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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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[Deleted User]

People were free to propose this, they didn't. Because attempting to renovate those buildings for low yield and low density would have never worked.

Your proposal would require knocking the protected buildings

Mav11

Deleted User wrote: »

You are arguing against development. Those buildings have been decaying for years. No one wanted to touch them, at low height.

The ONLY reason this development works is that they're able to repurpose the ground floor public use while doing business above.

What you're proposing would necessitate the protected buildings to be razed to make the area viable at all

In all fairness I’m not against development and this site / area badly needs to be developed. At the risk of repeating myself yet again:

Originally Posted by Mav11 View Post
I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

Then, if you ask the basic question who are we trying to attract to Cork city or what would be better for local business?

The Wild Atlantic Way begins / ends at Kinsale. So what experience is more likely to attract these and other visitors to the city? Is it a 34 storey high rise hotel in the centre of the city or a “Custom House Quarter” developed on the lines of the V&A (much smaller) in Cape town? I know which one would attract me, or those coming from US or other cities. And great they could stay in the 34 storey high rise hotel in Tivoli with an FLT rail line to the city (10 mins journey time?).

Go back to the mid 80’s, big debate on the provision of a downstream crossing. Powers that be at the time wanted a tunnel. Would be the longest tunnel in Ireland they said! Was needed they said! We’ll call it the Jack Lynch tunnel they said. Nothing else (bridges etc) will do they said!

City Architect at the time, Mr Neil Hegarty, proposed a causeway instead of a tunnel, would serve the city much better in the long run. He argued that among other factors it was preferable to a tunnel because:

- It was more cost effective to build

- It would reduce the risk of city flooding in so far as the causeway could be closed when there was a risk that a tidal surge in a S/SE gale would result in the city being flooded.

- The causeway could also be closed to retain a high water level along the Marina which would provide an amenity to the city to allow for water based events and regattas take place.

When the “longest tunnel in Ireland vanity committee” heard this and discovered that they could no longer place Hegarty in the stocks or be publicly flogged for his sacrilege in Daunt Square they issued the following rebuttal:

- Causeway wouldn’t work because traffic would be delayed due to ships passing up and down the river. Who could have imagined that with Ringaskiddy well under way at the time that shipping would move to there in a short period?

- Causeway wouldn’t work because there would not be sufficient flushing of the river due to the causeway locks. Who could have imagined that with the Cork main drainage in planning at the time that said flushing would not be an issue in less than 10 years?

- Can’t remember what, if any argument, they had for the flooding.

Now imagine what the city experience and visitor number numbers would be like if the causeway had gone ahead and the city had the Marina high water amenity, city flooding not as much of an issue, a “Custom House Quarter” on the lines of the V&A and signature high rise down the Tivoli docks. Even with the non-development of the causeway I know which one I think is best for the city but I’m sure that the “highest building in Ireland vanity committee” won’t agree.

Long post I know, thanks for bearing with it.:D

SleetAndSnow

I quite like the design tbh, the "out of place" argument could be used for so many buildings. One albert quay looked "out of place" as an all glass building surrounded by brick and stone buildings on the opposite side of the river, and now isn't. There will be more high rise buildings *if* this gets built and it slowly will no longer look out of place. Imagine New York for example never built their first high rise because "it looks out of place". Everything looks out of place at first, but once more start coming on stream hopefully it will look good!

Regardless I personally don't think it will look out of place even without other high rises, and the renewed and redeveloped decaying buildings will still be the first thing you see as you enter the city as the high rise is behind them. I think its brilliant really.

[Deleted User]

Mav11 wrote: »

Razor sharp post. Glad to see you're keeping up with the conversation and only 1 like?

You are arguing against development. Those buildings have been decaying for years. No one wanted to touch them, at low height.

The ONLY reason this development works is that they're able to repurpose the ground floor public use while doing business above.

What you're proposing would necessitate the protected buildings to be razed to make the area viable at all

Mav11

Deleted User wrote: »

You're right. Decaying buildings with zero public amenity and use is more the character there.

The entire point of the docklands development is to change the character of the area

Mav11 wrote: »

I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

Razor sharp post. Glad to see you're keeping up with the conversation and only 1 like?

who_me

Mushy wrote: »

The Prism building? Ie it the paper thats labelled it wrong or is this also coming under the prism moniker?

The Prism is actually in the picture above (it's the building in front of County Hall) but not labelled nor does it have its height shown.

It's a strange image to display the relative heights...

Mushy

Apogee wrote: »

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

The Prism building? Ie it the paper thats labelled it wrong or is this also coming under the prism moniker?

Mardyke

thomil wrote: »

Well, what makes Cork so special then? As someone who moved here from abroad, and who has had quite a few visitors since then, it's definitely not the cityscape, which is bland, messy, unorganised and run down! It's the people, the pubs, the dining and the surroundings that stick in the mind, not the absolute mess that is the city centre.

In addition, has it ever occurred to you that building up a skyline might give Cork something that is unique in an Irish context? Because Dublin certainly doesn't have a skyline, neither do Limerick or Galway.

This is one of the best posts on here! Bualadh bos...

[Deleted User]

Mav11 wrote: »

Think bigger on the site size, both sides of the river!!

It is not that I don't like the idea of high buildings, its that I think we could do better than putting a disproportionate, out of character development here.

You're right. Decaying buildings with zero public amenity and use is more the character there.

The entire point of the docklands development is to change the character of the area

Rhys Essien

Mav11 wrote: »

Think bigger on the site size, both sides of the river!!

It is not that I don't like the idea of high buildings, its that I think we could do better than putting a disproportionate, out of character development here.

But it’s not going to look that disproportionate when the one a 100 metres away at the other side of the bridge will be 25 storey.

Hibernicis

Apogee wrote: »

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

That graphic would suggest that the accuracy of the Examiner's graphics dept's rulers is on a par with the integrity of its journalism.

An 828M tall building should be very substantially more than a little bit taller than a 140M building (almost x6) and the difference between a 67M building and a 71M building should be almost unnoticeable.

Shedite27

Apogee wrote: »

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

At a very basic level, a 140m building should be double the height of a 70m Eleysian

Apogee

I'm not sure how accurate the rulers are in De Paper's graphics dept...

snotboogie

the beer revolu wrote: »

Is it really 3 acres?? Doesn't look it.

Also, you can't build on the vaults or on the space occupied by the Custom House itself.

Yep https://property.cushmanwakefield.ie/property/25340

snotboogie

thomil wrote: »

While I generally agree that most high-rises should be concentrated along the Marina, I think the Customs House site just needs a stand-out development to mark the city end of the docklands and the current tower project provides just that. I'd advise against banishing high-rises out to Tivoli though. Between the current and the planned infrastructure, both the Customs House Site and the Docklands will be close enough to the city centre to not need too much in the way of parking, as you can reach most major locations on foot. By moving out to Tivoli, you lose that advantage.

Don't get me wrong, apart from the Customs House Tower and the Prism, there shouldn't be any more city centre high-rise developments until you get to County Hall/Victoria's Cross, but just simply putting them "half way to Dunkettle" will likely create more problems than it solves.

I think the Mahers sports site owned by OCP would be another good spot for high rise on the island

Mav11

snotboogie wrote: »

I suppose the big difference is that the Victoria and Alfred site is 300 acres whereas the custom house site is 3 acres. To get get commercial investment on the site there will need to be high density.

Cape town has a population of close to 5m, so again proportionality, it wouldn't have to be 300 acres.

Mav11

the beer revolu wrote: »

But the Custom House site is really very small and, taking into account the preservation of the vaults, you'd get feckall on the site without building up.

Look, you don't like the idea of a very high building there. That's fine but no matter how you word it, I don't think you are going to bring anyone around to your way of thinking. Some will agree with you, no doubt but I can't see anyone being persuaded from their current view.

Think bigger on the site size, both sides of the river!!

It is not that I don't like the idea of high buildings, its that I think we could do better than putting a disproportionate, out of character development here.

the beer revolu

snotboogie wrote: »

I suppose the big difference is that the Victoria and Alfred site is 300 acres whereas the custom house site is 3 acres. To get get commercial investment on the site there will need to be high density.

Is it really 3 acres?? Doesn't look it.

Also, you can't build on the vaults or on the space occupied by the Custom House itself.

thomil

While I generally agree that most high-rises should be concentrated along the Marina, I think the Customs House site just needs a stand-out development to mark the city end of the docklands and the current tower project provides just that. I'd advise against banishing high-rises out to Tivoli though. Between the current and the planned infrastructure, both the Customs House Site and the Docklands will be close enough to the city centre to not need too much in the way of parking, as you can reach most major locations on foot. By moving out to Tivoli, you lose that advantage.

Don't get me wrong, apart from the Customs House Tower and the Prism, there shouldn't be any more city centre high-rise developments until you get to County Hall/Victoria's Cross, but just simply putting them "half way to Dunkettle" will likely create more problems than it solves.

snotboogie

Mav11 wrote: »

OK, here's a proposal, that site and area is quite special with big potential. The convergence of the two channels of the river, followed by the Marina presents an opportunity. How about a development like the Victoria and Alfred waterfront in Cape Town here and move the high rises somewhere else, like maybe down to Tivoli docks. Could use the railway line if required for the short commute.

I suppose the big difference is that the Victoria and Alfred site is 300 acres whereas the custom house site is 3 acres. To get get commercial investment on the site there will need to be high density.

the beer revolu

Mav11 wrote: »

OK, here's a proposal, that site and area is quite special with big potential. The convergence of the two channels of the river, followed by the Marina presents an opportunity. How about a development like the Victoria and Alfred waterfront in Cape Town here and move the high rises somewhere else, like maybe down to Tivoli docks. Could use the railway line if required for the short commute.

But the Custom House site is really very small and, taking into account the preservation of the vaults, you'd get feckall on the site without building up.

Look, you don't like the idea of a very high building there. That's fine but no matter how you word it, I don't think you are going to bring anyone around to your way of thinking. Some will agree with you, no doubt but I can't see anyone being persuaded from their current view.

Mav11

OK, here's a proposal, that site and area is quite special with big potential. The convergence of the two channels of the river, followed by the Marina presents an opportunity. How about a development like the Victoria and Alfred waterfront in Cape Town here and move the high rises somewhere else, like maybe down to Tivoli docks. Could use the railway line if required for the short commute.

the beer revolu

Apogee wrote: »

The Echo has some CGI renders from the planning application:

Looks good. That would really brighten up Pine Street which is currently a pretty bleak little street.

Apogee

satanta99 wrote: »

Planning has been submitted for a 194 bed hotel and rooftop restaurant on Camden Quay

Permission and retention permission for the development , conservation, refurbishment and change of use of the Former McKenzies/Circuit Courthouse, Camden Quay, Camden Place and Pine Street, Cork. The proposed development consists of the construction of a 194-no. bedroom hotel consisting of 153 no. hotel rooms and 41 no. long stay suites and all ancillary site development works. The proposed development consists of or comprises the carrying out of works to a Protected Structure. Permission is being sought for internal and external modifications, the refurbishment and change of use of the existing building and the construction of a 2-6 storey over ground floor annex to the rear of the Protected Structure. At ground floor level the proposed development contains a café with mezzanine level, hotel and long stay suites reception areas, gym, meeting rooms, kitchens, storage, staff welfare, servicing and plant areas with hotel accommodation at upper floors. The proposed development includes a covered ground floor service area to the north complete with refuse store, bicycle store, switchroom and standby generator areas. The proposal includes a rooftop restaurant with outdoor terrace, to be accessed via a dedicated entrance from Camdem Place. permission is also sought for all associated site works, including water/wastewater services, landscaping and ancillary signage. The proposed development includes customer entrances from Camden Place and Pine Street, with a service entrance to the north from Pine Street. Retention permission is also sought for the demolition of the buildings to the rear of the Protected Structure.

ePlan - Online Planning Details

The Echo has some CGI renders from the planning application:

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40251086.html

thomil

Mav11 wrote: »

Being its own place, not a smaller version of London, Dublin etc. would be differentiation enough.

I've lived in Dublin now almost as long as I've lived in Cork and TBH I am increasingly seeing very little difference between both city's.

Several points to note here. First of all, cities don't, and never have, existed in a vacuum. As such, architectural and urban influences will always flow back and forth between cities. Cork is, and has always been, part of this exchange. A lot of the "classic" Cork side streets are lined with buildings that are just carbon copies of what you'd see in the UK. Others, such as the CIT Crawford College of Arts channel southern European building styles, while the large bank buildings on South Mall and Parnell Place are very clearly designed in the British imperial style that is seen all over the city of London, or in places such as New York. Others meanwhile are so bland that they could literally be anywhere in Central Europe, from Normandy to western Poland or the Czech Republic, the former Sextant building is an example of this. I've seen that specific building style on the outskirts of Hamburg, in Zgorzelec in Poland, Teplice in the Czech Republic, several smaller towns in the Czech Republic as well as Speyer in Germany, to name but a few.

It is actually exceedingly rare for a city to develop a distinctive style on its own. I can think of only two cities of the top of my head that managed it, Bath in the UK with its all-sandstone historic core, and Hamburg with its Kontorhaus district. Both are UNESCO World Heritage sites for that specific reasons. As such, what is happening now with contemporary office and hotel buildings, and will likely follow with apartments, is not at all different from what has been happening for centuries.

I'd go so far as to say that the Customs House Tower is probably the best way for Cork to get unique characteristics, at least in an Irish sense. Dublin has really screwed up by sprawling out all over the countryside with low-rise buildings, like a half-digested Breast-in-a-Bun outside Hillbillys at 1 AM. There isn't really any concentration of high-rises in Ireland and developing one would really set Cork apart. Something similar happened in Frankfurt from the 1960s onwards and by the time I left for Ireland in 2012, the Skyline had become an attraction and point of pride in its own right.

Mav11 wrote: »

Its special to me as it is the place that I, my parents, grandparents etc were born and reared!

I understand that, I really do. I feel the same about Hamburg and Prague, the cities I grew up in. However, while the city may be special to you, just like Hamburg and Prague are to me, this alone does not make a city special on a national or global scale, as much as it may sting. Cities change. They must change or they risk stagnating and decaying, as such, projects like the Customs House Tower are essential to the city's development.

the beer revolu

Shedite27 wrote: »

Cities are made by people, not buildings. I miss Football Crazy, Tribes, Sir Henrys. I'm sure the generation before me missed something else, and this generation will miss something in 20 years.

You forgot The Liberty!!
Or were you more of a Donkey's Ears type of Henry's punter??

Shedite27

To be fair, most cities are versions of other cities, wide streets mixed with narrow streets, lot of churches and a town hall, river flowing through most, a town square, a GPO, a courthouse, a few pedestrian streets. Now they're all adding skyscrapers and more amenities in the suburbs.

There used to be different shops in each, but that's gone years with the chain stores and supermarkets - that's nothing new to this century.

Cities are made by people, not buildings. I miss Football Crazy, Tribes, Sir Henrys. I'm sure the generation before me missed something else, and this generation will miss something in 20 years.

[Deleted User]

Mav11 wrote: »

Cork too small for that height and scale with low rise the way to go?

Urban sprawl, for the win.

Let's be different from Dublin by making the mistakes, of Dublin, from the 80s

the beer revolu

Mav11 wrote: »

I don't know.

I'm not a city planner or architect. The question was genuinely posed, could a little more imagination have been used or is high rise the only way to go? Or is Cork too small for that height and scale with low rise the way to go?

Well, if it's a mini Dublin you want, building low rise is the way to go. Suburbs all the way to Mallow and Fermoy.

I agree that the proposed project could be more imaginative but I wouldn't like to see it lower.
I get it, some people don't like high rise buildings but I'd rather see Cork not develop at all rather than develop outwards at a low level like Dublin has.

Pablo Escobar

Mav11 wrote: »

I think that the explanation lies in the question, what will differentiate Cork city then?
I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

The development is a differentiation in itself. If more follow, there's no other city in Ireland like that.

Actually, the Brownfield opportunity that exists in Cork is incredible. Dublin had that chance and decided against it. I think they went the wrong way about it btw.