101

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Are parents here actually agreeing with the state injecting their own children without their permission

State did it 1930's-1970's with children in mother and baby homes, gave permission to vaccine companies to inoculate without parental consent or knowledge.

Amantine

Varta wrote: »

Please note this is in no way to be construed as anti-vax, but I wonder if the surge in Measles could be due as much to an adaptation in the virus itself making it more virulent, rather than entirely down to reduced uptake in the vaccination? Just a thought.

Thankfully deaths from measles are very rare even though there has been an increase in infections. Scientists say the patients tend to have preexisting conditions.Only one death in the UK in 2016 and no deaths in 2015 or 2014. The vaccine is pretty safe too so there is really no need to worry.

source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2013