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Nightvision law/license/legality
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08-05-2021 11:54pm================================================================================================
MOD NOTE
Split off from this thread.
================================================================================================No one is saying a screw will have you before a judge and if it ever came to that the judge would most definitely dismiss the case.
The absurdity is the law.- A NV scope is a firearm. So to have just the scope, no gun, needs a firearms license.
- The guy mentioned previously in court over a bullet display. Legally speaking he had to have licenses for all calibers, but case was dismissed/thrown out.
- The toy crossbows that kids use, with the sucker darts. Legally they are a crossbow and hence a restricted firearm requiring a restricted license. You'll never see a kid before the courts over it.
Common sense will, and should, have a large part in this. The OP asked about the legal stance and he got his answers, however what they do after that is their own business.
Incorrect, a NV scope needs a Supers authorisation not a separate license."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
Post edited by Cass on0
Comments
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Rows Grower wrote: »Incorrect, a NV scope needs a Supers authorisation not a separate license.
Indeed, it’s not classed as a firearm, like thermal you can possess and use only becomes an issue when you put it on a firearm.
Cass is wrong here.
Otherwise building energy raters and fire service would fall foul of the law.0 -
Rows Grower wrote: »Incorrect, a NV scope needs a Supers authorisation not a separate license.
Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act:(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e), and
Any light emitting, including NV, scope is classed as a firearm and requires a license. Any NV add-on, which can be mounted to a firearm, needs authorisation. If its never mounted to a firearm and is only handheld it requires no authorisation.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Richard308 wrote: »Indeed, it’s not classed as a firearm,like thermal you can possess and use only becomes an issue when you put it on a firearm.Cass is wrong here.Otherwise building energy raters and fire service would fall foul of the law.
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A scope is.
For add ons, yes. For scopes, no.
Nope.
If they use a NV or other light emitting scope then yes they need a firearms license. If they are using a hand held device with no intent to mount it to a firearm they need nothing.
So basically you’re saying I’m right on all counts.
Didn’t think you could admit you were wrong.
You don’t need a license you need an authorization which isn’t a license.
And only becomes an issue when you mount it on a firearm.0 -
Richard308 wrote: »So basically you’re saying I’m right on all counts.Didn’t think you could admit you were wrong.You don’t need a license you need an authorization which isn’t a license.
Read what i'm writing carefully.
A NV, or any other light emitting, scope is a firearm in itself and requires a license. Any hand held unit that can be mounted to a firearm and is intended to be used as such requires authorisation. Any hand held unit not intended to be mounted requires nothing.
The key word in all this is scope. A telescopic sight unit with NV/IR or other light emitting ability.And only becomes an issue when you mount it on a firearm.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Not even close.
No need as i'm not, and lets keep the personal attacks out of this. Play the ball, not the man.
Nope again.
Read what i'm writing carefully.
A NV, or any other light emitting, scope is a firearm in itself and requires a license. Any hand held unit that can be mounted to a firearm and is intended to be used as such requires authorisation. Any hand held unit not intended to be mounted requires nothing.
The key word in all this is scope. A telescopic sight unit with NV/IR or other light emitting ability.
Answered above.
Pick a scope, pard, Yukon, flir. Anyone at all. I don’t mind particular model.
Is it only of use on the rifle or can you see livestock etc with when used in free hand.
So it’s dual use isn’t ?
Not a firearm, by any stretch of the imagination.
Put it on a rifle, you need an authorization ( a letter from your super to use it)
A license you pay €80, get a separate license number. any on this forum pay €80 for nv?? And0 -
Richard308 wrote: »Pick a scope, pard, Yukon, flir. Anyone at all. I don’t mind particular model.Is it only of use on the rifle or can you see livestock etc with when used in free hand.So it’s dual use isn’t ?Not a firearm, by any stretch of the imagination.
Do you see the quoted piece of legislation above? That is the law regardless of what you think/believe. This issue has been covered at length over the years and the answer is always the same.
Dedicated scopes require licensing regardless of whether you mount it to a firearm or not, how you use it, and even if you don't have a gun. One of these (example):Put it on a rifle, you need an authorization ( a letter from your super to use it)
That only applies to add ons. By add ons i mean accessories that act the same in their purpose but are attached to a regular telescopic scope. Something like this:A license you pay €80, get a separate license number.any on this forum pay €80 for nv?? And
However if you had no gun and wanted a scope then you need a license and without a firearm you would need to pay for a separate license for it which as a firearm would carry the €80 fee. However i know of no one who is not a gun owner with such a scope.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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The legislation again, in case it was missed above this time with a link to the 1990 act.
Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act4.—(1) In the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990, “firearm” means—
(g)(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e), andForum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Seeing as your so up on the law you better tell Amazon and https://www.camera.ie/binoculars-scopes-telescopes-monocular-rangefinder-night-vision-microscopes/night-vision-scopes
To get their firearms dealers licences. And screw-fix for that matter.
The law is an ass as they say, you have never got a night vision license.
Me either but I know plenty who have and it’s an authorization to use. You can buy them anywhere. Just for the craic im going to apply on an fca1 for a pard or Yukon. No rifle attached. I’ll let you know what they say. I’ll tell them cass assured me I had to have it.0 -
Rows Grower wrote: »You've been trying to convince people they need a separate licence for a NV scopeand now you are actually disagreeing with yourself now in this post.
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Richard308 wrote: »Seeing as your so up on the law you better tell Amazon and https://www.camera.ie/binoculars-scopes-telescopes-monocular-rangefinder-night-vision-microscopes/night-vision-scopes
To get their firearms dealers licences. And screw-fix for that matter.The law is an ass as they say, have you ever got a night vision license?Me either but I know plenty who have and it’s an authorization to use.You can buy them anywhere.Just for the craic im going to apply on an fca1 for a pard or Yukon. No rifle attached. I’ll let you know what they say.I’ll tell them cass assured me I had to have it.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Richard308 wrote: »Just for the craic im going to apply on an fca1 for a pard or Yukon. No rifle attached. I’ll let you know what they say. I’ll tell them cass assured me I had to have it.
Page 41 of the Commissioner's Guidelines updated as of Sept. 2018:TELESCOPIC SIGHTS
In the Firearms Act 1925 to 2009, the definition of a firearm additionally includes: 'telescopic sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to befitted to afirearm .... ' Such devices would fall into three broad categories as follows and again an applicant must satisfy the issuing person that he/she has demonstrated 'good reason' to acquire the sight:- (i) An Active Night Sight - this device emits an invisible light beam which illuminates objects and would assist with identification of objects.
- (ii) A Passive Night Sight - this device does not emit any beam but amplifies any ambient light (from stars or moon) which enables objects to be distinguished and identified.
- (iii) Thermal Image Sight - this device resolves the heat signature given offby warm objects and enables identification of objects.
Look forward to finding out how you get on with your application.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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You'd probably be better off telling them section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act told says its a firearm and that section 3.2 of the FCA1 is for that exact purpose, but by all means direct them to this thread.
I’d say they get they’re info from more reliable sources than you, taking parts of an act out of context. right I’m out for the night way past my bed time. Been a blast, love the debate and craic. Chat tomorrow lads.0 -
Richard308 wrote: »I’d say they get they’re info from more reliable sources than you, taking parts of an act out of context.
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I'm not the source, the legislation is. Or the Commissioner if they need more than that.
You think the legislation and Commissioner are wrong? Fair enough.
Its a pity in this day in age that there isnt a proper faq section or contact email on garda.ie to answer this kind of stuff. A lot of firearms licencing in ROI is down to interpretation by the local station and one SI view compared to that of his/her neighbour. It shouldn't be up to joe public to try and interpret what was meant by particular phraseology in a law.We are not solicitors. Its fine arguing the toss on an internet forum ,but we should have some concrete universally accepted source that you can point a garda to if stopped at a check point . The fact that both of you believe you are correct demonstrates there is ambiguity there and the correct meaning is not universally understood.
I stand to be corrected but i doubt a rfd goes through the same import procedure for a nv scope as they would for a rifle. Which they should if it is regarded as a firearm. Because the rfd does not then treat it as a firearm this passes on the perception (rightly or wrongly ) to the customer that it is no big deal owning them without the appropriate paperwork.
Ive been reading this forum with 15 or 20 years ,its always been the same.
Some lads get silencers no bother ,some cant get them at all
Some lads get 243 for foxing only some lads dont.
Some lads are asked to release guns before they are allowed get another one ,more lads have 10.
some lads cant have guns of similar calibres ,some lads have 2 or more guns of the same calibre.
Its not so much whats in the statute books its what you can get over the counter from the rfd
dictates what your gun cabinet looks like whether you are meant to have them or not.0 -
Rows Grower wrote: »You're not qualified to do that.
Cass is quoting the legislation to you, exactly how it's worded. He isn't wrong, like most of the firearms legislation worded badly and not correctly thought about.
Simple example would be an Airsoft gun, as long as it fires below 1joule of power is classed as a toy, stick a stronger spring in one and now it's a firearm, I'd probably have to beat something with it to do any damage but it's still a firearm.
Legislators at the time probably didn't see such a demand would actually arise.
Also is there not a difference between a spotter and an actual thermal/NV scope as spotters like the ones linked earlier would be designed to mont to say a camera stand. Same difference being having binoculars and a scope.0 -
Rows Grower wrote: »You're not qualified to do that.
Not qualified to copy and paste the text of law? Seems straight forward enough.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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A lot of firearms licencing in ROI is down to interpretation by the local station and one SI view compared to that of his/her neighbour.It shouldn't be up to joe public to try and interpret what was meant by particular phraseology in a law......................The fact that both of you believe you are correct demonstrates there is ambiguity there and the correct meaning is not universally understood.
Its actually rare enough to get it so clear and straight forward.I stand to be corrected but i doubt a rfd goes through the same import procedure for a nv scope as they would for a rifle.
I mentioned it, briefly, above. Deer callers. RFDs can bring them in, sell them, and all is good. However the moment someone uses one they're breaking the law Section 35 of the 1976 Wildlife Act.(d) a person shall not use an electrical or other instrument or appliance (including recording apparatus) emitting or imitating birdcalls or the calls of wild mammals for the purpose of hunting a protected wild bird or a protected wild animal which is a mammal.Which they should if it is regarded as a firearm. Because the rfd does not then treat it as a firearm this passes on the perception (rightly or wrongly ) to the customer that it is no big deal owning them without the appropriate paperwork.Ive been reading this forum with 15 or 20 years ,its always been the same.
Some lads get silencers no bother ,some cant get them at all
Some lads get 243 for foxing only some lads dont.
Some lads are asked to release guns before they are allowed get another one ,more lads have 10.
some lads cant have guns of similar calibres ,some lads have 2 or more guns of the same calibre.
Lads getting subs from a 22lr to a 308 but another cannot change from one 12g shotgun to another 12g shotgun. I've also seen my fair share of stupid things too such as lads with restricted firearms on unrestricted licenses and the RFDs handing them out without blinking an eyelid. This means the guy applying didn't know what license he needed, the RFD didn't know or tell them or check the license, and the Super issued a license they cannot issue.Its not so much whats in the statute books its what you can get over the counter from the rfd dictates what your gun cabinet looks like whether you are meant to have them or not.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Rows Grower wrote: »You're not qualified to do that.
And your qualifications are what exactly ?.
It seems to be irrelevant what a particular individual says here or shows you in the SI the relevant information, you choose to ignore this at every turn and obviously have an axe to grind.
I come on here to learn and educate myself on aspects of firearms ownership I know little about from all the knowledgeable contributors on here.
So can you please leave your petty little school yard dispute to the playground it is getting tiresome at this stage.
The relevant SI have been copied above if you have an issue take it up with the people that wrote it.
Rant over I await the onslaught.0 -
Rows Grower wrote: »I think your rant is actually more of an unwarranted personal attack to be honest.
If you read back through the short thread (that I didn't start) you might notice how wrong you are.
I await the apology.
The relevant information has been provided numerous times, ignore it if you want.0 -
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Richard308 wrote: »Seeing as your so up on the law you better tell Amazon and https://www.camera.ie/binoculars-scopes-telescopes-monocular-rangefinder-night-vision-microscopes/night-vision-scopes
To get their firearms dealers licences. And screw-fix for that matter.
.
They won't need one, as these are, are not capable of, or are designed to be weapons mountable. Now no doubt you could duct tape them to a scope,or use some ring clamps and adopters and use them as such,but their primary function is a handheld unit,so they can be freely sold."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »They won't need one, as these are, are not capable of, or are designed to be weapons mountable. Now no doubt you could duct tape them to a scope,or use some ring clamps and adopters and use them as such,but their primary function is a handheld unit,so they can be freely sold.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620569185&sr=8-3
This is weapon mountable. States it in the description. My point is they’re duel use. If they’re not on a firearm they are not an issue.
I can’t be clearer people use them for all sorts of things, lifestock, ber ratings, fire service, search and rescue. It is not an issue until they are mounted on a rifle without the required paperwork from the superintendent.0 -
Richard308 wrote: »https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620569185&sr=8-3
This is weapon mountable. States it in the description. My point is they’re duel use. If they’re not on a firearm they are not an issue.
I can’t be clearer people use them for all sorts of things, lifestock, ber ratings, fire service, search and rescue. It is not an issue until they are mounted on a rifle without the required paperwork from the superintendent.
That's not an obscure example either, it's probably the best selling night vision scope in the world actually."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Richard308 wrote: »I can’t be clearer people use them for all sorts of things, lifestock, ber ratings, fire service, search and rescue. It is not an issue until they are mounted on a rifle without the required paperwork from the superintendent.
I'm looking at the one you linked to just above this post and the ones in the link a few posts up. One thing they have in common, they are designed for handheld use or to be mounted to a firearm (says so in their description). However they are not scopes. I know the ones you linked to in post #15 call them scopes, but actually only one calls itself that, the Yukon and Bushnell call them a Monocular which is actually more apt. The SiOynx ones are the only ones that claim to be firearm mountable, but even if you used duct tape on the others and stuck them to your gun they are still not a scope, just a light amplification device with no means to aim or adjust like a scope.
Now the law, Commissioner's guidelines, etc. make no mention of crosshairs, but for the purpose of this point i'll use it. Those units would not be a scope because they have no way to be used as an aiming device like a scope.
The law, as i've said throughout this thread and the years on similar threads, says only scopes (telescopic sight is the actual term) are classed as firearms in themselves.
The one you linked to above, the Pard, is marked as binoculars. So its designed as a hand held unit but has the option of being firearm mounted. This means that as a handheld unit it requires no authorisation and when its mounted to a firearm only then does it require the authorisation, but neither are scopes which means the point I initially made about scopes (and only scopes) being firearms and hence requiring a license does not apply.
To summarize there are three categories:- Hand held, not mounted to firearm - No license, no authorisation needed.
- Hand held, mounted - Authorisation required
- Dedicated scope - Requires license regardless of whether its mounted to a firearm or not as the legislation says its a firearm subject to the same application process and fee as a firearm.
You seem to be arguing that those in cateogories 1 and 2 above require either no authorisation or just authorisation and i'm not disagreeing with you on that, and haven't since the thread started.
The ones in category 3 are the ones you're getting tripped up on. These are licensable and require a license regardless of their use (hand held/firearm mounted). That is the one I have only ever referred to as per my post #7.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Forgot one other category...Head mounted..No authorization required.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Foot mounted, waist mounted, rearview, stick, etc. Once its not mounted to a gun the list is, possibly, endless. Think i'll stick to handheld as a generic term for all those.
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Here is one for you.
I'm looking at the one you linked to just above this post and the ones in the link a few posts up. One thing they have in common, they are designed for handheld use or to be mounted to a firearm (says so in their description). However they are not scopes. I know the ones you linked to in post #15 call them scopes, but actually only one calls itself that, the Yukon and Bushnell call them a Monocular which is actually more apt. The SiOynx ones are the only ones that claim to be firearm mountable, but even if you used duct tape on the others and stuck them to your gun they are still not a scope, just a light amplification device with no means to aim or adjust like a scope.
Now the law, Commissioner's guidelines, etc. make no mention of crosshairs, but for the purpose of this point i'll use it. Those units would not be a scope because they have no way to be used as an aiming device like a scope.
The law, as i've said throughout this thread and the years on similar threads, says only scopes (telescopic sight is the actual term) are classed as firearms in themselves.
The one you linked to above, the Pard, is marked as binoculars. So its designed as a hand held unit but has the option of being firearm mounted. This means that as a handheld unit it requires no authorisation and when its mounted to a firearm only then does it require the authorisation, but neither are scopes which means the point I initially made about scopes (and only scopes) being firearms and hence requiring a license does not apply.
To summarize there are three categories:- Hand held, not mounted to firearm - No license, no authorisation needed.
- Hand held, mounted - Authorisation required
- Dedicated scope - Requires license regardless of whether its mounted to a firearm or not as the legislation says its a firearm subject to the same application process and fee as a firearm.
You seem to be arguing that those in cateogories 1 and 2 above require either no authorisation or just authorisation and i'm not disagreeing with you on that, and haven't since the thread started.
The ones in category 3 are the ones you're getting tripped up on. These are licensable and require a license regardless of their use (hand held/firearm mounted). That is the one I have only ever referred to as per my post #7.
I thought you said they all need a license. That pard is a scope. It has a crosshair and illuminated reticle. Do I see a bit of back peddling. Getting the fca1 here. Could you help ? Type of firearm? Calibre? Action type
https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/fca1-firearm-certificate-application-2020.pdf0 -
Richard308 wrote: »I thought you said they all need a license.That pard is a scope. It has a crosshair and illuminated reticle.Do I see a bit of back peddlingGetting the fca1 here. Could you help ? Type of firearm? Calibre? Action type
Fill in:- Section 1 - All parts, ticking "firearm".
- Section 2 - All parts except perhaps section 2.5
- Section 3 - Section 3.1 fill in make, model, serial number only.
- Section 3.2 - Ticks sights
- Section 3.3 - Where you bought it
- Section 3.4 - leave blank
- Section 3.5 - Fill it in
- Section 4 - Fill in all relevant sections
- Section 5 - Tick appropriate box in 5.1 and fill in details of land on 5.2
- Sign & date it.
Separate piece of paper include the extra details for the relevant section including the description of the item as a dedicated nightvision scope that under Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act requires licensing due to its status as a firearm.
Send it off and wait.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Rows Grower wrote: »Yet there is no such thing as a licence for a Night Vision scope here in Ireland.It has already been explained in layman's language a Night Vision scope needs the authorisation of a Superintendent not a licence.
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Richard308 wrote: »Getting the fca1 here.
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