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Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

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Comments

  • Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Also ,
    I was told by someone that has fitted 100s of charge points to go with a 40amp50A isolator over the 32amp 40Amp.
    He said he's seen them go crispy .

    Edit-I'm brain dead :D


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,182 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I agree. But sadly many on this thread were adamant that it wasn't required. I have always maintained that it is required, and this further vindicates my view.

    It appears to be definitely required now but why did so many electricians for and certify without it?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Gumbo wrote: »
    It appears to be definitely required now but why did so many electricians for and certify without it?

    That small crowd Electric Ireland did a good number without them, it does seem to be one of the more pointless electrical requirements and appears to be a requirement unique to Ireland.
    Does this make the bollard type installations completely unviable now?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,182 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Also ,
    I was told by someone that has fitted 100s of charge points to go with a 40amp isolator over the 32amp.
    He said he's seen them go crispy .

    Please explain?
    The chargepoint manufactures recommend 40a RCBO. Well some of them that I looked at.


  • Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Please explain?
    The chargepoint manufactures recommend 40a RCBO. Well some of them that I looked at.

    I actually meant to write 50a over 40a :confused:
    Thanks
    will edit


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,566 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Also ,
    I was told by someone that has fitted 100s of charge points to go with a 40amp50A isolator over the 32amp 40Amp.
    He said he's seen them go crispy .

    Edit-I'm brain dead :D

    I presume you mean 63A rotary isolator.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Mod Note: Before we go down the rabbit hole again, here's a thread in electrical discussing the isolator requirement https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058057675&page=7


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    I actually meant to write 50a over 40a :confused:
    Thanks
    will edit

    Not calling this person a liar but that is certainly not my experience with them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,566 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Please explain?
    The chargepoint manufactures recommend 40a RCBO. Well some of them that I looked at.
    Many recommend a 40A overcurrent protective device. This won't necessarily be an RCBO. It might be an MCB if there is RCD protection within the unit, or if an RCCB is used for whatever reason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9 asimp11


    In the meter cabinet you put in a 6-8 module IP box with clear lid. This will have a double pole isolater as main shut off, then a 63amp mcb for the existing house and a 40amp RCBO (DC) for the charger. I would always recommend before this is done your electrician first carries out a full test of the existing installation and gives you a Safe Electric type 2 certificate to have your main fuse upgraded to 100 Amp supply by ESB networks. You can now have a smart meter and 25mm tails, this will be doing the job properly. He will make sure your existing electrical system is safe and that your gas, water and most importantly ground spike are connected to earth. As you are basically connecting a 75KW battery into your house!

    Car batteries charge by DC current only, your car will have an inverter built in which allows you to use your home AC supply but the max power going in is restricted to 6/7 KW by your inverter (unless you go to a super charger station which use huge inverters). This means plugging in your car draws a constant 30 amps, so you only have to have on an electric shower and your kettle at the same time to blow your main ESB fuse. They usually blow at a sustained 75amps.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,017 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    asimp11 wrote: »
    In the meter cabinet you put in a 6-8 module IP box with clear lid. This will have a double pole isolater as main shut off, then a 63amp mcb for the existing house and a 40amp RCBO (DC) for the charger. I would always recommend before this is done your electrician first carries out a full test of the existing installation and gives you a Safe Electric type 2 certificate to have your main fuse upgraded to 100 Amp supply by ESB networks. You can now have a smart meter and 25mm tails, this will be doing the job properly. .

    Don't Irish installs have the ESB fuse, and then a House fuse. I've got a 16kva supply, which is a 100 amp fuse, then there is an 80amp MCB protecting the property. So unless something drastically fails, the MCB will trip well before the ESB fuse goes.

    Going on that logic wouldnt there be a 80amp mcb, which then the house has a 63 and the car charger has a 32?40?.
    80amps at 230 is about 18kw.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭17larsson


    Felexicon wrote: »
    New sub board with minimum 80A fuse. 63A for the house and then 32 for the charger.
    Fit load balancing as needed.

    It won't be an 80A unless the tails are increased to 25sq


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,566 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Gumbo wrote: »
    It appears to be definitely required now but why did so many electricians for and certify without it?
    Obviously I can't speak for any third party. However it is clear that they must be fitted, and this isn't a new requirement. An EVSE is not a simple socket-outlet despite what many claim.

    No simple socket-outlet contains control pilots and proximity pilots for example.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,182 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Obviously I can't speak for any third party. However it is clear that they must be fitted, and this isn't a new requirement. An EVSE is not a simple socket-outlet despite what many claim.

    No simple socket-outlet contains control pilots and proximity pilots for example.

    What is a typical isolator that one should have?

    I currently have a 40a RCBO into 6mm Sq Wiring to a commando socket which uses Tesla’s UMC for 32a charging.

    The commando socket can and has been removed before and can easily be replaced with a dedicated EVSE.

    So I take it that the 6mm cable should be cut before the EVSE/Commando and a rotary isolator should be installed along the line?

    Assuming no other house heavy loads, no electric showers etc what else is required?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    17larsson wrote: »
    It won't be an 80A unless the tails are increased to 25sq

    Why are you increasing the tails to 25sq?

    They are still protected by a 63A MCB


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭17larsson


    Felexicon wrote: »
    Why are you increasing the tails to 25sq?

    They are still protected by a 63A MCB

    You said new sub board would have a minimum 80A fuse


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    17larsson wrote: »
    You said new sub board would have a minimum 80A fuse

    Yeah. That then feeds a 63A fuse that the tails to the house fuse board go to. Then there will be a 32A RCBO for the EV charger.

    Not me saying it by the way. It's all listed in the Safe Electric news letter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭17larsson


    Felexicon wrote: »
    Yeah. That then feeds a 63A fuse that the tails to the house fuse board go to. Then there will be a 32A RCBO for the EV charger.

    Not me saying it by the way. It's all listed in the Safe Electric news letter.

    It would have to be a 16kVA ESB supply if the main breaker is 80A. Most existing installations would only have 12kVA.

    If the installation was upgraded from 12kVA to 16kVA the tails to the main board in the meter cabinet would have to be 25sq and the earthing conductor would have to be increased to 16sq also.

    If the supply is left at 12kVA the MCB supplying the sub board inside would have to dropped to 50A which wouldn't be ideal.

    Nice to have the option for installing at the ESB cabinet but not as straightforward an install as most might hope it is


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,182 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    From the March 2021 Newsletter ;
    The installation of Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Points and the specific wiring rules that apply to this work are outlined in part 722 (Supplies for Electric Vehicles) of the wiring rules. This ensures that by law, this work can only be carried out by Registered Electrical Contractors (RECs).

    All electrical work in Domestic Premises and all work contained in Part 7 of the wiring rules is restricted by law to Registered Electrical Contractors. According to the CRU Electrical Criteria Document and also the Safe Electric Rules of Registration, RECs can only certify works which they have carried out themselves.

    It is a clear breach of these rules for RECs to provide certification for EV Chargers installed by non-RECs.

    In order to avail of the SEAI EV Charger grant applicants can provide a Safe Electric completion certificate which of course only be issued by a REC. To avoid confusion in the Industry regarding the requirement to install Local Isolation for Domestic and Similar EV Chargers. Safe Electric have requested that the NSAI at Electrical Technical Committee TC 002 provide clarification on this issue.
    NSAI/ETC/TC 002 has confirmed that an Electrical Vehicle Charger is more than a Socket Outlet and in fact an EV Charger falls under the definition of an appliance in the definition’s section of I.S. 10101 (Page 46).
    According to a number of rules, particularly Rule 555.1 an isolator is required to be installed within 2 meters of an appliance. Safe Electric welcome this clarification, and RECs should note that if EV installations are being inspected and if an isolator is not installed an inspection non-conformance will be issued. This will mean that the REC will be given 10 days to install an isolator and provide a signed non-conformance confirming that the issue has been rectified
    Following representations from ESBN, NSAI/ETC/TC 002 has also agreed that in existing installations, it is now permissible to connect an EV charger at the customers meter cabinet or at the customers Main overcurrent device in a multi-metering arrangement. While the ideal connection point for these chargers will always be the main internal distribution board, this development will provide a solution in situations where it is difficult or impossible to run cables back to the customers distribution board. In situations where this solution is utilised and in order to comply with rule 134.1.7 it is critical to create an awareness that switching off the main isolator at the customers distribution board will not isolate the EV Charger.
    This can be achieved by placing a warning notice in a prominent location on the main distribution board. It is important that all RECs be aware that connections at the meter cabinet are only to be utilised for providing a solution in existing installations and are not to be used in new installations where it will always be possible to run cables to the distribution board. It is also recommended that only EV chargers are connected at meter locations and connections to garden sheds etc. are not to be encouraged. The customer equipment, including any overcurrent devices for the EV charging equipment are to be confined to the contractor area of the bottom right hand corner of the cabinet.

    546794.png

    Easier to just link to the Newsletter - https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/03/MarchNewsletterSafeElecFinal-1.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,321 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    graememk wrote: »
    Don't Irish installs have the ESB fuse, and then a House fuse. I've got a 16kva supply, which is a 100 amp fuse, then there is an 80amp MCB protecting the property. So unless something drastically fails, the MCB will trip well before the ESB fuse goes.

    You may not have a 100A ESB fuse. It's more likely to be an 80A fuse but you might be lucky and they put in an 100A, but not a given.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Am I the only who finds humour in the warning message incorrectly identifying the charge point as a car charger.
    No wonder they think it's an appliance, electrically it's as much of an appliance as those new fangled USB Wall Sockets.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,000 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    17larsson wrote: »
    It would have to be a 16kVA ESB supply if the main breaker is 80A. Most existing installations would only have 12kVA.

    If the installation was upgraded from 12kVA to 16kVA the tails to the main board in the meter cabinet would have to be 25sq and the earthing conductor would have to be increased to 16sq also.

    If the supply is left at 12kVA the MCB supplying the sub board inside would have to dropped to 50A which wouldn't be ideal.

    Nice to have the option for installing at the ESB cabinet but not as straightforward an install as most might hope it is

    I should mention that in my case I've a 16kVA supply. I guess they went for the extra power because I've a heat pump. House was a new build in 2017

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,000 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    KCross wrote: »
    You may not have a 100A ESB fuse. It's more likely to be an 80A fuse but you might be lucky and they put in an 100A, but not a given.

    Also if you blow that fuse, you need to get the ESB out to replace it and they'll probably have some questions about how it got blown in the first place

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,566 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    liamog wrote: »
    electrically it's as much of an appliance as those new fangled USB Wall Sockets.
    Except that's not really true, is it?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Except that's not really true, is it?

    How's it different? A socket with USB ports has a controller for signalling wires to control and negotiate the voltage and current to the device at the other end of the cable. The power is then sent along other wires in the cable.

    A charge point has a controller that sends a +/- 12V signal down signalling and proximity wires to control and negotiate the voltage and current that will be sent to the charger inside the car. The power is then sent along other wires in the cable.

    The only real difference between the two is that signalling happens at 5V for a USB, and 12V on an EVSE. Both systems even use in cable resistors to ensure that the cable is capable of carrying the negotiated current and voltage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 JimmyKane


    -oRnein9- wrote: »

    Im looking to have a zappi v2 installed how much would be reasonable for supply and install to a 5yr old house given that the consumer unit is located in the utility room on the party wall so appox 20m of a run to the esb meter cabinet most likely running the cable externally from the back of the kitchen.

    Thanks in advance.

    I had my Zappi installed this week and connected directly to the meter cabinet.

    My house sounds like a very similar set up to yours. It would have been very awkward to connect the charge point to the fuse box inside my house, and would have involved drilling through a couple of walls and running a lot of cable around the house which I really didn't want to do.
    I got Nigel M Daly LTD (evchargingstations.ie) out based on all the good reviews on this thread. They installed my zappi directly to the meter box. It was an incredibly neat install and I would highly recommend them. The lads arrived out a half hour early and had the whole job done in under 3 hours. Very neat job and professional service. They will cost you more, but you get what you pay for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭Jofspring


    I only had my Zappi installed last week. Frustrating to hear now it can be installed directly to the meter outside. Would have saved a lot of time, drilling through walls and wires running through my house or am I mistaken?

    Has this just been approved? Going by the amount of work the electricians had to do I'm sure they would have preferred this option.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,182 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Jofspring wrote: »
    I only had my Zappi installed last week. Frustrating to hear now it can be installed directly to the meter outside. Would have saved a lot of time, drilling through walls and wires running through my house or am I mistaken?

    Has this just been approved? Going by the amount of work the electricians had to do I'm sure they would have preferred this option.

    Yes it’s a recent clarification from Safe Electric and announced in their March newsletter that’s linked a couple of posts back, post #3487.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,566 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Yes it’s a recent clarification from Safe Electric and announced in their March newsletter that’s linked a couple of posts back, post #3487.
    Which was only sent yesterday by RECI - so it's extremely new.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭Jofspring


    Ah Jesus, what a sickner, for the sake of a week. Just hope the missus doesn't find out.


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