COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

Vicxas · 12-04-2021 4:41pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

If AZ is now off the table then that sets back the vaccination programme massively.

No, it doesnt. It just means that over 60's will get AZ exclusively.

If Pfizer and Moderna drop supply forecasts then we're going to be set back.

Multipass · 12-04-2021 4:43pm

What about the cost, Astrozeneca is far cheaper.
no-ones talking about that. We have unlimited finances now. **** the next generations.

Sofa King Great · 12-04-2021 4:44pm

Vicxas wrote: »

No, it doesnt. It just means that over 60's will get AZ exclusively.

If Pfizer and Moderna drop supply forecasts then we're going to be set back.

Of course it does. They aren't going to hold off on vaccinating certain over 60s until the supply of AZ arrives in May and June and give the currebt supply of pfizer/modern to under 60s.

Don't forget last week the point was made repeatedly that age is the most important factor.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:45pm

Vicxas wrote: »

No, it doesnt. It just means that over 60's will get AZ exclusively.

If Pfizer and Moderna drop supply forecasts then we're going to be set back.

We're not giving AZ to over 70s. That hasn't changed unless you can show otherwise. So the only ones getting AZ will be from 60-69.

ACitizenErased · 12-04-2021 4:46pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

We're not giving AZ to over 70s. That hasn't changed unless you can show otherwise.

Well we will be now

bennyineire · 12-04-2021 4:48pm

Multipass wrote: »

What about the cost, Astrozeneca is far cheaper.
no-ones talking about that. We have unlimited finances now. **** the next generations.

So you reckon go with the cheapest vaccine which will hold up opening the country and costing the state millions in PUP and lost tax revenue ?

I really hope you don't handle finances on work or for your family

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:48pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Well we will be now

Not confirmed yet as far as I know.

Icantthinkof1 · 12-04-2021 4:48pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

We're not giving AZ to over 70s. That hasn't changed unless you can show otherwise.

Surely it would be a silly decision to continue to give the RNA vaccines to the over 70’s and not with AZ considering no one else can take them under 60?
Shouldn’t the RNA vaccines now be given to the 16-59 medically vulnerable?

Elessar · 12-04-2021 4:48pm

Christ almighty this is infuriating.

The Irish authorities are, as usual, on the extreme end of conservatism with everything to do with this pandemic. After the longest and probably most draconian restrictions on planet earth, they are going ultra-cautious with AZ rather than take the bigger picture into account.

You can be damn sure a lot of over 60s will refuse AZ now, and ultimately they will have to be given another one. Rather than a blanket ban for under 60s they should allow under 60s to take it with a note that these clots are a tiny possible side effect. I'm sure many would still take one.

Otherwise this is going to be a complete shambles, again.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:49pm

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

Surely it would be a silly decision to continue to give the RNA vaccines to the over 70’s and not with AZ considering no one else can take them under 60?
Shouldn’t the RNA vaccines should be given to the 16-59 medically vulnerable?

Of course it would be silly but that's what we've been doing all along and wouldn't surprise me if that's what we continue to do.

vienne86 · 12-04-2021 4:50pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Well we will be now

How do you know that? I think a changr there is unlikely and most over 70s have their first dose now.

ACitizenErased · 12-04-2021 4:50pm

vienne86 wrote: »

How do you know that? I think a changr there is unlikely and most over 70s have their first dose now.

Who else are we going to give it to?

muddypuppy · 12-04-2021 4:50pm

Multipass wrote: »

What about the cost, Astrozeneca is far cheaper.
no-ones talking about that. We have unlimited finances now. **** the next generations.

I hope you're sarcastic :pac:
All of them are cheap enough, much cheaper than keeping everything closed. Hell, most of the cost is how much we are paying GPs to vaccinate anyway, the vaccine itself is anything from 1/3 to 1/8 of that.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:51pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Who else are we going to give it to?

60-69. That's all we have to give it to. Most over 70s have had their first mrna vaccine dose already. We're not going to change midstream.

iamwhoiam · 12-04-2021 4:51pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Well we will be now

How do you know this ? 70 -75 are all due theirs this week so I doubt very much anything will change for them

ACitizenErased · 12-04-2021 4:52pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

60-69. That's all we have to give it to. Most over 70s have had their first rmna vaccine dose already. We're not going to change midstream.

Okay so stop giving AZ, just give it to 60-69.
And what will cohort 4 use? They'll have to get mRNA from the over 70s group, obviously. So what's going to fill the over 70 gap?

S_D · 12-04-2021 4:53pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

We're not giving AZ to over 70s. That hasn't changed unless you can show otherwise. So the only ones getting AZ will be from 60-69.

My mam and dad both got AZ Friday. 74 & 78

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:53pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Okay so stop giving AZ, just give it to 60-69.
And what will cohort 4 use? They'll have to get mRNA from the over 70s group, obviously. So what's going to fill the over 70 gap?

Over 70s are higher up the hierarchy in Group 3 so they come before Group 4 unfortunately. There's going to be a delay to Group 4 undoubtedly.

ACitizenErased · 12-04-2021 4:55pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Over 70s are higher up the hierarchy in Group 3 so they come before Group 4 unfortunately. There's going to be a delay to Group 4 undoubtedly.

They're not going to stop a group in progress

12-04-2021 4:55pm

For all the talk of how ridiculously conservative we are in Ireland, we are not alone here. Regulators in most of Western Europe, Australia and Canada have made similar decisions. These are medical experts scrutinising the data, and I trust that they know what they're doing here.

astrofool · 12-04-2021 4:56pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

We're not giving AZ to over 70s. That hasn't changed unless you can show otherwise. So the only ones getting AZ will be from 60-69.

They've been using AZ on > 70's homebound (and as required) for a while now, AZ had been earmarked for cohort 4, but the guidelines changed a few weeks ago. Cohort 4 was going to use the AZ supply as it came in, but that will be updated, clinically, I don't believe there's any reason not to use AZ on > 70's anymore now that the efficacy data has been coming in and looks good.

Sky King · 12-04-2021 4:56pm

Elessar wrote: »

You can be damn sure a lot of over 60s will refuse AZ now, and ultimately they will have to be given another one. Rather than a blanket ban for under 60s they should allow under 60s to take it with a note that these clots are a tiny possible side effect. I'm sure many would still take one.

I totally agree with this. Make them available to anyone who understands statistics.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:57pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

They're not going to stop a group in progress

What are they going to give them? A placebo or leave the in flight Group 3 short?

josip · 12-04-2021 4:57pm

funnydoggy wrote: »

How far could this set us back?

A month at most; July supply of others will be sufficient to replace AZ, plus everyone ends up fully dosed a little sooner.

Lumen · 12-04-2021 4:57pm

Sky King wrote: »

Make them available to anyone who understands statistics.

That's not going to use up much in the way of supply.

ACitizenErased · 12-04-2021 4:57pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

What are they going to give them? A placebo or leave the in flight Group 3 short?

They'll give over 70s AZ and give group 4 RNA, not sure why this is hard to get

dominatinMC · 12-04-2021 4:58pm

Amidst all the doom and gloom, can I just say thank fcuk for Pfizer! Originally thought of as the "high-end" vaccine, it's now turning out to be the workhorse. Here's hoping that they can stick to, or better yet revise upwards, their delivery schedule.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 4:59pm

astrofool wrote: »

They've been using AZ on > 70's homebound (and as required) for a while now, AZ had been earmarked for cohort 4, but the guidelines changed a few weeks ago. Cohort 4 was going to use the AZ supply as it came in, but that will be updated, clinically, I don't believe there's any reason not to use AZ on > 70's anymore now that the efficacy data has been coming in and looks good.

Of course there isn't but it hasn't been widely used on the over 70s at all to date except in narrow circumstances. Another mis-step.

stephenjmcd · 12-04-2021 5:00pm

The way I see it, the only logical thing to do now to keep this on any sort of track would be,

- No more Pfizer or Moderna for over 60s dose 1. Dose 2 only to complete the vaccination

- All over 70s awaiting dose 1 are re routed to MVC for AZ, along with 60-69.

That allows Pfizer & Moderna to be used for dose 2 for those who need it while allowing the rollout to continue down the age groups.

There's pros and cons,
Pros
-Can quickly move through the at risk 16-69
- Probably brings the 50-59 forward & keeps things largely on track

Cons
- longer for those above 60 who get AZ to be fully vaccinated however based on the experience of the UK partial protection should be sufficient for the majority & the 12 week gap shouldn't be an issue.

- Whatever way they go I don't see how the June target is met. Also don't think they'll get near 180k doses this week or next given the logicisatal changes required required any of the options

Oh and if someone u60 wants AZ get them to sign a waiver. I'll sign it tomorrow if they want

lbj666 · 12-04-2021 5:00pm

Russman wrote: »

So, if the figures in post #8606 are correct, there are 483,100 people between 60 & 69 in the country. That would mean 966k doses required.
We've already administered 233k AZ - presumably they're mostly first doses, would there be much overlap with the 966k above ?
We'll still probably need around a million AZ shots in total, give or take.

lbj666 wrote: »

Ya i thinking this may not significantly effect rollout on a broader level than we might think. 233k you say will be getting their 2nd dose in June. 483k 60-69s will get theirs before that, so thats your AZ allocation til end of June used up more or less.

Problem is do you really ring fence AZ and AZ only for one of the last remaining real at risk groups and how much it would prolongue things. NIAC have advised already about oldest first regardless, so they might stay out of the logistical bit of that.

For those who just joined this isnt as big an issue regarding vaccine availability as people might think, we are only due to get 960k in total Astra Zeneca by end of June, off course there are other factors to consider.

hmmm · 12-04-2021 5:00pm

Allow people to sign waivers and get the AZ vaccine if there is unused surplus.

The idea that a "couple of weeks" delay in the vaccination programme is trivial is unreal. A quarter of the country is out of work.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 5:00pm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

They'll give over 70s AZ and give group 4 RNA, not sure why this is hard to get

This has not been announced so is supposition at the moment. How many over 70s have not yet got their first shot?

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 5:02pm

hmmm wrote: »

Allow people to sign waivers and get the AZ vaccine if there is unused surplus.

That's not going to happen.

thecretinhop · 12-04-2021 5:02pm

hmmm wrote: »

Allow people to sign waivers and get the AZ vaccine if there is unused surplus.

The idea that a "couple of weeks" delay in the vaccination programme is trivial is unreal. A quarter of the country is out of work.

100pc right. everyone i know wud take it. i had it do i not get az jab 2 now?

Turtwig · 12-04-2021 5:02pm

hmmm wrote: »

Allow people to sign waivers and get the AZ vaccine if there is unused surplus.

The idea that a "couple of weeks" delay in the vaccination programme is trivial is unreal. A quarter of the country is out of work.

Yep, any delay to the vulnerable cohorts vaccinations, has serious implications for our reopening. However, I don't think the government will delay the reopening schedule. I think we may end up with a smaller fourth wave hitting the hospitals.

Multipass · 12-04-2021 5:04pm

bennyineire wrote: »

So you reckon go with the cheapest vaccine which will hold up opening the country and costing the state millions in PUP and lost tax revenue ?

I really hope you don't handle finances on work or for your family

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. By not using AZ we are delaying opening and costing millions. We’re extending lockdown AND looking for the most expensive vaccines.

Gael23 · 12-04-2021 5:05pm

My mum ,53, got the first dose last week. What happens to that group?

Qrt · 12-04-2021 5:07pm

funnydoggy wrote: »

Afraid to think of a virtual start to my second year of MTU in September.. I can't do another fúcking semester sitting down in my room looking at a screen :pac:

Tell me about it. I’m at breaking point myself. I’ve never met anyone in my course and my sleep schedule is an absolute joke. Not to mention I’ve learnt next to nothing AND I’m behind on everything.

ACitizenErased · 12-04-2021 5:08pm

There's so much confusion now and what ifs that I sit in hope that the CMO and government see the recommendation is unworkable without delays to the program

hmmm · 12-04-2021 5:08pm

Turtwig wrote: »

Yep, any delay to the vulnerable cohorts vaccinations, has serious implications for our reopening. However, I don't think the government will delay the reopening schedule. I think we may end up with a smaller fourth wave hitting the hospitals.

The bigger risk here I think is as was mentioned earlier that the J&J vaccine has the same issue. Suddenly that casual "couple of weeks" becomes "a few months". God help us if any issue arises with the mRNA vaccines.

I remember there was a Lyme disease vaccine a few years ago which was pulled for something similar. A good vaccine, rare side effect, people lost confidence.

In the middle of a pandemic the risk/benefit ratio has to change. I can understand why a regulator wouldn't want to put their neck on the line when they know that if we administer a million vaccinations, 5-10 people might be badly affected, but this is a point where a government should be stepping in to say there is a bigger picture which needs to be considered.

Sky King · 12-04-2021 5:10pm

They shut down the country to protect a minority, surely they should apply the same reasoning to opening it back up again.

rm212 · 12-04-2021 5:12pm

What an absolute shambles by NIAC. Firstly, I personally think the restriction to over 60s is too severe and they should lower that to maybe 40 or 50, but that's not even the point, so let's set aside the point as to whether or not it should be restricted by age group.

If they're going to make the decision to limit the vaccine to certain age groups, it is a disgrace that they left it so long after the EMA released their results. This decision should have been made last week, or use of AZ should have been suspended again while they made their decision on this. Them coming out and saying to continue vaccinating cohort 4 with the vaccine while they deliberate on whether it is safe for almost a week, then turning around and limiting it, is highly unprofessional and will cause stress for those who got it in the last couple of days.

What are they going to do now regarding the second dose for those under 60 who got the first dose already?

dominatinMC · 12-04-2021 5:14pm

hmmm wrote: »

The bigger risk here I think is as was mentioned earlier that the J&J vaccine has the same issue. Suddenly that casual "couple of weeks" becomes "a few months". God help us if any issue arises with the mRNA vaccines.

I remember there was a Lyme disease vaccine a few years ago which was pulled for something similar. A good vaccine, rare side effect, people lost confidence.

In the middle of a pandemic the risk/benefit ratio has to change. I can understand why a regulator wouldn't want to put their neck on the line when they know that if we administer a million vaccinations, 5-10 people might be badly affected, but this is a point where a government should be stepping in to say there is a bigger picture which needs to be considered.

It's shocking really. As a scientist myself, you are always striving for perfection, but such an aspiration needs to be tempered during a pandemic! Even the much-vaunted mRNA vaccines with an incredible 95% efficacy are being criticised by some scientists. Ludicrous stuff, especially when you consider that this disease has only been in circulation for 15 months or so. We really can't afford such luxuries at present. At the end of the day, these are very very rare side effects.

KrustyUCC · 12-04-2021 5:15pm

On RTE radio now if J&J included in same issues as AZ there 35% of all vaccines were expecting over the next few months that can only be used on 60-69 year olds

astrofool · 12-04-2021 5:15pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Of course there isn't but it hasn't been widely used on the over 70s at all to date except in narrow circumstances. Another mis-step.

Not another mis-step, a f*ck up by the trials that meant the efficacy of the vaccine in over 70's was virtually unknown. Good that captain hindsight is here to tell us that the results would have been good.

dominatinMC · 12-04-2021 5:17pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

On RTE radio now if J&J included in same issues as AZ there 35% of all vaccines were expecting over the next few months that can only be used on 60-69 year olds

FFS. MM better go with the begging bowl to Biden and secure some surplus Pfizer or Moderna.

lucernarian · 12-04-2021 5:20pm

1huge1 wrote: »

What on earth has the government got to do with this, this kind of comment makes it very hard to take your posts seriously. You post the same stuff every day.

This comment hasn't aged very well given the news about NIAC's pending decisions

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 5:20pm

astrofool wrote: »

Not another mis-step, a f*ck up by the trials that meant the efficacy of the vaccine in over 70's was virtually unknown. Good that captain hindsight is here to tell us that the results would have been good.

It's been know for some time that AZ if good for over 70s but we have still been not been using it for over 70s except in very narrow circumstances. But shur that's grand I suppose. Good man.

Dressoutlet · 12-04-2021 5:21pm

Multipass wrote: »

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. By not using AZ we are delaying opening and costing millions. We’re extending lockdown AND looking for the most expensive vaccines.

Although I don't agree with the over 60s limit on AZ. I most certainly do not think cost of vaccine should be ahead of people's lives

ebbsy · 12-04-2021 5:32pm

Time for this country to let the UK authorities take over the rollout here.

Pay them to do it.

COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

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