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EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

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    #692
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    wadacrack wrote: »
    Seeing an article like this on RTE would give people reassurance that the vaccines are very effective and possibly relief anxiety for some people who are worried about health effects or more lockdowns looming etc

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1385580666629234688

    so what evidence is he seeing? It's easy to see a man winning at cards when he's only showing you half of his hand. based on what studies?


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    #693
    FileNotFound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    arccosh wrote: »
    It was rolled out for the 2009 Swine Flu pandemic (having been tested in various forms from 2006).

    Scientists started looking at the Narcolepsy link early 2010 and had substantial evidence of the link around Autumn 2010.

    Around 31 million people were administered in total (some single some double). Which is going to be minute compared to the various Covid vaccines.

    Wasn't it all linked back to a few specific batches, can't remember the specifics but the strain of virus used in production of these batches had an issue (once again cannot remember the details).


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    #694
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FileNotFound wrote: »
    Wasn't it all linked back to a few specific batches, can't remember the specifics but the strain of virus used in production of these batches had an issue (once again cannot remember the details).

    No, there was a substance in the German batch which Ireland went for If memory serves and it increased the already slight risk ten-15 fold. If we bought the one the Canadians had for example, the risk would be back to miniscule. In any case, once more it came to cost, just like outsourcing the cervical smear tests to the USA.

    this is the scary part...
    When the swine flu vaccine was rushed into service before it had completed its research trials in 2009, the Government offered its manufacturer GSK a full indemnity.

    Full read
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-seems-to-want-to-fight-all-the-narcolepsy-cases-whatever-the-cost-39436158.html

    also
    He said it was their case the situation in relation to the swine flu vaccine was “badly managed “ by Glaxosmithkline and the State agencies in Ireland.

    The truth, counsel said was the Pandemrix vaccine was never tested on teenagers .

    The focus of the hearing is to decide whether the defendants, or any of them, are liable, arising from Ms Bennett having narcolepsy. If liability is established, a separate hearing will be held later to assess damages.

    full read
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-26-sues-state-claiming-she-developed-narcolepsy-from-pandemrix-swine-flu-vaccine-38573945.html

    The number of people presenting with symptoms of narcolepsy from the swine flu vaccine Pandemrix has soared by more than 20pc in the wake of an Irish Independent exposé.

    full read

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/surge-of-20pc-in-narcolepsy-cases-is-linked-to-swine-flu-jab-as-families-seek-damages-37825480.html
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/surge-of-20pc-in-narcolepsy-cases-is-linked-to-swine-flu-jab-as-families-seek-damages-37825480.html[/url


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    #695
    bfa1509
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭bfa1509


    rusty cole wrote: »
    ah sure we can trust the medical device industry to give sound advise. Those vaccines were tested on healthy people who were maybe not on medication, or indeed overweight etc. What we see now is real world data, vaccines on people with underlying conditions, with diabetes, hypertension, huge BMI's and people that are on all manner of other medications that have to be and will be deemed safe for inoculation. Also the time between doses once shifted, will run contrary to original trials, whatever the new data is saying. I wouldn't be a bill gates put a chip in my arm brigade man, but I will wait for a good while to see more real world efficacy and adverse reactions, considering these are early days and we have clots albeit rare cases. how long did it take for the narcolepsy to develop post Pandermix?

    Not going to disagree with you there. I was only referring to the vaccine's ability to prevent transmission, which appears to be very good.

    With regard to the blood clots, they are extremely rare in younger, non-vaccinated populations. I wouldn't exactly call the vaccine-induced blood clots rare - there have been 28 cases from the Astra Zeneca vaccine in Ireland so far. Not half rare enough for me.


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    #696
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    is_that_so wrote: »
    A simpler approach would be to race through vaccinations to that promised 80%.

    this is it. I hate the idea of a vaccine passport, its really creating a 2 tier society. Im a healthy person in their early 30s, I'm bottom of the list for vaccines basically and anything that the government thinks that they can do to stop me going to a restaurant or a pub on day 1 of re-opening is an absolute farce as far as I'm concerned.


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    #697
    FileNotFound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    Have to say all the arguments saying it's creating a 2 tier society have merit. All the same I think (as someone who will be on the end of the vaccination list) that it's really a minor inconvenience given the economic value it could have. Opening up businesses, allowing at least some of us some return to normality.

    Just think of the potential reduction on support payments. Less future tax lost to pay off a the debts.


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    #698
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    FileNotFound wrote: »
    Have to say all the arguments saying it's creating a 2 tier society have merit. All the same I think (as someone who will be on the end of the vaccination list) that it's really a minor inconvenience given the economic value it could have. Opening up businesses, allowing at least some of us some return to normality.

    Just think of the potential reduction on support payments. Less future tax lost to pay off a the debts.
    Given that most people would not qualify for one until well beyond the summer that's a weak economic argument. Hospitality challenges aside we should be able to do almost everything else as we did late last year.


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    #699
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Pubs, restaurants, retail outlets, tourism reliant countries will not be refusing your business without a vaccine passport.

    Last summer the likes of Croatia barely had a first wave and still said **** it, we need the business and let anyone in. Spain were pretty open too.


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    #700
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Pubs, restaurants, retail outlets, tourism reliant countries will not be refusing your business without a vaccine passport.

    Last summer the likes of Croatia barely had a first wave and still said **** it, we need the business and let anyone in. Spain were pretty open too.
    Spain are planning to let people in with a vaccine passport from June.


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    #701
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Pubs, restaurants, retail outlets, tourism reliant countries will not be refusing your business without a vaccine passport.
    I hope this comment wont age like milk.

    But already it's on the cards and people are even ok with it.
    Most Britons support the idea of vaccine passports, according to a new poll - with 62% saying they would be fine with using one to get into a pub or restaurant.

    Ministers are studying their potential use, which could see access to venues granted only if customers have been vaccinated, received negative tests, or developed antibodies through past infection.

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-most-britons-back-vaccine-passports-to-get-into-pub-or-restaurant-says-survey-12261755
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9404351/Is-vaccines-passport-pubs-restaurants-unworkable-British-ticket-Covid-hell.html


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    #702
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    biko wrote: »
    I hope this comment wont age like milk.

    But already it's on the cards and people are even ok with it.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-most-britons-back-vaccine-passports-to-get-into-pub-or-restaurant-says-survey-12261755
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9404351/Is-vaccines-passport-pubs-restaurants-unworkable-British-ticket-Covid-hell.html

    you even quoted the argument against your quote...
    could see access to venues granted only if customers have been vaccinated, received negative tests, or developed antibodies through past infection.


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    #703
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    arccosh wrote: »
    you even quoted the argument against your quote...
    I suppose there is an option to carry your negative test around, but how do I convince the pub bouncer that it's true that I have developed antibodies through past infection?


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    #704
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,485 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    You will never need a vaccine passport to enter a pub in Ireland. By the time they have offered everyone a vaccine, case levels will plummet and it won't even need to be considered. And it won't be palitable at all to have a domestic vaccine passport prior to the point of offering everyone a vaccine.

    Its a complete non-runner


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    #705
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Requiring vaccination to access hospitality services falls flat on its face the moment you realise that there won't be anyone working in the hospitality sector to serve you, unless your pubs/clubs/cinemas/restaurants etc are all staffed by 80 year olds.


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    #706
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    robinph wrote: »
    Requiring vaccination to access hospitality services falls flat on its face the moment you realise that there won't be anyone working in the hospitality sector to serve you, unless your pubs/clubs/cinemas/restaurants etc are all staffed by 80 year olds.
    This whole idea of domestic use of vaccine passports came out of Israel, where a single vaccine vaccine gave them clear timelines. It will probably be a travel requirement for a while anyway.


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    #707
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    biko wrote: »
    I suppose there is an option to carry your negative test around, but how do I convince the pub bouncer that it's true that I have developed antibodies through past infection?

    Antibody test

    AdamD wrote: »
    You will never need a vaccine passport to enter a pub in Ireland. By the time they have offered everyone a vaccine, case levels will plummet and it won't even need to be considered. And it won't be palitable at all to have a domestic vaccine passport prior to the point of offering everyone a vaccine.

    Its a complete non-runner

    This
    is_that_so wrote: »
    This whole idea of domestic use of vaccine passports came out of Israel, where a single vaccine vaccine gave them clear timelines. It will probably be a travel requirement for a while anyway.

    EU rules have already said to travel, proof of vaccine or proof of antibody test, or clear PCR test within 72hours of travel....


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    #708
    nonsheep7
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭nonsheep7


    seamus wrote: »
    This is sure to rile up the usual suspects who think the EU is trying to control their brains.

    Quick answers to obvious questions:

    No, this cannot be used to stop you moving within the EU

    No, this cannot be used to force anyone to get vaccinated

    Well how do you feel about it now then Seamus ??


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    #709
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    nonsheep7 wrote: »
    Well how do you feel about it now then Seamus ??

    I'd say he feels the same, as the EU have already stated

    To travel, proof of vaccine or proof of antibody test, or clear PCR test within 72hours of travel....


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    #710
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    EU will push it onto private companies to enforce contagion containment.
    Those companies will want to standardise and will choose some sort of passport.
    EU will say "it's the private companies that wants passports, not us."


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    #711
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    biko wrote: »
    EU will push it onto private companies to enforce contagion containment.
    Those companies will want to standardise and will choose some sort of passport.
    EU will say "it's the private companies that wants passports, not us."
    That is very doubtful, the French and Germans would never allow it. Treat it as a measure for summer 2021.


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    #712
    FileNotFound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    Don't see the harm in the system, means people who are lower risk can get the economies up and going, help the travel industry recover etc.

    Doubt it will be too long until the EU in general decides vaccination levels are such that normality can resume.


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    #713
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    biko wrote: »
    EU will push it onto private companies to enforce contagion containment.
    Those companies will want to standardise and will choose some sort of passport.
    EU will say "it's the private companies that wants passports, not us."

    Those companies will be working to an EU agreed legislation.... if everyone signs up to it like they said they would, to travel, proof of vaccine or proof of antibody test, or clear PCR test within 72hours of travel....

    A country can choose not sign up to it, and use local measures, which is fine, but if you sign up, EU law overrides ...


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    #714
    Living Off The Splash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Living Off The Splash


    Are you deemed to be fully vaccinated after one AZ jab or must you wait the 12 to 16 weeks before getting your second jab to be fully vaccinated?

    Those getting the J & J one jab vaccine will be considered to be fully vaccinated after one jab.


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    #715
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    AZ, Phfizer, Moderna, are all 2jabs


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    #716
    FileNotFound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    Living Off The Splash wrote: »
    Are you deemed to be fully vaccinated after one AZ jab or must you wait the 12 to 16 weeks before getting your second jab to be fully vaccinated?

    Those getting the J & J one jab vaccine will be considered to be fully vaccinated after one jab.

    Best of my knowledge its after the full treatment - so after the second dose of AZ vaccine you will be officially vaccinated.

    I am just basing that off the fact that on the news etc, they only refer to the people with both doses as vaccinated.


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    #717
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,116 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    FileNotFound wrote: »
    Best of my knowledge its after the full treatment - so after the second dose of AZ vaccine you will be officially vaccinated.

    I am just basing that off the fact that on the news etc, they only refer to the people with both doses as vaccinated.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/three-fully-vaccinated-households-allowed-meet-indoors-without-masks-from-10-may-5423620-Apr2021/



    People who are fully vaccinated will be allowed meet indoors with unvaccinated people from a single household provided they are not at risk of a severe illness, the Taoiseach said.

    The rules come with a number of caveats depending on which vaccine a person has received:

    The ‘vaccine bonus’ from 10 May applies to:
    people who have received AstraZeneca – 4 weeks after dose 1
    people who have received Johnson & Johnson – 2 weeks after dose 1 (only dose)
    people who have received Pfizer – 1 week after dose 2
    people who have received Moderna – 2 weeks after dose 2
    people who have had a confirmed Covid-19 infection in the previous 6 months


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    #718
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    arccosh wrote: »
    I'd say he feels the same, as the EU have already stated

    To travel, proof of vaccine or proof of antibody test, or clear PCR test within 72hours of travel....
    The principle of freedom of movement is one of the most protected in the EU. This is why the issue of MHQ has been so contentious between EU countries.

    And it's why no EU citizen will ever be turned around and sent home for not having a vaccine passport specifically.

    A refusal/deportation of an EU citizen from an EU country must be proportionate; it must have a good reason and have included a full examination of all the facts in that specific case.

    In this case, the existence of alternative proofs (such as a PCR test) that someone does not have Covid, would mean that refusing them entry to the country would be a breach of EU law by default.

    Where someone is unable to provide satisfactory evidence that they do not or cannot have covid, then the member state would be entitled to refuse entry on public health grounds. In our case, the use of MHQ is not a breach of EU law if the traveller has arrived with no PCR test* or proof of vaccination.

    EU law has not changed in this regard. The certificate/passport system is there to make the process easier; so that EU citizens don't need to get PCR tested every time they want to cross a border, and can instead just flash a cheaper and more permanent validation.

    *This is going to be another battleground. In some countries, ticket agents are offering the purchase of a negative PCR test with a plane ticket. Its legality is up in the air, but it means that a common validation process for PCR test results may be needed


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    #719
    TrangiaCoffee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭TrangiaCoffee


    arccosh wrote: »
    I'd say he feels the same, as the EU have already stated

    To travel, proof of vaccine or proof of antibody test, or clear PCR test within 72hours of travel....

    Which grouped together make up the vaccine passport and you can't travel without it, so not sure what your point is.


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    #720
    arccosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭arccosh


    TrangiaCoffee wrote: »
    Which grouped together make up the vaccine passport and you can't travel without it, so not sure what your point is.

    they are three separate options....:rolleyes:


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    #721
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Funnily enough, if you look at the OP, which is what I had originally responded to, there's no mention of Covid at all. Nevertheless, the point still holds.


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