Cork developments

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 11:22am

Mav11 wrote: »

I think that the explanation lies in the question, what will differentiate Cork city then?
I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

Being a different city in a different location with a very different population level and different history, perhaps?

Why are so many Cork people obsessed with Dublin?

Why dose Cork need to differentiate itself from anywhere? It can just be its own place.

Mav11 · 25-03-2021 11:29am

the beer revolu wrote: »

Being a different city in a different location with a very different population level and different history, perhaps?

Why are so many Cork people obsessed with Dublin?

Why dose Cork need to differentiate itself from anywhere? It can just be its own place.

Being its own place, not a smaller version of London, Dublin etc. would be differentiation enough.

I've lived in Dublin now almost as long as I've lived in Cork and TBH I am increasingly seeing very little difference between both city's.

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 11:34am

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Mav11 wrote: »

Being its own place, not a smaller version of London, Dublin etc. would be differentiation enough.

I've lived in Dublin now almost as long as I've lived in Cork and TBH I am increasingly seeing very little difference between both city's.

Well, what would you suggest?
I'm genuinely curious.
How would you stop this from happening?

Mav11 · 25-03-2021 11:42am

the beer revolu wrote: »

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Well, what would you suggest?
I'm genuinely curious.
How would you stop this from happening?

I don't know.

I'm not a city planner or architect. The question was genuinely posed, could a little more imagination have been used or is high rise the only way to go? Or is Cork too small for that height and scale with low rise the way to go?

fonecrusher1 · 25-03-2021 11:43am

Mav11 wrote: »

See post 6990 re "appropriate development".

I wasn't responding to you. So no thanks.

Mav11 · 25-03-2021 11:45am

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I wasn't responding to you. So no thanks.

I was responding to you, but as you wish.

Pablo Escobar · 25-03-2021 11:57am

Mav11 wrote: »

I think that the explanation lies in the question, what will differentiate Cork city then?
I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

The development is a differentiation in itself. If more follow, there's no other city in Ireland like that.

Actually, the Brownfield opportunity that exists in Cork is incredible. Dublin had that chance and decided against it. I think they went the wrong way about it btw.

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 11:59am

Mav11 wrote: »

I don't know.

I'm not a city planner or architect. The question was genuinely posed, could a little more imagination have been used or is high rise the only way to go? Or is Cork too small for that height and scale with low rise the way to go?

Well, if it's a mini Dublin you want, building low rise is the way to go. Suburbs all the way to Mallow and Fermoy.

I agree that the proposed project could be more imaginative but I wouldn't like to see it lower.
I get it, some people don't like high rise buildings but I'd rather see Cork not develop at all rather than develop outwards at a low level like Dublin has.

25-03-2021 12:42pm

Mav11 wrote: »

Cork too small for that height and scale with low rise the way to go?

Urban sprawl, for the win.

Let's be different from Dublin by making the mistakes, of Dublin, from the 80s

Shedite27 · 25-03-2021 12:50pm

To be fair, most cities are versions of other cities, wide streets mixed with narrow streets, lot of churches and a town hall, river flowing through most, a town square, a GPO, a courthouse, a few pedestrian streets. Now they're all adding skyscrapers and more amenities in the suburbs.

There used to be different shops in each, but that's gone years with the chain stores and supermarkets - that's nothing new to this century.

Cities are made by people, not buildings. I miss Football Crazy, Tribes, Sir Henrys. I'm sure the generation before me missed something else, and this generation will miss something in 20 years.

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 1:05pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

Cities are made by people, not buildings. I miss Football Crazy, Tribes, Sir Henrys. I'm sure the generation before me missed something else, and this generation will miss something in 20 years.

You forgot The Liberty!!
Or were you more of a Donkey's Ears type of Henry's punter??

thomil · 25-03-2021 1:21pm

Mav11 wrote: »

Being its own place, not a smaller version of London, Dublin etc. would be differentiation enough.

I've lived in Dublin now almost as long as I've lived in Cork and TBH I am increasingly seeing very little difference between both city's.

Several points to note here. First of all, cities don't, and never have, existed in a vacuum. As such, architectural and urban influences will always flow back and forth between cities. Cork is, and has always been, part of this exchange. A lot of the "classic" Cork side streets are lined with buildings that are just carbon copies of what you'd see in the UK. Others, such as the CIT Crawford College of Arts channel southern European building styles, while the large bank buildings on South Mall and Parnell Place are very clearly designed in the British imperial style that is seen all over the city of London, or in places such as New York. Others meanwhile are so bland that they could literally be anywhere in Central Europe, from Normandy to western Poland or the Czech Republic, the former Sextant building is an example of this. I've seen that specific building style on the outskirts of Hamburg, in Zgorzelec in Poland, Teplice in the Czech Republic, several smaller towns in the Czech Republic as well as Speyer in Germany, to name but a few.

It is actually exceedingly rare for a city to develop a distinctive style on its own. I can think of only two cities of the top of my head that managed it, Bath in the UK with its all-sandstone historic core, and Hamburg with its Kontorhaus district. Both are UNESCO World Heritage sites for that specific reasons. As such, what is happening now with contemporary office and hotel buildings, and will likely follow with apartments, is not at all different from what has been happening for centuries.

I'd go so far as to say that the Customs House Tower is probably the best way for Cork to get unique characteristics, at least in an Irish sense. Dublin has really screwed up by sprawling out all over the countryside with low-rise buildings, like a half-digested Breast-in-a-Bun outside Hillbillys at 1 AM. There isn't really any concentration of high-rises in Ireland and developing one would really set Cork apart. Something similar happened in Frankfurt from the 1960s onwards and by the time I left for Ireland in 2012, the Skyline had become an attraction and point of pride in its own right.

Mav11 wrote: »

Its special to me as it is the place that I, my parents, grandparents etc were born and reared!

I understand that, I really do. I feel the same about Hamburg and Prague, the cities I grew up in. However, while the city may be special to you, just like Hamburg and Prague are to me, this alone does not make a city special on a national or global scale, as much as it may sting. Cities change. They must change or they risk stagnating and decaying, as such, projects like the Customs House Tower are essential to the city's development.

Apogee · 25-03-2021 1:43pm

satanta99 wrote: »

Planning has been submitted for a 194 bed hotel and rooftop restaurant on Camden Quay

Permission and retention permission for the development , conservation, refurbishment and change of use of the Former McKenzies/Circuit Courthouse, Camden Quay, Camden Place and Pine Street, Cork. The proposed development consists of the construction of a 194-no. bedroom hotel consisting of 153 no. hotel rooms and 41 no. long stay suites and all ancillary site development works. The proposed development consists of or comprises the carrying out of works to a Protected Structure. Permission is being sought for internal and external modifications, the refurbishment and change of use of the existing building and the construction of a 2-6 storey over ground floor annex to the rear of the Protected Structure. At ground floor level the proposed development contains a café with mezzanine level, hotel and long stay suites reception areas, gym, meeting rooms, kitchens, storage, staff welfare, servicing and plant areas with hotel accommodation at upper floors. The proposed development includes a covered ground floor service area to the north complete with refuse store, bicycle store, switchroom and standby generator areas. The proposal includes a rooftop restaurant with outdoor terrace, to be accessed via a dedicated entrance from Camdem Place. permission is also sought for all associated site works, including water/wastewater services, landscaping and ancillary signage. The proposed development includes customer entrances from Camden Place and Pine Street, with a service entrance to the north from Pine Street. Retention permission is also sought for the demolition of the buildings to the rear of the Protected Structure.

ePlan - Online Planning Details

The Echo has some CGI renders from the planning application:

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40251086.html

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 1:46pm

Apogee wrote: »

The Echo has some CGI renders from the planning application:

Looks good. That would really brighten up Pine Street which is currently a pretty bleak little street.

Mav11 · 25-03-2021 2:11pm

OK, here's a proposal, that site and area is quite special with big potential. The convergence of the two channels of the river, followed by the Marina presents an opportunity. How about a development like the Victoria and Alfred waterfront in Cape Town here and move the high rises somewhere else, like maybe down to Tivoli docks. Could use the railway line if required for the short commute.

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 2:23pm

Mav11 wrote: »

OK, here's a proposal, that site and area is quite special with big potential. The convergence of the two channels of the river, followed by the Marina presents an opportunity. How about a development like the Victoria and Alfred waterfront in Cape Town here and move the high rises somewhere else, like maybe down to Tivoli docks. Could use the railway line if required for the short commute.

But the Custom House site is really very small and, taking into account the preservation of the vaults, you'd get feckall on the site without building up.

Look, you don't like the idea of a very high building there. That's fine but no matter how you word it, I don't think you are going to bring anyone around to your way of thinking. Some will agree with you, no doubt but I can't see anyone being persuaded from their current view.

snotboogie · 25-03-2021 2:25pm

Mav11 wrote: »

OK, here's a proposal, that site and area is quite special with big potential. The convergence of the two channels of the river, followed by the Marina presents an opportunity. How about a development like the Victoria and Alfred waterfront in Cape Town here and move the high rises somewhere else, like maybe down to Tivoli docks. Could use the railway line if required for the short commute.

I suppose the big difference is that the Victoria and Alfred site is 300 acres whereas the custom house site is 3 acres. To get get commercial investment on the site there will need to be high density.

thomil · 25-03-2021 2:28pm

While I generally agree that most high-rises should be concentrated along the Marina, I think the Customs House site just needs a stand-out development to mark the city end of the docklands and the current tower project provides just that. I'd advise against banishing high-rises out to Tivoli though. Between the current and the planned infrastructure, both the Customs House Site and the Docklands will be close enough to the city centre to not need too much in the way of parking, as you can reach most major locations on foot. By moving out to Tivoli, you lose that advantage.

Don't get me wrong, apart from the Customs House Tower and the Prism, there shouldn't be any more city centre high-rise developments until you get to County Hall/Victoria's Cross, but just simply putting them "half way to Dunkettle" will likely create more problems than it solves.

the beer revolu · 25-03-2021 2:31pm

snotboogie wrote: »

I suppose the big difference is that the Victoria and Alfred site is 300 acres whereas the custom house site is 3 acres. To get get commercial investment on the site there will need to be high density.

Is it really 3 acres?? Doesn't look it.

Also, you can't build on the vaults or on the space occupied by the Custom House itself.

Mav11 · 25-03-2021 2:31pm

the beer revolu wrote: »

But the Custom House site is really very small and, taking into account the preservation of the vaults, you'd get feckall on the site without building up.

Look, you don't like the idea of a very high building there. That's fine but no matter how you word it, I don't think you are going to bring anyone around to your way of thinking. Some will agree with you, no doubt but I can't see anyone being persuaded from their current view.

Think bigger on the site size, both sides of the river!!

It is not that I don't like the idea of high buildings, its that I think we could do better than putting a disproportionate, out of character development here.

Mav11 · 25-03-2021 2:33pm

snotboogie wrote: »

I suppose the big difference is that the Victoria and Alfred site is 300 acres whereas the custom house site is 3 acres. To get get commercial investment on the site there will need to be high density.

Cape town has a population of close to 5m, so again proportionality, it wouldn't have to be 300 acres.

snotboogie · 25-03-2021 2:35pm

thomil wrote: »

While I generally agree that most high-rises should be concentrated along the Marina, I think the Customs House site just needs a stand-out development to mark the city end of the docklands and the current tower project provides just that. I'd advise against banishing high-rises out to Tivoli though. Between the current and the planned infrastructure, both the Customs House Site and the Docklands will be close enough to the city centre to not need too much in the way of parking, as you can reach most major locations on foot. By moving out to Tivoli, you lose that advantage.

Don't get me wrong, apart from the Customs House Tower and the Prism, there shouldn't be any more city centre high-rise developments until you get to County Hall/Victoria's Cross, but just simply putting them "half way to Dunkettle" will likely create more problems than it solves.

I think the Mahers sports site owned by OCP would be another good spot for high rise on the island

snotboogie · 25-03-2021 2:36pm

the beer revolu wrote: »

Is it really 3 acres?? Doesn't look it.

Also, you can't build on the vaults or on the space occupied by the Custom House itself.

Yep https://property.cushmanwakefield.ie/property/25340

Apogee · 25-03-2021 7:56pm

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

Shedite27 · 25-03-2021 9:18pm

Apogee wrote: »

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

At a very basic level, a 140m building should be double the height of a 70m Eleysian

Hibernicis · 25-03-2021 9:36pm

Apogee wrote: »

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

That graphic would suggest that the accuracy of the Examiner's graphics dept's rulers is on a par with the integrity of its journalism.

An 828M tall building should be very substantially more than a little bit taller than a 140M building (almost x6) and the difference between a 67M building and a 71M building should be almost unnoticeable.

Rhys Essien · 25-03-2021 9:43pm

Mav11 wrote: »

Think bigger on the site size, both sides of the river!!

It is not that I don't like the idea of high buildings, its that I think we could do better than putting a disproportionate, out of character development here.

But it’s not going to look that disproportionate when the one a 100 metres away at the other side of the bridge will be 25 storey.

25-03-2021 10:13pm

Mav11 wrote: »

Think bigger on the site size, both sides of the river!!

It is not that I don't like the idea of high buildings, its that I think we could do better than putting a disproportionate, out of character development here.

You're right. Decaying buildings with zero public amenity and use is more the character there.

The entire point of the docklands development is to change the character of the area

Mardyke · 25-03-2021 10:48pm

thomil wrote: »

Well, what makes Cork so special then? As someone who moved here from abroad, and who has had quite a few visitors since then, it's definitely not the cityscape, which is bland, messy, unorganised and run down! It's the people, the pubs, the dining and the surroundings that stick in the mind, not the absolute mess that is the city centre.

In addition, has it ever occurred to you that building up a skyline might give Cork something that is unique in an Irish context? Because Dublin certainly doesn't have a skyline, neither do Limerick or Galway.

This is one of the best posts on here! Bualadh bos...

Mushy · 26-03-2021 12:01am

Apogee wrote: »

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

The Prism building? Ie it the paper thats labelled it wrong or is this also coming under the prism moniker?

Cork developments

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