Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

otmmyboy2 · 05-05-2021 6:55pm

tudderone wrote: »

If banning things works, why don't we ban Heroin, cocaine, cannibis etc, it would solve everything......................................Oh wait..............

Well at the very least we could try and keep those things out of prisons, the easiest place to do so I would think.
As controlled an environment as exists anywhere.

Oh, there are prevalent drug and contraband problems in every prison too?
And criminals still kill people without firearms, weapons, etc?
Ah, that's awkward alright...

Rows Grower · 05-05-2021 7:21pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Well at the very least we could try and keep those things out of prisons, the easiest place to do so I would think.
As controlled an environment as exists anywhere.

Oh, there are prevalent drug and contraband problems in every prison too?
And criminals still kill people without firearms, weapons, etc?
Ah, that's awkward alright...

I'd much rather we try keep them away from my children and their friends.

tudderone · 05-05-2021 7:30pm

The CIA goes woke, the world is doomed !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7yxb-gPPTA

Grizzly 45 · 05-05-2021 8:32pm

Putin and his lads in nr 2 Derschnesky square must be splitting themselves after watching that video.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Grizzly 45 · 05-05-2021 8:46pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Well at the very least we could try and keep those things out of prisons, the easiest place to do so I would think.
As controlled an environment as exists anywhere.

You would think so.... But you have plenty of time doing your time to get very creative....https://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/9-regular-objects-turned-into-insane-prison-weapons/

otmmyboy2 · 05-05-2021 9:38pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd much rather we try keep them away from my children and their friends.

Agree, my point being they cannot keep them out of supposedly the most secure institutions in the world, how do they hope to do so out in the real world where we live?

Rows Grower · 05-05-2021 9:43pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Agree, my point being they cannot keep them out of supposedly the most secure institutions in the world, how do they hope to do so out in the real world where we live?

Taking their guns from them would probably help.

Grizzly 45 · 05-05-2021 9:50pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd much rather we try keep them away from my children and their friends.

Kind of a parent's job to do such?? To educate their kids on the dangers of the world and the people and things that are in it?

Rows Grower · 05-05-2021 9:53pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Kind of a parent's job to do such?? To educate their kids on the dangers of the world and the people and things that are in it?

That's a very simplistic viewpoint but that's only my own opinion.

otmmyboy2 · 05-05-2021 10:09pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Taking their guns from them would probably help.

From criminals, absolutely.
From law abiding people, no.

Richard308 · 05-05-2021 10:11pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

From criminals, absolutely.
From law abiding people, no.

Think we all agreed we want good honest people to keep their guns and those on the other side of the law to lose theirs

tudderone · 05-05-2021 10:16pm

Richard308 wrote: »

Think we all agreed we want good honest people to keep their guns and those on the other side of the law to lose theirs

What, like me losing my legally held pistols and the crowd who did the Regency hotel shootings keeping their ak's ? Just goes to show how well the gunlaws in this dump work.

Timmyr · 05-05-2021 10:27pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Anyone seen this:
New Zealand fires nine border workers who refused Covid vaccine.

So much for that non compulsory vaccine in NZ.

I know there are some here who think that people not getting the vaccine should have consequences for such, I'm wondering in this case are they ok with those consequences including losing their jobs.

It is non compulsory, except for border workers at risk
The last few cases we have had here have been due to unvaccinated border workers

A lot of border staff at the airport are from south Auckland, a demographic classed at high risk and generally anti vaxxers

Richard308 · 05-05-2021 10:45pm

tudderone wrote: »

What, like me losing my legally held pistols and the crowd who did the Regency hotel shootings keeping their ak's ? Just goes to show how well the gunlaws in this dump work.

The regency guns came from over the border. If it’s a dump no ones keeping you here. You can live in any country in Eu visa free. We can have semi auto rifles, alright the pistol thing is a pain in the ass.
In every country there are criminals with guns.

Sharpyshoot · 05-05-2021 10:53pm

Richard308 wrote: »

The regency guns came from over the border. If it’s a dump no ones keeping you here. You can live in any country in Eu visa free. We can have semi auto rifles, alright the pistol thing is a pain in the ass.
In every country there are criminals with guns.

They’ll even allow you bring your current guns with you

Rows Grower · 05-05-2021 10:57pm

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

They’ll even allow you bring your current guns with you

You'd be diligent to consider a move if you were living in a dump.

Mellor · 06-05-2021 12:45am

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

A lot of folks will actually do the transfer through an FFL or ask to see a CCW or similar to verify the buyer is not prohibited, but the onus is on the individual.

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.

Well considering that they are prevented under legislation is actually correct, as you specified, but just when dealing with FFLs as that is federal law.

No it’s not correct as the topic was private sales. Somebody claimed straw sake laws preventing selling to a felon. Simply untrue.

A lot of states have played around with straw purchase laws but they tend to be sufficiently far reaching that if I were to go off and buy a firearm for my wife as a present I am knowingly buying a firearm for someone else, and thus a straw purchaser, regardless of whether it is legal for my wife to own firearms.

The federal law prevents lying on the form. You can buy a firearm as a gift if you simply declare who the user is when purchasing. Not difficult.

I don't think there is a piece of legislation that could be written that would accomplish preventing straw purchases while allowing the legal selling/giving away of firearms privately and not having a registry of firearms & owners which could aid potential future confiscation efforts.

The current law prevents straw purchases from dealers.
The private sales issue is separate. The obvious way to improve that would be to require background checks for private sales. Not difficult, some states currently require it. Not having a background check only facilitates people who shouldn’t have a firearm. As you pointed out, the law abiding owners often voluntary go through a dealer anyway. The ones that can’t pass a check do not.

Uinseann_16 · 06-05-2021 11:44am

From the CDC
In 2019, there were 39,707 gun deaths in the U.S., of which

Approximately three in five were suicides, and 36% were homicides.
3,390 were children and teens (ages 0-19 years).
86% were male.
Massachusetts had the lowest gun death rate, while Alaska had the highest.
In 2019, there were 14,414 firearm homicides.

84% of gun homicide victims were male.
Black males aged 15-34 had a gun homicide rate nearly 17 times higher than white (non Latino) males of the same age group.
37% of gun homicide victims were Black teens and men between the ages of 15-34 – although they make up only 2% of the U.S. population.
Massachusetts had the lowest firearm homicide rate, while Mississippi had the highest.
In 2019, there were 23,941 firearm suicides.

86% of firearm suicide decedents were male.
Firearm suicide risk was highest among non-Latino white men age 75 and older. For men of every other racial and ethinic identity, firearm suicide risk peaked at ages 20-34.
The firearm suicide rate has been growing over the last decade. While 2019 showed a slight reprieve with 491 fewer firearm suicides reported than in 2018, suicide (by any method) continues to be the 10th leading cause of death in the country and firearms continue to account for half of all suicides.
New Jersey had the lowest firearm suicide rate, while Wyoming had the highest.

Colion Noir has done some good breakdown on those numbers
Out of the 40,000 deaths by firearms in 2019 only 14,000 were murders with huge portion of that in the black community from inner city violance
The parts of America with the highest gun crime are those with the strictest legislation with all of these extra laws rules and regulations that some of you are offering up as a fix
Quite simply more laws will not work , it's a constitutional right and just as you shouldn't need a licence to practice free speech you shouldn't need one to own a firearm in a country that considers both things a god given right
The huge problem in America that is that actual issue here is the culture of inner cities the country and the huge levels of poverty in the areas worst affected by violance

The most attacked firearm in the United States is the Ar-15 despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of murders with a firearm were committed with handguns
In 2016 according to the FBI 374 people were killed by rifles in that same year 656 people were beaten to death with hands and feet and 7,105 killed with handguns

There is nothing about gun control with US gun control issues

otmmyboy2 · 06-05-2021 11:46am

Mellor wrote: »

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.

Fair enough, come up with a law that would neither prevent private sales and not create a gun/owner registry while still preventing felons from acquiring firearms?

No it’s not correct as the topic was private sales. Somebody claimed straw sake laws preventing selling to a felon. Simply untrue.

But they do prevent knowingly selling to a felon, as was already covered.

The federal law prevents lying on the form. You can buy a firearm as a gift if you simply declare who the user is when purchasing. Not difficult.

That is absolute rubbish, on the 4473 it specifically prohibits that exact case. Direct quote "Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are
not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you."

There is no section to declare who the end user will be when purchasing, apart from the actual transferee/buyer.

Check yourself:
Section 11

The current law prevents straw purchases from dealers.
The private sales issue is separate. The obvious way to improve that would be to require background checks for private sales. Not difficult, some states currently require it. Not having a background check only facilitates people who shouldn’t have a firearm. As you pointed out, the law abiding owners often voluntary go through a dealer anyway. The ones that can’t pass a check do not.

Really?
This was covered way back in 2015 when the "universal background checks" line was in vogue:
https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/universal-isnt/

Isn't going to make a massive difference to criminals acquiring firearms, so what is the goal then?

Richard308 · 06-05-2021 11:50am

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

From the CDC
In 2019, there were 39,707 gun deaths in the U.S., of which

Approximately three in five were suicides, and 36% were homicides.
3,390 were children and teens (ages 0-19 years).
86% were male.
Massachusetts had the lowest gun death rate, while Alaska had the highest.
In 2019, there were 14,414 firearm homicides.

84% of gun homicide victims were male.
Black males aged 15-34 had a gun homicide rate nearly 17 times higher than white (non Latino) males of the same age group.
37% of gun homicide victims were Black teens and men between the ages of 15-34 – although they make up only 2% of the U.S. population.
Massachusetts had the lowest firearm homicide rate, while Mississippi had the highest.
In 2019, there were 23,941 firearm suicides.

86% of firearm suicide decedents were male.
Firearm suicide risk was highest among non-Latino white men age 75 and older. For men of every other racial and ethinic identity, firearm suicide risk peaked at ages 20-34.
The firearm suicide rate has been growing over the last decade. While 2019 showed a slight reprieve with 491 fewer firearm suicides reported than in 2018, suicide (by any method) continues to be the 10th leading cause of death in the country and firearms continue to account for half of all suicides.
New Jersey had the lowest firearm suicide rate, while Wyoming had the highest.

Colion Noir has done some good breakdown on those numbers
Out of the 40,000 deaths by firearms in 2019 only 14,000 were murders with huge portion of that in the black community from inner city violance
The parts of America with the highest gun crime are those with the strictest legislation with all of these extra laws rules and regulations that some of you are offering up as a fix
Quite simply more laws will not work , it's a constitutional right and just as you shouldn't need a licence to practice free speech you shouldn't need one to own a firearm in a country that considers both things a god given right
The huge problem in America that is that actual issue here is the culture of inner cities the country and the huge levels of poverty in the areas worst affected by violance

The most attacked firearm in the United States is the Ar-15 despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of murders with a firearm were committed with handguns
In 2016 according to the FBI 374 people were killed by rifles in that same year 656 people were beaten to death with hands and feet and 7,105 killed with handguns

There is nothing about gun control with US gun control issues

“Only 14414” gun murders that’s 44 per million.
Ireland had a population of 4.9 million then.
That would be 215 gun murders in the republic
There were 55 murders/manslaughter’s in Ireland in 2019. 11.2 people per million. I’d say few were with guns. If you add other murder methods, knives, bludgeoning, vehicles, poisoning etc. their murder rate would be much much higher.

otmmyboy2 · 06-05-2021 12:16pm

Richard308 wrote: »

“Only 14414” gun murders that’s 44 per million.
Ireland had a population of 4.9 million then.
That would be 215 gun murders in the republic
There were 55 murders/manslaughter’s in Ireland in 2019. I’d say few were with guns

In 2018 the number of murders in the US was 15,498.
That is 5 murders per 100,000

In Ireland in 2019 there was 55 murders, a historic dip.
For 2018 there were 83.
That is 0.87 murders per 100,000

I would say that means the US has a murder problem, not a gun problem.
People are always going to murder, regardless of the item used.

An increase in legally owned firearms does not increase the murder rate.

Thinking about suicides too since some people think that reducing the number of firearms would result in a lower suicide rate.
Similarly the US suicide rate is 13.7 and Ireland's is 10.9.
The UKs by comparison was 7.6. Japan where firearms are all but non existent was 14.3.
Regardless of the item used people are going to commit suicide.

But back to murder the item is not the problem, it is something else(mental health, depression, cultural factors, gangs, the drugs trade, etc) that drives the murder rate.

I think the US certainly needs to look hard at their mental health system and that would be a bigger contributing factor to a decrease in both murder rates and suicide rates.
Couple that with revamping drug laws and decriminalization in a Portugal style and I think the control of the gangs over the illicit trade would significantly drop the murder rate in inner cities.

Both the above would be a lot easier to implement than any firearms legislation and likely more effective at reducing violence overall, not just firearms violence.

So why isn't it being done?
There are big divides over the firearms debate, but is there the same to better mental health supports and decriminalizing the drugs trade? I think also decriminalizing victimless crimes would make an even bigger dent, even if it meant a drop in revenue.

I doubt it will happen of course, because politics. :rolleyes:

Uinseann_16 · 06-05-2021 12:28pm

Richard308 wrote: »

“Only 14414” gun murders that’s 44 per million.
Ireland had a population of 4.9 million then.
That would be 215 gun murders in the republic
There were 55 murders/manslaughter’s in Ireland in 2019. 11.2 people per million. I’d say few were with guns. If you add other murder methods, knives, bludgeoning, vehicles, poisoning etc. their murder rate would be much much higher.

Did you miss the part where I addressed the real issue not guns but poverty
You could take all the guns away with the click of a finger but they would still have those murders but with different methods
America's problems are the poverty stricken inner cities and the gang culture that's developed.

Richard308 · 06-05-2021 12:32pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

In 2018 the number of murders in the US was 15,498.
That is 5 murders per 100,000

In Ireland in 2019 there was 55 murders, a historic dip.
For 2018 there were 83.
That is 0.87 murders per 100,000

I would say that means the US has a murder problem, not a gun problem.
People are always going to murder, regardless of the item used.

An increase in legally owned firearms does not increase the murder rate.

Thinking about suicides too since some people think that reducing the number of firearms would result in a lower suicide rate.
Similarly the US suicide rate is 13.7 and Ireland's is 10.9.
The UKs by comparison was 7.6. Japan where firearms are all but non existent was 14.3.
Regardless of the item used people are going to commit suicide.

But back to murder the item is not the problem, it is something else(mental health, depression, cultural factors, gangs, the drugs trade, etc) that drives the murder rate.

I think the US certainly needs to look hard at their mental health system and that would be a bigger contributing factor to a decrease in both murder rates and suicide rates.
Couple that with revamping drug laws and decriminalization in a Portugal style and I think the control of the gangs over the illicit trade would significantly drop the murder rate in inner cities.

Both the above would be a lot easier to implement than any firearms legislation and likely more effective at reducing violence overall, not just firearms violence.

So why isn't it being done?
There are big divides over the firearms debate, but is there the same to better mental health supports and decriminalizing the drugs trade? I think also decriminalizing victimless crimes would make an even bigger dent, even if it meant a drop in revenue.

I doubt it will happen of course, because politics. :rolleyes:

I believe that is gun murders only. So you’re tipping the scales. He referred to 2019 so I did.

otmmyboy2 · 06-05-2021 12:38pm

Richard308 wrote: »

I believe that is gun murders only. So you’re tipping the scales. He referred to 2019 so I did.

Fair enough, my post was the overall murder rate, regardless of the weapon used.
Same with the suicide rate bit in my post, overall not only firearms.

I don't really care what the item used was, I'd prefer the lowest murder rate possible rather than just one method of murder being reduced.

A la the UK, I don't fancy getting stabbed or acid thrown at me for that matter, even if I could feel morally superior that the attacker didn't have a firearm.
Oh, wait...

Richard308 · 06-05-2021 12:45pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Nope, that was the overall murder rate, regardless of the weapon used.
Same with the suicide rate bit in my post, overall not only firearms.

No it’s gun murders in 2019 I’m referring to. Not 2018.

Richard308 · 06-05-2021 12:47pm

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Did you miss the part where I addressed the real issue not guns but poverty
You could take all the guns away with the click of a finger but they would still have those murders but with different methods
America's problems are the poverty stricken inner cities and the gang culture that's developed.

It’s not just inner city. That’s too simplistic. We all saw the neighbours fighting over the drive way. I agree poverty, culture do play a part.

Grizzly 45 · 06-05-2021 1:11pm

The simple fact is with 3D printing coming more and more online and common. and now the 9th court ruling in favour of Defence unlimited being allowed to post files online as it is considered a 1st amendment right, any sort of registry will now be moot for anyone who really wants a gun.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-29/court-ruling-ghost-gun-plans

otmmyboy2 · 06-05-2021 1:23pm

Richard308 wrote: »

No it’s gun murders in 2019 I’m referring to. Not 2018.

So the overall murder rate doesn't matter, just gun murders?

Rows Grower · 06-05-2021 1:23pm

Mellor wrote: »

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.

No it’s not correct as the topic was private sales. Somebody claimed straw sake laws preventing selling to a felon. Simply untrue.

The federal law prevents lying on the form. You can buy a firearm as a gift if you simply declare who the user is when purchasing. Not difficult.

The current law prevents straw purchases from dealers.
The private sales issue is separate. The obvious way to improve that would be to require background checks for private sales. Not difficult, some states currently require it. Not having a background check only facilitates people who shouldn’t have a firearm. As you pointed out, the law abiding owners often voluntary go through a dealer anyway. The ones that can’t pass a check do not.

You have summed up the crux of the matter in those two sentences.

Lads going to extremes on here even making stuff up to suit their argument does not reflect well on the Irish shooting community, especially considering we have all been warned that Gardaí and Dept. of Justice personal all can and do read this forum.

The lies and never ending pursuit of one-upmanship by some is gone past the funny stage a long time ago.

Richard308 · 06-05-2021 1:27pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

So the overall murder rate doesn't matter, just gun murders?

No I was quoting 2019 as that was what was quoted by the original poster.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

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