Nightvision law/license/legality

Rows Grower

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MOD NOTE

Split off from this thread.

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Cass wrote: »

No one is saying a screw will have you before a judge and if it ever came to that the judge would most definitely dismiss the case.

The absurdity is the law.

• A NV scope is a firearm. So to have just the scope, no gun, needs a firearms license.
• The guy mentioned previously in court over a bullet display. Legally speaking he had to have licenses for all calibers, but case was dismissed/thrown out.
• The toy crossbows that kids use, with the sucker darts. Legally they are a crossbow and hence a restricted firearm requiring a restricted license. You'll never see a kid before the courts over it.

Common sense will, and should, have a large part in this. The OP asked about the legal stance and he got his answers, however what they do after that is their own business.

Incorrect, a NV scope needs a Supers authorisation not a separate license.

Richard308

Rows Grower wrote: »

Incorrect, a NV scope needs a Supers authorisation not a separate license.

Indeed, it’s not classed as a firearm, like thermal you can possess and use only becomes an issue when you put it on a firearm.

Cass is wrong here.

Otherwise building energy raters and fire service would fall foul of the law.

Cass

Rows Grower wrote: »

Incorrect, a NV scope needs a Supers authorisation not a separate license.

Wrong again.

Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act:

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e), and

Any light emitting, including NV, scope is classed as a firearm and requires a license. Any NV add-on, which can be mounted to a firearm, needs authorisation. If its never mounted to a firearm and is only handheld it requires no authorisation.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Indeed, it’s not classed as a firearm,

A scope is.

like thermal you can possess and use only becomes an issue when you put it on a firearm.

For add ons, yes. For scopes, no.

Cass is wrong here.

Nope.

Otherwise building energy raters and fire service would fall foul of the law.

If they use a NV or other light emitting scope then yes they need a firearms license. If they are using a hand held device with no intent to mount it to a firearm they need nothing.

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

A scope is.

For add ons, yes. For scopes, no.


Nope.


If they use a NV or other light emitting scope then yes they need a firearms license. If they are using a hand held device with no intent to mount it to a firearm they need nothing.

So basically you’re saying I’m right on all counts.
Didn’t think you could admit you were wrong.

You don’t need a license you need an authorization which isn’t a license.

And only becomes an issue when you mount it on a firearm.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

So basically you’re saying I’m right on all counts.

Not even close.

Didn’t think you could admit you were wrong.

No need as i'm not, and lets keep the personal attacks out of this. Play the ball, not the man.

You don’t need a license you need an authorization which isn’t a license.

Nope again.

Read what i'm writing carefully.

A NV, or any other light emitting, scope is a firearm in itself and requires a license. Any hand held unit that can be mounted to a firearm and is intended to be used as such requires authorisation. Any hand held unit not intended to be mounted requires nothing.

The key word in all this is scope. A telescopic sight unit with NV/IR or other light emitting ability.

And only becomes an issue when you mount it on a firearm.

Answered above.

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

Not even close.

No need as i'm not, and lets keep the personal attacks out of this. Play the ball, not the man.


Nope again.

Read what i'm writing carefully.

A NV, or any other light emitting, scope is a firearm in itself and requires a license. Any hand held unit that can be mounted to a firearm and is intended to be used as such requires authorisation. Any hand held unit not intended to be mounted requires nothing.

The key word in all this is scope. A telescopic sight unit with NV/IR or other light emitting ability.


Answered above.

Pick a scope, pard, Yukon, flir. Anyone at all. I don’t mind particular model.
Is it only of use on the rifle or can you see livestock etc with when used in free hand.
So it’s dual use isn’t ?
Not a firearm, by any stretch of the imagination.
Put it on a rifle, you need an authorization ( a letter from your super to use it)
A license you pay €80, get a separate license number. any on this forum pay €80 for nv?? And

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Pick a scope, pard, Yukon, flir. Anyone at all. I don’t mind particular model.

I'm not familiar with the various models of Thermal/NV/IR scopes.

Is it only of use on the rifle or can you see livestock etc with when used in free hand.

I'm sure it can be used off the firearm too.

So it’s dual use isn’t ?

Yes.

Not a firearm, by any stretch of the imagination.

Wrong.

Do you see the quoted piece of legislation above? That is the law regardless of what you think/believe. This issue has been covered at length over the years and the answer is always the same.

Dedicated scopes require licensing regardless of whether you mount it to a firearm or not, how you use it, and even if you don't have a gun. One of these (example):

Put it on a rifle, you need an authorization ( a letter from your super to use it)

Nope.

That only applies to add ons. By add ons i mean accessories that act the same in their purpose but are attached to a regular telescopic scope. Something like this:

A license you pay €80

Correct.

, get a separate license number.

For the scope? Nope, its the same process as a suppressor. However i believe it's only recorded on PULSE according to those that have gotten the license for one, but without any distinguishing marker on the license to indicate you have the license for the "light emitting" scope.

any on this forum pay €80 for nv?? And

Don't know. Doubt it. As said it's worked on the same principle as suppressors. You apply with the firearm so its included in the €80 fee.

However if you had no gun and wanted a scope then you need a license and without a firearm you would need to pay for a separate license for it which as a firearm would carry the €80 fee. However i know of no one who is not a gun owner with such a scope.

Cass

The legislation again, in case it was missed above this time with a link to the 1990 act.

Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act

Cass wrote: »

4.—(1) In the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990, “firearm” means—

(g)(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e), and

Richard308

Seeing as your so up on the law you better tell Amazon and https://www.camera.ie/binoculars-scopes-telescopes-monocular-rangefinder-night-vision-microscopes/night-vision-scopes
To get their firearms dealers licences. And screw-fix for that matter.

The law is an ass as they say, you have never got a night vision license.

Me either but I know plenty who have and it’s an authorization to use. You can buy them anywhere. Just for the craic im going to apply on an fca1 for a pard or Yukon. No rifle attached. I’ll let you know what they say. I’ll tell them cass assured me I had to have it.

Cass

Rows Grower wrote: »

You've been trying to convince people they need a separate licence for a NV scope

I'm telling people the law.

and now you are actually disagreeing with yourself now in this post.

Nope. You're not understanding what is being said.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Seeing as your so up on the law you better tell Amazon and https://www.camera.ie/binoculars-scopes-telescopes-monocular-rangefinder-night-vision-microscopes/night-vision-scopes
To get their firearms dealers licences. And screw-fix for that matter.

Why would i be involved in that? The fact they sell units is nothing to do with me. That is the purview of the DoJ/AGS.

The law is an ass as they say, have you ever got a night vision license?

No.

Me either but I know plenty who have and it’s an authorization to use.

You are talking about scopes now? If so then did they tick the box in section 3.2 of the FCA1? If so they are licensed.

You can buy them anywhere.

Don't doubt it. You can buy Deer callers but they're illegal. So not seeing your point.

Just for the craic im going to apply on an fca1 for a pard or Yukon. No rifle attached. I’ll let you know what they say.

Do.

I’ll tell them cass assured me I had to have it.

You'd probably be better off telling them section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act told says its a firearm and that section 3.2 of the FCA1 is for that exact purpose, but by all means direct them to this thread.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Just for the craic im going to apply on an fca1 for a pard or Yukon. No rifle attached. I’ll let you know what they say. I’ll tell them cass assured me I had to have it.

Even better tell them the Commissioner said so too:

Page 41 of the Commissioner's Guidelines updated as of Sept. 2018:

TELESCOPIC SIGHTS
In the Firearms Act 1925 to 2009, the definition of a firearm additionally includes: 'telescopic sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to befitted to afirearm .... ' Such devices would fall into three broad categories as follows and again an applicant must satisfy the issuing person that he/she has demonstrated 'good reason' to acquire the sight:

• (i) An Active Night Sight - this device emits an invisible light beam which illuminates objects and would assist with identification of objects.
• (ii) A Passive Night Sight - this device does not emit any beam but amplifies any ambient light (from stars or moon) which enables objects to be distinguished and identified.
• (iii) Thermal Image Sight - this device resolves the heat signature given offby warm objects and enables identification of objects.

When an applicant is applying for a firearm certificate or its renewal, the application should include whether or not a silencer or telescopic sights are sought for that particular firearm. A subsequent application for a silencer or telescopic sight will require the applicant to re-apply on a new application form FCA 1 and will require the full €80 fee if the application is successful. So it is vitally important, that where applicable, new applicants or applicants applying to renew their firearm certificates ensure that their application/renewal form includes reference to a silencer/telescopic sight. All firearm certificates which include authorisation to hold a silencer, must include details of the authorisation for the silencer in respect of the firearm by inclusion of the letter'S' on the firearms card.

Look forward to finding out how you get on with your application.

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

You'd probably be better off telling them section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act told says its a firearm and that section 3.2 of the FCA1 is for that exact purpose, but by all means direct them to this thread.

I’d say they get they’re info from more reliable sources than you, taking parts of an act out of context. right I’m out for the night way past my bed time. Been a blast, love the debate and craic. Chat tomorrow lads.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

I’d say they get they’re info from more reliable sources than you

I'm not the source, the legislation is. Or the Commissioner if they need more than that.

, taking parts of an act out of context.

You think the legislation and Commissioner are wrong? Fair enough.

gearoidol

Cass wrote: »

I'm not the source, the legislation is. Or the Commissioner if they need more than that.

You think the legislation and Commissioner are wrong? Fair enough.

Its a pity in this day in age that there isnt a proper faq section or contact email on garda.ie to answer this kind of stuff. A lot of firearms licencing in ROI is down to interpretation by the local station and one SI view compared to that of his/her neighbour. It shouldn't be up to joe public to try and interpret what was meant by particular phraseology in a law.We are not solicitors. Its fine arguing the toss on an internet forum ,but we should have some concrete universally accepted source that you can point a garda to if stopped at a check point . The fact that both of you believe you are correct demonstrates there is ambiguity there and the correct meaning is not universally understood.

I stand to be corrected but i doubt a rfd goes through the same import procedure for a nv scope as they would for a rifle. Which they should if it is regarded as a firearm. Because the rfd does not then treat it as a firearm this passes on the perception (rightly or wrongly ) to the customer that it is no big deal owning them without the appropriate paperwork.

Ive been reading this forum with 15 or 20 years ,its always been the same.

Some lads get silencers no bother ,some cant get them at all
Some lads get 243 for foxing only some lads dont.
Some lads are asked to release guns before they are allowed get another one ,more lads have 10.
some lads cant have guns of similar calibres ,some lads have 2 or more guns of the same calibre.

Its not so much whats in the statute books its what you can get over the counter from the rfd
dictates what your gun cabinet looks like whether you are meant to have them or not.

reniwren

Rows Grower wrote: »

You're not qualified to do that.

Cass is quoting the legislation to you, exactly how it's worded. He isn't wrong, like most of the firearms legislation worded badly and not correctly thought about.
Simple example would be an Airsoft gun, as long as it fires below 1joule of power is classed as a toy, stick a stronger spring in one and now it's a firearm, I'd probably have to beat something with it to do any damage but it's still a firearm.
Legislators at the time probably didn't see such a demand would actually arise.
Also is there not a difference between a spotter and an actual thermal/NV scope as spotters like the ones linked earlier would be designed to mont to say a camera stand. Same difference being having binoculars and a scope.

Cass

Rows Grower wrote: »

You're not qualified to do that.

Not qualified to copy and paste the text of law? Seems straight forward enough.

Cass

gearoidol wrote: »

A lot of firearms licencing in ROI is down to interpretation by the local station and one SI view compared to that of his/her neighbour.

Very true.

It shouldn't be up to joe public to try and interpret what was meant by particular phraseology in a law......................The fact that both of you believe you are correct demonstrates there is ambiguity there and the correct meaning is not universally understood.

Thing is on this particular issue its not my interpretation, its what it written both in legislation and the Commissioner's guidelines. I'm not interpreting it merely laying out the exact wording of both the legislation and Commissioner's Guidelines and both are, for once, very clear on the matter even addressing the issue of a second €80 fee if its not applied for when applying for the firearm.

Its actually rare enough to get it so clear and straight forward.

I stand to be corrected but i doubt a rfd goes through the same import procedure for a nv scope as they would for a rifle.

Honestly have on idea of the processes for importing them but as Richard308 showed above camera shops are bringing them in and stocking them so the answer would seem to be no. Of course it could be another case of the absurdity of the law. You touched on it, how an RFD can import some things without the same requirements as for "real" firearms.

I mentioned it, briefly, above. Deer callers. RFDs can bring them in, sell them, and all is good. However the moment someone uses one they're breaking the law Section 35 of the 1976 Wildlife Act.

(d) a person shall not use an electrical or other instrument or appliance (including recording apparatus) emitting or imitating birdcalls or the calls of wild mammals for the purpose of hunting a protected wild bird or a protected wild animal which is a mammal.

Which they should if it is regarded as a firearm. Because the rfd does not then treat it as a firearm this passes on the perception (rightly or wrongly ) to the customer that it is no big deal owning them without the appropriate paperwork.

Correct on that. The other issue being do the AGS know about it? Are they as in the dark when it comes to certain matters on firearms, licensing, etc.?

Ive been reading this forum with 15 or 20 years ,its always been the same.

Some lads get silencers no bother ,some cant get them at all
Some lads get 243 for foxing only some lads dont.
Some lads are asked to release guns before they are allowed get another one ,more lads have 10.
some lads cant have guns of similar calibres ,some lads have 2 or more guns of the same calibre.

The postcode lottery.

Lads getting subs from a 22lr to a 308 but another cannot change from one 12g shotgun to another 12g shotgun. I've also seen my fair share of stupid things too such as lads with restricted firearms on unrestricted licenses and the RFDs handing them out without blinking an eyelid. This means the guy applying didn't know what license he needed, the RFD didn't know or tell them or check the license, and the Super issued a license they cannot issue.

Its not so much whats in the statute books its what you can get over the counter from the rfd dictates what your gun cabinet looks like whether you are meant to have them or not.

True.

solarwinds

Rows Grower wrote: »

You're not qualified to do that.

And your qualifications are what exactly ?.
It seems to be irrelevant what a particular individual says here or shows you in the SI the relevant information, you choose to ignore this at every turn and obviously have an axe to grind.
I come on here to learn and educate myself on aspects of firearms ownership I know little about from all the knowledgeable contributors on here.
So can you please leave your petty little school yard dispute to the playground it is getting tiresome at this stage.
The relevant SI have been copied above if you have an issue take it up with the people that wrote it.
Rant over I await the onslaught.

solarwinds

Rows Grower wrote: »

I think your rant is actually more of an unwarranted personal attack to be honest.

If you read back through the short thread (that I didn't start) you might notice how wrong you are.

I await the apology.

The relevant information has been provided numerous times, ignore it if you want.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Seeing as your so up on the law you better tell Amazon and https://www.camera.ie/binoculars-scopes-telescopes-monocular-rangefinder-night-vision-microscopes/night-vision-scopes
To get their firearms dealers licences. And screw-fix for that matter.

.

They won't need one, as these are, are not capable of, or are designed to be weapons mountable. Now no doubt you could duct tape them to a scope,or use some ring clamps and adopters and use them as such,but their primary function is a handheld unit,so they can be freely sold.

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They won't need one, as these are, are not capable of, or are designed to be weapons mountable. Now no doubt you could duct tape them to a scope,or use some ring clamps and adopters and use them as such,but their primary function is a handheld unit,so they can be freely sold.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620569185&sr=8-3

This is weapon mountable. States it in the description. My point is they’re duel use. If they’re not on a firearm they are not an issue.

I can’t be clearer people use them for all sorts of things, lifestock, ber ratings, fire service, search and rescue. It is not an issue until they are mounted on a rifle without the required paperwork from the superintendent.

Rows Grower

Richard308 wrote: »

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620569185&sr=8-3

This is weapon mountable. States it in the description. My point is they’re duel use. If they’re not on a firearm they are not an issue.

I can’t be clearer people use them for all sorts of things, lifestock, ber ratings, fire service, search and rescue. It is not an issue until they are mounted on a rifle without the required paperwork from the superintendent.

That's not an obscure example either, it's probably the best selling night vision scope in the world actually.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

I can’t be clearer people use them for all sorts of things, lifestock, ber ratings, fire service, search and rescue. It is not an issue until they are mounted on a rifle without the required paperwork from the superintendent.

Here is one for you.

I'm looking at the one you linked to just above this post and the ones in the link a few posts up. One thing they have in common, they are designed for handheld use or to be mounted to a firearm (says so in their description). However they are not scopes. I know the ones you linked to in post #15 call them scopes, but actually only one calls itself that, the Yukon and Bushnell call them a Monocular which is actually more apt. The SiOynx ones are the only ones that claim to be firearm mountable, but even if you used duct tape on the others and stuck them to your gun they are still not a scope, just a light amplification device with no means to aim or adjust like a scope.

Now the law, Commissioner's guidelines, etc. make no mention of crosshairs, but for the purpose of this point i'll use it. Those units would not be a scope because they have no way to be used as an aiming device like a scope.

The law, as i've said throughout this thread and the years on similar threads, says only scopes (telescopic sight is the actual term) are classed as firearms in themselves.

The one you linked to above, the Pard, is marked as binoculars. So its designed as a hand held unit but has the option of being firearm mounted. This means that as a handheld unit it requires no authorisation and when its mounted to a firearm only then does it require the authorisation, but neither are scopes which means the point I initially made about scopes (and only scopes) being firearms and hence requiring a license does not apply.

To summarize there are three categories:

1. Hand held, not mounted to firearm - No license, no authorisation needed.
2. Hand held, mounted - Authorisation required
3. Dedicated scope - Requires license regardless of whether its mounted to a firearm or not as the legislation says its a firearm subject to the same application process and fee as a firearm.

You seem to be arguing that those in cateogories 1 and 2 above require either no authorisation or just authorisation and i'm not disagreeing with you on that, and haven't since the thread started.

The ones in category 3 are the ones you're getting tripped up on. These are licensable and require a license regardless of their use (hand held/firearm mounted). That is the one I have only ever referred to as per my post #7.

Grizzly 45

Forgot one other category...Head mounted..No authorization required.

Cass

Foot mounted, waist mounted, rearview, stick, etc. Once its not mounted to a gun the list is, possibly, endless. Think i'll stick to handheld as a generic term for all those.

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

Here is one for you.

I'm looking at the one you linked to just above this post and the ones in the link a few posts up. One thing they have in common, they are designed for handheld use or to be mounted to a firearm (says so in their description). However they are not scopes. I know the ones you linked to in post #15 call them scopes, but actually only one calls itself that, the Yukon and Bushnell call them a Monocular which is actually more apt. The SiOynx ones are the only ones that claim to be firearm mountable, but even if you used duct tape on the others and stuck them to your gun they are still not a scope, just a light amplification device with no means to aim or adjust like a scope.

Now the law, Commissioner's guidelines, etc. make no mention of crosshairs, but for the purpose of this point i'll use it. Those units would not be a scope because they have no way to be used as an aiming device like a scope.

The law, as i've said throughout this thread and the years on similar threads, says only scopes (telescopic sight is the actual term) are classed as firearms in themselves.

The one you linked to above, the Pard, is marked as binoculars. So its designed as a hand held unit but has the option of being firearm mounted. This means that as a handheld unit it requires no authorisation and when its mounted to a firearm only then does it require the authorisation, but neither are scopes which means the point I initially made about scopes (and only scopes) being firearms and hence requiring a license does not apply.

To summarize there are three categories:

1. Hand held, not mounted to firearm - No license, no authorisation needed.
2. Hand held, mounted - Authorisation required
3. Dedicated scope - Requires license regardless of whether its mounted to a firearm or not as the legislation says its a firearm subject to the same application process and fee as a firearm.

You seem to be arguing that those in cateogories 1 and 2 above require either no authorisation or just authorisation and i'm not disagreeing with you on that, and haven't since the thread started.

The ones in category 3 are the ones you're getting tripped up on. These are licensable and require a license regardless of their use (hand held/firearm mounted). That is the one I have only ever referred to as per my post #7.

I thought you said they all need a license. That pard is a scope. It has a crosshair and illuminated reticle. Do I see a bit of back peddling. Getting the fca1 here. Could you help ? Type of firearm? Calibre? Action type

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/fca1-firearm-certificate-application-2020.pdf

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

I thought you said they all need a license.

Not once, hence why i said read what i'm writing carefully. You're not paying attention to what is being written, or not understanding it, but in either case its leading you the wrong conclusion and make statements like the above one. I've never, not once, said all of them need licenses.

That pard is a scope. It has a crosshair and illuminated reticle.

Ah, thought it was only handheld. In that case its a dedicated scope and requires a license.

Do I see a bit of back peddling

No.

Getting the fca1 here. Could you help ? Type of firearm? Calibre? Action type

Never done one, but i'll try.

Fill in:

• Section 1 - All parts, ticking "firearm".
• Section 2 - All parts except perhaps section 2.5
• Section 3 - Section 3.1 fill in make, model, serial number only.
  • Section 3.2 - Ticks sights
  • Section 3.3 - Where you bought it
  • Section 3.4 - leave blank
  • Section 3.5 - Fill it in
• Section 4 - Fill in all relevant sections
• Section 5 - Tick appropriate box in 5.1 and fill in details of land on 5.2
• Sign & date it.

Separate piece of paper include the extra details for the relevant section including the description of the item as a dedicated nightvision scope that under Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act requires licensing due to its status as a firearm.

Send it off and wait.

Cass

Rows Grower wrote: »

Yet there is no such thing as a licence for a Night Vision scope here in Ireland.

Yes there is. I've linked to it above. Its applied for with the firearm or in the case of not applying for it with the firearm must be applied for in a subsequent application and will be subject to the usual €80 license fee.

It has already been explained in layman's language a Night Vision scope needs the authorisation of a Superintendent not a licence.

No it hasn't. You still don't understand the difference between a NV attachment/add-on and a scope.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Getting the fca1 here.

Out of curiosity, have you already got one [NV scope], or are you buying for one for this exercise?

Cass

Obviously not when you don't realise the difference in licensing between a hand held unit capable of being mounted to a firearm and dedicated scope. One requires no authorisation/authorisation the other a license application.

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

Out of curiosity, have you already got one [NV scope], or are you buying for one for this exercise?

Borrowing a night vision from my friend. Going to say I just want it to check livestock

cookimonster

Firstly did I waste my time putting up stuff like this -

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117014652&postcount=4

The section in the above post re legal information is not makey uppy stuff ...this is direct paste and clip from various legitimate sources that are stakeholders in the system.

On a point that is being argued here re - authorised / authorisation, please read the back of your firearms certificate, in fact read the your firearm certificate grant notice and even the accompanying document that holds your firearm certificate.... there is no mention of license.

I qoute (again no makey uppy excrement here).....

'You are hereby authorised'

The point being is that your firaearm is authorised, as is your moderator, in this case with the addition of 's' on your certificate. The break down here is that the proof of authorisation for telescopic sights ( which by now every dog in the street knows, mean NV scopes) is not included on your firearms certificate even though like your firearm or moderator requires authorisation.

So if any of you do want to apply for authorisation for a 'telescopic sight' (Commissioner’s Guidelines 2018) I would like to remind you of the current procedures -

A subsequent application for a silencer or telescopic sight will require the applicant to re-apply on a new application form FCA 1 and will require the full €80 fee if the application is successful.

(Commissioner’s Guidelines 2018)

Re hand held viewers, monocoulrs etc these do not need authorization no matter what the blurb says in the pamphlet or website as they are not telescopic sights by any stretch of the imagination. However something like a Pard nv007 is designed primarily as an add on to exsisting scopes to give a day scope NV capability but has the added advantage of being able to be used as a handheld unit. On the other hand the various NV telescopic sights on sale are primarily manufactured for mounting on firearms. The design, ergonomics and practical application and purpose are for firearms mounting. The use of dedicated NV scopes as hand held scanners is about as practical as gaffa taping a hand held thermal imager to a rifle receiver.

Cass

Rows Grower wrote: »

Please stop, just stop with this ridiculous carry on.

You're the one that started this.

It was you who stated in this thread that you are not familiar with the various models of Thermal/NV/IR scopes.

The brands, makes and models.

You've now gone from stating they all need a licence

Thats a lie.

to some need a licence application.

Just one type.

You're all over the place,

As i said above you seem to not be able to understand the difference between the two types of authorisation/license.

it's hard enough trying to follow stuff that you have edited,

Only editing was to fix improperly quoted posts. Its in the reason for editing tab.

moved around or just completely changed without this carry on.

Are you accusing me of altering posts to suit my view point?

reniwren

Aren't laws different for night vision in UK anyway so Amazon would be free to sell away.

This thread is reminding me of the time I walked into a dealers and the guy at the counter was asking if the scope came pre zeroed

kirving

Just as side note the main discussion, which I hope some might find interesting.

I work in camera manufacturing, and occasionally deal with projects which involve the latest NIR and MWIR (thermal) sensors, so I was keeping half an eye on this topic as I'm involved in very similar stuff.

There are very strict regulations around both the supply of the MWIR sensors within Europe, and also the hardware itself, to ensure that they can only be used with the original screen supplied by the manufacturer, in that the sensors cannot be repurposed by people, organisation or countries without a license for them.

Sending European manufactured sensors to the likes of China I believe can cause big logistical issue. Just thought it was an interesting point.

Paddyviking

Hi All
Has anyone got any documentation/authorisation to have/use for example a Digex or Thermion in this country.
Just asking for a friend

PV

Richard308

cookimonster wrote: »

Firstly did I waste my time putting up stuff like this -

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117014652&postcount=4

The section in the above post re legal information is not makey uppy stuff ...this is direct paste and clip from various legitimate sources that are stakeholders in the system.

On a point that is being argued here re - authorised / authorisation, please read the back of your firearms certificate, in fact read the your firearm certificate grant notice and even the accompanying document that holds your firearm certificate.... there is no mention of license.

I qoute (again no makey uppy excrement here).....

'You are hereby authorised'

The point being is that your firaearm is authorised, as is your moderator, in this case with the addition of 's' on your certificate. The break down here is that the proof of authorisation for telescopic sights ( which by now every dog in the street knows, mean NV scopes) is not included on your firearms certificate even though like your firearm or moderator requires authorisation.

So if any of you do want to apply for authorisation for a 'telescopic sight' (Commissioner’s Guidelines 2018) I would like to remind you of the current procedures -



Re hand held viewers, monocoulrs etc these do not need authorization no matter what the blurb says in the pamphlet or website as they are not telescopic sights by any stretch of the imagination. However something like a Pard nv007 is designed primarily as an add on to exsisting scopes to give a day scope NV capability but has the added advantage of being able to be used as a handheld unit. On the other hand the various NV telescopic sights on sale are primarily manufactured for mounting on firearms. The design, ergonomics and practical application and purpose are for firearms mounting. The use of dedicated NV scopes as hand held scanners is about as practical as gaffa taping a hand held thermal imager to a rifle receiver.

Thank you for clearing that up. About the authorization as opposed to license. Saved me the awkward conversation

cookimonster

Just a quick point here -

The Pard NV008P as seen in the Amazon site page makes scant reference to this being a telescopic sight -
https://go.skimresources.com/?id=61111X1383796&isjs=1&jv=15.1.0-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2058184520%26page%3D4&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2FPard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars%2Fdp%2FB08L85RXVF%2Fref%3Dmp_s_a_1_3%3Fdchild%3D1%26keywords%3Dpard%26qid%3D1620569185%26sr%3D8-3&xguid=01EDV8AQG42QSJR14ZXYBD6ST2&xs=1&xtz=-60&xuuid=b3d02bdf7252d1fc0789ad9708227d82&xjsf=other_click__contextmenu%20%5B0%5D

Yet if you do a google search for the same item nine (9) web sites list it as a scope / rifle scope with only Amazon skirting around it's true design -

'Pard NV008 Digital Infrared Night Vision 200m 1080P Night Vision Infrared IR Camera HD Digital Night Vision Equipment for Hunting Safety'

'It is suitable for hunting and exploring wild, safety and surveillance, camping fun, exploring caves, night navigation, night fishing and boating, observation of wildlife, search and rescue, night watching, bird watching, landscape.'


'You can put it on for target shooting, etc.'

cookimonster

Richard308 wrote: »

Thank you for clearing that up. About the authorization as opposed to license. Saved me the awkward conversation

Don't twist my words - you need authorisation for all three items - rifles, moderators and telescopic sights. If individuals wish to use the words license or authorization, its semantics. In this case they mean one and the same.

'He says you need a license for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need authorisation for a NV rifle scope.

'He says you need authorisation for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need a license for a NV rifle scope.

The above statements are one and the same.

The fact is and I refer back to my post you quoted there are no licenses, there are only firearm certificates. The authorisation is what makes it legal. If your authorisation is revoked or modified that little yellow card means nothing regardless of the expiry date.

cookimonster

Paddyviking wrote: »

Hi All
Has anyone got any documentation/authorisation to have/use for example a Digex or Thermion in this country.
Just asking for a friend

PV

These are dedicated NV scopes and therefore need appropriate authorization / licensing as posted here-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117014652&postcount=4

Also they are illegal in any circumstances for uses in deer stalking

Richard308

cookimonster wrote: »

Don't twist my words - you need authorisation for all three items - rifles, moderators and telescopic sights. If individuals wish to use the words license or authorization, its semantics. In this case they mean one and the same.

'He says you need a license for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need authorisation for a NV rifle scope.

'He says you need authorisation for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need a license for a NV rifle scope.

The above statements are one and the same.

The fact is and I refer back to my post you quoted there are no licenses, there are only firearm certificates. The authorisation is what makes it legal. If your authorisation is revoked or modified that little yellow card means nothing regardless of the expiry date.

Point taken, just someone was claiming owning it without any firearm required a firearms licence and they were firearms as defined.

My point was you needed an authorization to put it on your firearm.

Grizzly 45

reniwren wrote: »

Aren't laws different for night vision in UK anyway so Amazon would be free to sell away.

This thread is reminding me of the time I walked into a dealers and the guy at the counter was asking if the scope came pre zeroed

Yup, they don't make a fuss about them on a firearm for a start. As it is a weapon's sight or capable of being used as one, Amazon.uk or anyone else in the UK for that matter won't export it to the ROI either without Home office clearence.

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Point taken, just someone was claiming owning it without any firearm required a firearms licence and they were firearms as defined.

They are, contrary to your opinion.

Richard308 wrote: »

Indeed, it’s not classed as a firearm, .

You use an FCA1 to apply for permission to own/possess it the same as with a firearm. It has its own box on the FCA1 under section 3.2 as described earlier.

My point was you needed an authorization to put it on your firearm.

Nope, that is what you changed the topic to. A matter of semantics. Your original point was they are not firearms. When i pointed out they were classed as firearms, the same as a gun or suppressor, you claimed the legislation and Commissioner's guidelines were wrong and that is was not a firearm:

Legislation:

Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act

Cass wrote: »

4.—(1) In the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990, “firearm” means—

(g)(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e), and

Commissioner's guidleines:

TELESCOPIC SIGHTS
In the Firearms Act 1925 to 2009, the definition of a firearm additionally includes: 'telescopic sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to befitted to afirearm .... ' Such devices would fall into three broad categories as follows and again an applicant must satisfy the issuing person that he/she has demonstrated 'good reason' to acquire the sight:

• (i) An Active Night Sight - this device emits an invisible light beam which illuminates objects and would assist with identification of objects.
• (ii) A Passive Night Sight - this device does not emit any beam but amplifies any ambient light (from stars or moon) which enables objects to be distinguished and identified.
• (iii) Thermal Image Sight - this device resolves the heat signature given offby warm objects and enables identification of objects.

When an applicant is applying for a firearm certificate or its renewal, the application should include whether or not a silencer or telescopic sights are sought for that particular firearm. A subsequent application for a silencer or telescopic sight will require the applicant to re-apply on a new application form FCA 1 and will require the full €80 fee if the application is successful. So it is vitally important, that where applicable, new applicants or applicants applying to renew their firearm certificates ensure that their application/renewal form includes reference to a silencer/telescopic sight. All firearm certificates which include authorisation to hold a silencer, must include details of the authorisation for the silencer in respect of the firearm by inclusion of the letter'S' on the firearms card.

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yup, they don't make a fuss about them on a firearm for a start. As it is a weapon's sight or capable of being used as one, Amazon.uk or anyone else in the UK for that matter won't export it to the ROI either without Home office clearence.

Amazon clearly do. I’ve put it in the basket to test

cookimonster

Richard308 wrote: »

Point taken, just someone was claiming owning it without any firearm required a firearms licence and they were firearms as defined.

My point was you needed an authorization to put it on your firearm.

I will reinforce the written word -

In the Firearms Act 1925 to 2009, the definition of a firearm additionally includes:

‘telescopic sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm …. ‘

Such devices would fall into three broad categories as follows and again an applicant must satisfy the issuing person that he/she has demonstrated ‘good reason’ to acquire the sight:

I can't make that any clearer then what it says there.

At one stage you could buy a moderator no bother, now you need proof of authorisation. Whether or not you can purchase NV add ons or dedicated sights over the counter or via the internet is irrelevant. The fact is you are required to have authorisation for said item. It is up to the individual to be compliant and as in many sections of the law ignorance is no defense.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Amazon clearly do. I’ve put it in the basket to test

Try completing the sale with an ROI address?:) Don't worry you won't be 800 quid down either...
It even says it in the small print bottom right of the page it's not shippable to outside the UK.

https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news/article/Licensing-and-export-controls-thermal-nightvision/

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Try completing the sale with an ROI address?:) Don't worry you won't be 800 quid down either...
It even says it in the small print bottom right of the page it's not shippable to outside the UK.

https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news/article/Licensing-and-export-controls-thermal-nightvision/

110% you can buy it.
This one. Try yourself
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620586584&sr=8-3

cookimonster

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Try completing the sale with an ROI address?:) Don't worry you won't be 800 quid down either...
It even says it in the small print bottom right of the page it's not shippable to outside the UK.

https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news/article/Licensing-and-export-controls-thermal-nightvision/

Been there, done that (twice, once with another company) and I can absolutely, positively tell you they won't sell you a NV scope. I got as far as paying for one and got a refund.
Tried my Northern Ireland address and that was a no go as well.

Look at their terms and conditions they qoute international treaties (?) and even though I asked them to direct me to the relevant license as quoted by them, for export they weren't interested.

GolfVI

cookimonster wrote: »

Been there, done that (twice, once with another company) and I can absolutely, positively tell you they won't sell you a NV scope. I got as far as paying for one and got a refund.
Tried my Northern Ireland address and that was a no go as well.

Look at there terms and conditions the qoute international treaties (?) and even though I asked them to direct me to the relevant license for export they weren't interested.

Just to add to this,

A couple months ago I contacted opticwarehouse based in the UK in regards to ordering a normal scope and getting it shipped over. I was unsure if I needed an import license or end user agreement.

The company replied stating they had no problem shipping over a normal scope, however they would not ship a NV or Thermal optic without the correct licence.