Anti-vaxxers

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

He hasn't though done actual clinical trials, meta analysis or animal studies just gives his opinions on others research and what it might mean just like a blog. And in low impact journals

Can you give an example of an anti vax paper in an high impact journal, thats not pay to publish where funding hasn't come from an anti vax organisation?

That's the standard your setting isn't it?

And the researcher must have lots of accolades too? You said that too.

Amantine

jh79 wrote: »

And the researcher must have lots of accolades too? You said that too.

Never used the word "accolade" in my life- and my first language is French.

jh79

Amantine wrote: »

Never used the word "accolade" in my life- and my first language is French.

My mistake you said "prizes".

Point is you are trying to set a standard of scientist allowed to have opinions, so give us an example of one that shares your views on vaccines but also meets these standards?

bt25

jh79 wrote: »

My mistake you said "prizes".

Point is you are trying to set a standard of scientist allowed to have opinions, so give us an example of one that shares your views on vaccines but also meets these standards?

I believe, though I may have missed something since I've read the thread, that the poster is making a similar point to how those dismissing the papers provided to support their comments previously. The issue is that the trustworthiness seems to depend on who the source is agreeing with. There is a bit of a double standard that seems to seep into the reactions which from the outside is more clear than it might seem in the middle of it.

MrFresh

Amantine wrote: »

My original reply was that really, you'll find it's a bit more complicated than a yes or no answer... but now that you've explained that science is all about simplifying, I stand corrected! So I'm trying to simplify my answer into a binary one..let me see...is it 0 or 1? No, sorry to be so unscientific, I can't give you a binary answer. #fallaciousall-or-nothingpropaganda

Do you believe there is credible evidence of a link between vaccines and autism? If so, can you direct me to it?

jh79

bt25 wrote: »

I believe, though I may have missed something since I've read the thread, that the poster is making a similar point to how those dismissing the papers provided to support their comments previously. The issue is that the trustworthiness seems to depend on who the source is agreeing with. There is a bit of a double standard that seems to seep into the reactions which from the outside is more clear than it might seem in the middle of it.

Are you saying that sources don't over time gain a reputation either way? A bit naive on your part.

Dohnjoe

Amantine wrote: »

My original reply was that really, you'll find it's a bit more complicated than a yes or no answer... but now that you've explained that science is all about simplifying, I stand corrected! So I'm trying to simplify my answer into a binary one..let me see...is it 0 or 1? No, sorry to be so unscientific, I can't give you a binary answer. #fallaciousall-or-nothingpropaganda

Do you believe vaccines cause autism?

Dohnjoe

bt25 wrote: »

The issue is that the trustworthiness seems to depend on who the source is agreeing with. There is a bit of a double standard that seems to seep into the reactions which from the outside is more clear than it might seem in the middle of it.

It depends on the quality.

What may seem like a credible scientific paper to a lay-person or denialist can be immediately identifiable as pseudo-science or low quality junk to an expert

The internet is full of low quality junk posing as proper science or history

ToBeFrank123

Again, anti vaxxers do not have to prove a vaccine doesn't work. They don't even have to prove it may cause side effects in a tiny minority of whose who receive it.

All they need to do is sow doubt in a small minority of people. If even 10% decide against taking a vaccine based on false rumours, the anti vaxxers have done their job as they have undermined herd immunity. This in turn causes measles or other outbreaks. If they cite a bogus link between mmr and autism, a small number of gullible people will give credence to the link.

Some anti vaxxers are the modern equivalent of the person who shouts "fire" in a crowded room.

The sad irony is most if not all anti vaxxers were vaccinated themselves, yet they would deny the same human right to others, putting vulnerable people, particularly babies under the age of 12 months at risk of contracting diseases such as measles.

These people are dangerous, no two ways about it.

Dohnjoe

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Again, anti vaxxers do not have to prove a vaccine doesn't work. They don't even have to prove it may cause side effects in a tiny minority of whose who receive it.

All they need to do is sow doubt in a small minority of people. If even 10% decide against taking a vaccine based on false rumours, the anti vaxxers have done their job as they have undermined herd immunity. This in turn causes measles or other outbreaks. If they cite a bogus link between mmr and autism, a small number of gullible people will give credence to the link.

Some anti vaxxers are the modern equivalent of the person who shouts "fire" in a crowded room.

The sad irony is most if not all anti vaxxers were vaccinated themselves, yet they would deny the same human right to others, putting vulnerable people, particularly babies under the age of 12 months at risk of contracting diseases such as measles.

These people are dangerous, no two ways about it.

There's also this new breed of "more research needs to be done" types who also try to sow doubt whilst sitting on the fence of false skepticism

Corroborated peer reviewed rigorous studies that are more than enough for the near total consensus of medical professionals, are apparently not enough for these lay-people

valoren

While we can laugh at the likes of creationists/flat earthers/moon landing hoaxers/*insert random loony conspiracy theory here*, the health of society is no laughing matter. Remember that before Smallpox was eradicated in 1979, it is estimated that up to half a BILLION people had died from it in the 20th Century alone. The disinformation about vaccines is incredibly dangerous and unfortunately gullible people get caught up in their toxic and deluded spin. Many of us don't have the scientific grounding to determine that we're being bull****ted. It's that which is the hallmark for any conspiracy theory as they are the one's who appear to have credibility but what they propose is dangerous, backward thinking and unlike benign hoaxers, deadly. Thankfully infectious diseases and their capacity to kill people is quite rightly regarded as no laughing matter by serious people who are dedicated to people's health and wellness and to the total eradication of deadly diseases. Those of us (including this government) who are rationally in league with these people do so in order to protect in no particular order, ourselves, our children and our society.

Igotadose

Someone here asked about research into the immunization schedule. Sure enough, it's been done. Nice paper summarizing the contents here:
https://www.nap.edu/read/13563/chapter/1

Summary paragraph near the end: The committee’s efforts to identify priorities for recommended research studies did not reveal an evidence base suggesting that the childhood immunization schedule is linked to autoimmune diseases, asthma, hypersensitivity, seizures, child developmental disorders, learning disorders or developmental disorders, or attention deficit or disruptive behavior disorders. Although stakeholder concerns should be one of the elements used to drive searches for scientific evidence, these concerns alone, absent epidemiological or biological evidence, do not warrant the initiation of high-cost research studies. The committee concludes that the use of existing data from database systems to conduct observational studies offers the best means for ongoing research efforts about the immunization schedule’s safety.

ToBeFrank123

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's also this new breed of "more research needs to be done" types who also try to sow doubt whilst sitting on the fence of false skepticism

Corroborated peer reviewed rigorous studies that are more than enough for the near total consensus of medical professionals, are apparently not enough for these lay-people

Yes anti vaxxers encompass many people.

Religious fundamentalists who are suspicious of modern medicine
People who are sceptical about everything - moon landings, 9/11, the benefits of vaccines. They are quick to believe conspiracies however - and vaccines for them fit into the conspiracy niche - from experience its very difficult for people like this to see common sense.
As you said, such people are quick to believe conspiracies without a shred of hard evidence to support them, and slow to believe other things which have been peer reviewed and studied in detail for years.
Peer pressure among parents - Yummy Mum tells her friends she doesn't vaccinate her kids and doesn't believe in vaccination. She's already introduced doubt into her group of friends.
Water cooler chats at work
Barstool chats - many men form their views talking or listening on the barstool
Anecdotal nonsense about a girls arm falling off or some-such after being vaccinated
Big pharma sceptics. They ignore any good Big pharma do such as helping to eradicate most of the serious illnesses that plagued humanity up to and including the 20th century, largely through vaccination.
People who conflate vaccination with other illnesses which happen to occur around the time children or adolescents are vaccinated. Anti Vaxxers are on these like bees to honey.

Again, they don't need proof. They just need to sow doubt. I'd say at this stage most don't even believe the theories and conspiracies they are peddling.

knipex

mamablue wrote: »

Aluminium neurotoxicity: neurobehavioural and oxidative aspects:

"Being involved in the production of reactive oxygen species, aluminium may cause impairments in mitochondrial bioenergetics and may lead to the generation of oxidative stress which may lead to a gradual accumulation of oxidatively modified cellular proteins. In this review, the neuropathologies associated with aluminium exposure in terms of neurobehavioural changes have been discussed. In addition, the impact of aluminium on the mitochondrial functions has also been highlighted."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00204-009-0455-6

Reactive oxygen species. Like those created by sunlight, ozone, hydrogen peroxide, light, polutants, dust, etc etc etc.

Igotadose

knipex wrote: »

Reactive oxygen species. Like those created by sunlight, ozone, hydrogen peroxide, light, polutants, dust, etc etc etc.

Wasting your time, the poster in question has bailed.

knipex

mamablue wrote: »

I believe that autism would exist if there were no vaccines, that not all vaccines are the same and that it dependends on a multitude of factors including adjuvants, pathogens and genetics (like MTHFR mutation for example) of the individual being injected. Ultimately, in all medicine it is always about risk vs benefit. The truth is that we have no idea what the long term effects are of the cocktail of chemicals that we are exposed to on a daily basis. We have no idea of how it affects something as complicated as our immune systems, our epigenetics or the epigenetics of future generation. I believe that vaccines can be life saving but that it's always about risk vs benefit and that there is always a risk. I also know, that certain adjuvants are known toxins and that other adjuvants we have very little science on. Anyone here over the age 25 was not injected with the amount/type of chemicals that we are now injecting our kids with. It's all just one big experiment and only the future will tell what the results are. Anyone who believes that there is science showing that all vaccines are safe is mistaking. The science we have is the tip of the iceberg. Everyday new interesting papers are coming out sometimes turning certain theories on their head. Antibiotics are linked with obesity, they can be life saving but people take them for the wrong reasons, feed them to lifestock and only now are we realising the long term effects both on our health (like our microbiome and on antibiotic resistance). Again it's about risk vs. benefit. You should take an antibiotic if you have pneumonia, but probably not if you have cold. I got vaccinated against yellow fever before going to Africa but my vaccine didn't have any questionable adjuvants. Would I inject mercury, aluminium, MSG, Formaldehyde, Squalene, polysorbate 80 etc into my child? Not in a million years. Would my child be fine if I did? Probably. Then again, he is part of the 9% of the population who has two MTHFR mutation so maybe not. But I'd have to be very, very naive to think it's without any risk.

The link between antibiotics and gut mictbiota is well documented as has the abuse of antibiotics by both patients, doctors and the food sector. The full impact of gut microbiota on general health and well being, while not fully understood is accepted, however appropriate use of antibiotics has little longer impact on gut microbiota and certainly less impact than sepsis.. Antibiotics have been used to boost weight in meat production for decades and has been. Warned against since resistance to antibiotics has been a concern (decades). The abuse and over use of antibiotics isn't due to a failure of science, it's a failure if people and goverments to listen to science

Capt'n Midnight

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's also this new breed of "more research needs to be done" types who also try to sow doubt whilst sitting on the fence of false skepticism

EXACTLY the same in the mobile phone "debates".

We've been using mobile phones since 1973. Billions of them.
Any increase in symptoms would have been seen long ago.

We know being able to contact friends, family and the emergency services with them can be a real lifesaver.

But the mantra was "more research needs to be done" because - scaremongering ?



As if you could persuade several billion people to abandon their phones for a few decades to look for a possible outcome so small that that's the only way to get matching control group. And without a plausible mechanism to test.


It's like a superstition.

Capt'n Midnight

knipex wrote: »

Reactive oxygen species. Like those created by sunlight, ozone, hydrogen peroxide, light, polutants, dust, etc etc etc.

that article starts off "Aluminium is the most widely distributed metal in the environment" so yeah . good luck avoiding something our ancestors have evolved to deal with for the last few billion years.

Oxygen in the air is also difficult to avoid, because unfortunately it causes cancer.

Capt'n Midnight

People don't evaluate risks properly

With the EU and Local Elections coming up we need to take care !


Indonesia election: More than 270 election staff die counting votes

mulbot

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

that article starts off "Aluminium is the most widely distributed metal in the environment" so yeah . good luck avoiding something our ancestors have evolved to deal with for the last few billion years.

Oxygen in the air is also difficult to avoid, because unfortunately it causes cancer.

Billion?

Capt'n Midnight

knipex wrote: »

Reactive oxygen species. Like those created by sunlight, ozone, hydrogen peroxide, light, polutants, dust, etc etc etc.

that article starts off "Aluminium is the most widely distributed metal in the environment" so yeah . good luck avoiding something our ancestors have evolved to deal with for the last few billion years.

Oxygen in the air is also difficult to avoid, because unfortunately it causes cancer.

Amantine

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Oxygen in the air is also difficult to avoid, because unfortunately it causes cancer.

Oxygen is harmless! Why don't you inject some air so we have proof, go on, you'll be fine!

Amantine

Oh no, we have a measles epidemic!!! Everyone! We're all going to die!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6NEv6yCEg

ToBeFrank123

There have always been people who are sceptical of scientific advancements.

There were probably, and we know there were the same doubts, among many about the invention of the steam engine, mobile phones, the automobile (guy walking with red flag) airplanes (emissions) X-rays, antibiotics, vaccines, and going back further the invention of bronze or iron.
There were likely people who prophesied doom when the wheel was invented.

ohnonotgmail

Amantine wrote: »

Oh no, we have a measles epidemic!!! Everyone! We're all going to die!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6NEv6yCEg

Tell that to the kids that have died from it. Oh wait, you can't.

Dohnjoe

Amantine wrote: »

Oh no, we have a measles epidemic!!! Everyone! We're all going to die!!!

Why the bizarre childishness?

I had measles as a kid, it's highly unpleasant. It should be pretty much eradicated, but is making a comeback due to idiots on the internet sowing doubt at every opportunity

batgoat

Amantine wrote: »

Oxygen is harmless! Why don't you inject some air so we have proof, go on, you'll be fine!

Let's not forget the children who have ended up with brain damage, deafness and other issues. It's far from minor and it's more illustrative of your general ignorance.

iamwhoiam

Amantine wrote: »

Oh no, we have a measles epidemic!!! Everyone! We're all going to die!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6NEv6yCEg

Have you ever heard of measles encephalites ? I am guessing not but I have .Its a dreadful disease and leaves a child brain damaged and often unable to speak or see or communicate .It leave parents devastated as they watch a child decline and suffer and scream in frustration .Do not be flippant about measles

Amantine

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Have you ever heard of measles encephalites ? I am guessing not but I have .Its a dreadful disease and leaves a child brain damaged and often unable to speak or see or communicate .It leave parents devastated as they watch a child decline and suffer and scream in frustration .Do not be flippant about measles

Oh no! We're all going to die from chicken pox! We better vaccinate against chicken pox before all the kids die!


Serious complications from chickenpox include (from the pure as snow CDC):

Bacterial infections of the skin and soft tissues in children, including Group A streptococcal infections
Infection of the lungs (pneumonia)
Infection or inflammation of the brain encephalitis, cerebellar ataxia)
Bleeding problems (hemorrhagic complications)
Bloodstream infections (sepsis)
Dehydration

source: https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html

ohnonotgmail

Amantine wrote: »

Oh no! We're all going to die from chicken pox! We better vaccinate against chicken pox before all the kids die!


Serious complications from chickenpox include (from the pure as snow CDC):

Bacterial infections of the skin and soft tissues in children, including Group A streptococcal infections
Infection of the lungs (pneumonia)
Infection or inflammation of the brain encephalitis, cerebellar ataxia)
Bleeding problems (hemorrhagic complications)
Bloodstream infections (sepsis)
Dehydration

source: https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html

your responses are increasingly childish.