COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

The whole forum has been polluted by blind uninformed rage across every thread at this stage. Most are not even taking a few seconds to think, never mind actually inform themselves

jojofizzio

Dr. Glynn looks like he’d love to swing for the media

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The whole forum has been polluted by blind uninformed rage across every thread at this stage. Most are not even taking a few seconds to think, never mind actually inform themselves

Just wait until we miss the 1.1m doses target to the end of March.

Water John

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Just wait until we miss the 1.1m doses target to the end of March.

The only target we have any control over is, to do as many as we can, with the supplies we get. Hope it's 1.1M, wish it was more.

astrofool

political analyst wrote: »

Those doctors who raised the idea that the AZ vaccine could cause cerebral blood-clots need to take a look in the mirror. Are they proud of themselves for needlessly causing anxiety? If they want vaccination to be successful, then they should say nothing.

People either want restrictions to end or they don't.

This is a completely reckless approach to medicine. Follow the data, react to the data, plan using the data. If something looks odd, report it and investigate.

Don't sit on it, that is stupid, to even suggest physicians should sit on data is absurd. Once reported it can be very quickly confirmed if it's expected (nothing happens) or unexpected (pause until more details are figured out).

If they say nothing and it's something the chances of getting to herd immunity (WHICH IS THE WAY OUT OF LOCKDOWNS FOR THE IDIOTS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND) is lessened because people will refuse to take it because other idiots didn't realise that not reporting would turn people away from taking medicine.

Manach

For the housebound awaiting vaccination ( 105-year-old woman waiting three months for Covid-19 vaccine ) I can confirm it is the lack of information from the HSE is one of the most trying aspects. For the HSE to say keep saying "things are going very well" for week on week at press conferences without any communication that addresses basics such as when a vaccination is due is disingenuous at best.

lbj666

Nothings changed, the true success and challenge of the rollout will be weather suppliers are true to their word with volume of jabs come April/May and June and how quick they get into peoples arms , we ve known that since the beginning of the year. Supply was always gonna be bumpy, rows over supply between jurisdictions were enevitable due to early scarcity.
A suspension was not enevitable but always possible due to the volumes of people and outlier patterns of side effects emerging. I couldnt care less about weather they restart AZ jabs this morning tonight or Monday, what's more key is that backlog of 30,000 jabs arent just hanging there and slowly eaten into over the course of a few weeks, but turned around within a week at worst 2. Same applies if we have a suspension in the next few months but with 100-200k of jabs waiting .

rm212

Next time Norway comes crying about some extremely extremely isolated incidents, just like they did with the Pfizer vac too, how about we don’t immediately take that at face value and shut everything down, especially when the EMA say to continue using the vaccine while investigating?

Ironically, the prime minister of Norway is being investigated by the police after having a 60th birthday party with 13 family members, travelling a long distance to a cabin for the party.

JTMan

Merkel is happy for either a pan-European or if not a bi-lateral purchase of Sputnik if the EMA approves it as Bloomberg reports here (paywall). She is also looking at other ways to speed rollout.

Russia’s Sputnik vaccine also is an option if it were to be approved by the European Medicines Agency, Merkel said. While a joint European order from Russia would be preferable, “we would have to go a German way on our own” if necessary, she said.

Good to see the EU looking at other ways to speed up the roll out but unless Sputnik supply comes from outside the EU it is likely to be too late to make much difference.

Harpon

Sconsey wrote: »

Who are 'they'? you make it sound like one group are solely responsible for getting the AZ vaccines going again....there are three layers of beauracreacy that need to review and approve the decision :
-the first group is NEPHET I think (not sure if it is them)
- they then reccommend to the vaccine approval crowd
- they then review and reccommend to the health minister who then tells the HSE to get going again.

Then as others have pointed out new appointements have to be made, new guidance created, etc.

So while it is a fsked-up state of affairs there is a long list of people that have to hand-pass this around befer it can get going. Under normal circumstances this would take weeks not days.

We all knew at 4:00pm yesterday, you sound like you want to have a person blamed when it is the fault of the system and necessary logistics.

They knew for a long time the decision was being made yesterday. They knew there was a 99% probability the decision would be to continue giving the jab. Would it really have killed them to put a plan in place on the assumption they would get the go ahead? Would it not have been sensible to make new appointments with people on the basis that it is dependent on them getting the go ahead? Would it not have been prudent to print the booklets warning about the possible side effect in advance and have them ready? Worst case scenario they waste a small bit of money printing the booklets if the decision was to stop the jab completely.

As for the layers of people the decision had to pass through, again there’s is no reason why they could not of worked together beforehand to ensure this process was expedited. People have had their life’s put on hold for the past year and they are acting like there is no urgency needed.

astrofool

rm212 wrote: »

Next time Norway comes crying about some extremely extremely isolated incidents, just like they did with the Pfizer vac too, how about we don’t immediately take that at face value and shut everything down, especially when the EMA say to continue using the vaccine while investigating?

That time the guidance for the Pfizer vaccine was updated, it didn't cause any pause and improved the safety of the vaccine rollout.

This time it looks like a genuine, easily treatable, issue has been found, that might have caused death if neglected and not investigated.

And AGAIN, because we are supply limited, the pause has not slowed the pace we get out of lockdown.

giveitholly

Was the target to get 1.1m jabs done by the end of March? If so I presume we haven't a hope of getting that done

political analyst

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/there-are-no-spare-vaccines-available-for-ireland-to-lobby-for-1.4506889

Some countries turned down the more expensive Pfizer and Moderna vaccines at that point, when AstraZeneca’s manufacturing shortfall was but a twinkle in Pascal Soriot’s eye. Denmark and Germany were rich, they were far-sighted, and they were lucky. They moved in early and scooped up more before others realised it was a good idea.

Nothing now constrains Taoiseach Micheál Martin from asking Washington or any other capital nicely if they have some going spare. But it would be a long shot and appear a bit desperate. And it’s not an original idea. The EU is already in talks to try to persuade President Joe Biden to relax his country’s vaccine export ban, with an eye to securing Johnson & Johnson supplies.

Vaccines being delivered and administered at different rates; citizens having a preference for one vaccine over another; regulators awaiting more data before approving the use of a vaccine for a certain age group. Entirely normal events that also occurred in Britain but without receiving the same laser-scrutiny have been sighted by the Sauron eye of Fleet Street, which reads each as a fresh crisis for the EU.

National pride was apparently offended by inaccurate remarks by French president Emmanuel Macron about the efficacy of the Oxford-developed vaccine, and the separate reasonable decision of national regulators to initially restrict the vaccine to younger groups pending additional evidence, as they have the world over. (Only a few hundred older people received the vaccine in the Oxford trials, too small a sample to draw conclusions).

Decisions by regulators to now approve the vaccine for over-65s due to additional data were widely reported as a “U-turn” in Britain, as though the regulators had made a mistake or political choice they were now disavowing. (The Express headline was “Take that, Macron! France makes screeching U-turn and finally backs AstraZeneca jab”).

Didn’t Denmark and Austria make a deal with Israel last week? This was not an agreement to get doses: Israel gets vaccines from the EU. They made a vague declaration about co-operating on future vaccine development for the next generation of vaccines.

There is a lesson there for Ireland. There is a months-long gap between securing doses, and doses arriving. Moves to increase Ireland’s immediate vaccine supply now are happening too late.

The clever approach would be to prepare for the challenges of the summer and beyond, when we will have first-generation vaccines to spare, and may be in a fresh race for updated versions that work against new variants.

rm212

My AstraZeneca appointment which was due for Monday and cancelled has been rescheduled for Sunday. Just got a text from my hospital.

Cork2021

rm212 wrote: »

My AstraZeneca appointment which was due for Monday and cancelled has been rescheduled for Sunday. Just got a text from my hospital.

Excellent news!

IRISHSPORTSGUY

https://www.tijd.be/dossier/Europareeks/AstraZeneca-talmt-met-info-over-Halix-fabriek-in-Leiden/10292540?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

A rapid start-up of the Halix factory in Leiden is crucial to boost European production of the AstraZeneca vaccine. Not the European medicines agency EMA but AstraZeneca is on the brakes.

The EMA's reputation has been at stake for the past week. More than half of the EU Member States locked up AstraZeneca's vaccines after multiple cases of extremely rare blood clots in the brain became known. After the announcement by the EMA on Thursday that the vaccine is safe and effective , the vaccinations were resumed. Finland is the only country to extend the pause for additional investigations into two cases.

AstraZeneca will remain in the news for the coming week. EU leaders will meet in Brussels on Thursday and Friday for consultations. On the agenda is the vaccination strategy , but also the corona certificate, which must make travel possible in the Union in the summer. The hottest topic of conversation is how far Europe wants to go to increase production and distribution of AstraZeneca's vaccines.

Export ban
EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen threatens to ban the export of vaccines to the United Kingdom because London itself does not export vaccines to Europe. However, the EU contract with AstraZeneca stipulated that the two UK plants would supply vaccines to the Union.

The Halix factory in Leiden has also operated for the British market until now. AstraZeneca waited a long time to request homologation of the production process from the EMA and is holding on to the brakes. According to the number two of the EMA, the Belgian Noël Wathion, data about the test methods at the site in Leiden is awaiting. Wathion emphasizes in an interview in this newspaper that once those data are available, the homologation can be granted via an accelerated procedure.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0313/1203746-coronavirus-global/

AstraZeneca's new aim of supplying 30 million doses of its Covid-19 vaccine to the EU by the end March hinges on the EU's drug regulator approving supplies from a factory in the Netherlands, an internal document showed.

The Anglo-Swedish drugmaker said yesterday it would try to deliver 30 million doses to the EU by the end of March.

That is down from a contractual obligation of 90 million and a previous pledge made last month to deliver 40 million doses.

The new lower target for March deliveries, which confirmed an earlier report from Reuters, depends on the regulatory approval of a vaccine factory in Leiden run by subcontractor Halix, the internal document dated 10 March showed.

EU leaders have come under fire for rolling out vaccines at a far slower pace than neighbouring Britain due to a longer approval and purchasing process, as well as repeated delays in supplies from AstraZeneca and other drugmakers.

AstraZeneca said in the document seen by Reuters that it is assuming the Halix factory will get the green light on 25 March and has pencilled in deliveries of nearly 10 million doses for the following week.

That Soriot fella of AZ has a lot to answer for. It seems like he was allowing the export of doses to the UK from Halix whilst the UK gave nothing in return because of their 'exclusivity contract'.

Martina1991

Turtwig wrote: »

That is excellent news if true. Wonder what the blood test is and what the turnaround time would be? Some Antibody tests in Ireland can take 6 weeks or longer before the patient gets their result.

I do wonder if the UK will start seeing more of the severe clotting events once they start vaccinating the younger populations?

There are a number of routine coagulation tests that can be performed in hospital laboratories including PT, PTT, D Dimer.

They can help in the diagnosis of blood clots and can be done in less than an hour from one blood sample.

Goldengirl

Martina1991 wrote: »

There are a number of routine coagulation tests that can be performed in hospital laboratories including PT, PTT, D Dimer.

They can help in the diagnosis of blood clots and can be done in less than an hour from one blood sample.

Yes.
However the Norwegians say they have found a specific antibody triggered by the vaccine rarely , which can cause these clotting events ,and if found in those complaining of the specific symptoms of headaches dizziness and blurred vision , they can be given a specific immunoglobulin to counteract it as well as anticoagulant therapy .
Question is, can we test that quickly for an antibody in hospital, do you think , or would they go straight to treatment on suspected cases , based on prothrombin times , and ddimer?
I thought antibody titres would be at least 24 hours in hospital .

Martina1991

Goldengirl wrote: »

Yes.
However the Norwegians say they have found a specific antibody triggered by the vaccine rarely , which can cause these clotting events ,and if found in those complaining of the specific symptoms of headaches dizziness and blurred vision , they can be given a specific immunoglobulin to counteract it as well as anticoagulant therapy .
Question is, can we test that quickly for an antibody in hospital, do you think , or would they go straight to treatment on suspected cases , based on prothrombin times , and ddimer?
I thought antibody titres would be at least 24 hours in hospital .

In that article it didn't mention the name of the antibody.
As these findings have only been discovered recently I dont know if they identified a completely new antibody specific to the vaccine. There wouldn't be a routine assay designed that quick to identify it. I would have assumed they discovered that a known antibody has been found to be elevated in response to he vaccine.

I'd imagine suspected diagnoses would be made on when the person was vaccinated, clinical assessment and use coagulation tests to aid diagnosis.

Firstly assay manufacturer's would have to develop and manufacture the assay e.g. our instrumentation is Roche. We would need Roche to make the assay before validating it and assessing it before using it on real patients. If this is a completely new antibody this would take months to develop and implement.

Antibody testing can be done very quickly if the test is available in house and not sent to a referral lab.

Goldengirl

Martina1991 wrote: »

In that article it didn't mention the name of the antibody.
As these findings have only been discovered recently I dont know if they identified a completely new antibody specific to the vaccine. There wouldn't be a routine assay designed that quick to identify it. I would have assumed they discovered that a known antibody has been found to be elevated in response to he vaccine.

I'd imagine suspected diagnoses would be made on when the person was vaccinated, clinical assessment and use coagulation tests to aid diagnosis.

Firstly assay manufacturer's would have to develop and manufacture the assay e.g. our instrumentation is Roche. We would need Roche to make the assay before validating it and assessing it before using it on real patients. If this is a completely new antibody this would take months to develop and implement.

Antibody testing can be done very quickly if the test is available in house and not sent to a referral lab.

Thanks . The article is behind a paywall so could only read the posters' synapsis but would be very interested as no doubt ICU/ A&E is where we will see cases if any do occur here in Ireland .
I would imagine it would be treatment based on symptoms and usual bloods for any clotting / platelet disorders , and inflammatory markers and treat accordingly. But the synapsis seems to imply prophylaxis .
Need to know more .
Credit due to the Norwegians for their sticking with this to find out more. They will have saved lives of young, otherwise healthy people here and we now know what we should be looking out for .

JTMan

FT reports here (paywall) on how some Republic residents can get jabs in NI.

- Irish people with NHS cards able to get vaccinated in North.
- Official criteria is "must be entitled to receive healthcare in Northern Ireland and be registered with a GP in Northern Ireland" but people are able to book without fully meeting this criteria.
- Able to book by using an old healthcare number from previous residency in the UK.
- Article quotes multiple people in Donegal who have got the vaccine in NI.
- Arlene Foster again called on the UK to give surplus doses to the Republic.

JTMan

Goldengirl wrote: »

Thanks . The article is behind a paywall so could only read the posters' synapsis but would be very interested as no doubt ICU/ A&E is where we will see cases if any do occur here in Ireland .
I would imagine it would be treatment based on symptoms and usual bloods for any clotting / platelet disorders , and inflammatory markers and treat accordingly. But the synapsis seems to imply prophylaxis .
Need to know more .
Credit due to the Norwegians for their sticking with this to find out more. They will have saved lives of young, otherwise healthy people here and we now know what we should be looking out for .

There is a little more here (translation required). Key paragraph below ...

According to Greinacher, the affected patients would develop certain antibodies that bind to a protein in thrombocytes, the red blood platelets. The platelets are actually important for hemostasis in wounds, but can also be responsible for thrombosis. These antibodies could now activate the thromboses without injuring the blood vessels and lead to the problems. It has not yet been fully clarified whether these special antibodies are produced by the vaccination as such, the specific vector in the Astra-Zeneca vaccine, i.e. the packaging, so to speak, or by a subsequent inflammatory reaction. But this mechanism has been found in all blood samples.

Godot.

It seems incredible to me that America can get its J&J doses from Europe but they won't export any AstraZeneca to Europe until at least May. They should be sending 1 back for every they take.

Biden for all his guff about internationalism has been just as much a vaccine nationalist as Trump.

celt262

JTMan wrote: »

FT reports here (paywall) on how some Republic residents can get jabs in NI.

- Irish people with NHS cards able to get vaccinated in North.
- Official criteria is "must be entitled to receive healthcare in Northern Ireland and be registered with a GP in Northern Ireland" but people are able to book without fully meeting this criteria.
- Able to book by using an old healthcare number from previous residency in the UK.
- Article quotes multiple people in Donegal who have got the vaccine in NI.
- Arlene Foster again called on the UK to give surplus doses to the Republic.

My neighbor got his in Enniskillen workers in the North.

timsey tiger

celt262 wrote: »

My neighbor got his in Enniskillen workers in the North.

I wonder how all that will work iro the vaccinee passport? Secondary consideration I guess.

celt262

timsey tiger wrote: »

I wonder how all that will work iro the vaccinee passport? Secondary consideration I guess.

Good question i don't know. He must have got something saying he has got it.

is_that_so

Godot. wrote: »

It seems incredible to me that America can get its J&J doses from Europe but they won't export any AstraZeneca to Europe until at least May. They should be sending 1 back for every they take.

Biden for all his guff about internationalism has been just as much a vaccine nationalist as Trump.

They've hit the 100m he promised and if he were Martin people would be cheering. They are lending 4m, to their neighbours and there is work with APAC partners to get production up there. J&J have US commitments and as the supply chain is global you will find supplies coming from other locations. J&J so far are promising to be able to service both the US & the EU.

Sanjuro

is_that_so wrote: »

They've hit the 100m he promised and if he were Martin people would be cheering. They are lending 4m, to their neighbours and there is work with APAC partners to get production up there. J&J have US commitments and as the supply chain is global you will find supplies coming from other locations. J&J so far are promising to be able to service both the US & the EU.

What exactly is lending a vaccine? How does that work? They give excess vaccines to Canada on the provision of getting vaccines back at a later date? Surely if they are excess, they’re not needed.

is_that_so

Sanjuro wrote: »

What exactly is lending a vaccine? How does that work? They give excess vaccines to Canada on the provision of getting vaccines back at a later date? Surely if they are excess, they’re not needed.

Yeah, that's it. They'll have to return them. AZ supply mess at the heart of this but as it's not approved in the US they are not compromising their own supplies. Chances are the US may just send them on to their poorer neighbours later anyway.

Tippbhoy1

is_that_so wrote: »

They've hit the 100m he promised and if he were Martin people would be cheering. They are lending 4m, to their neighbours and there is work with APAC partners to get production up there. J&J have US commitments and as the supply chain is global you will find supplies coming from other locations. J&J so far are promising to be able to service both the US & the EU.

Talking about global supply chains is all well and good once it goes both ways, but it doesn’t.

What’s yours is mine, and what’s mine is mine. Biden has proven no better than Trump in this regard.