EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 9:31am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

People should still be allowed take 2 Covid tests and isolate in between.

This is not going to start for a few months and by then everyone will be able to get vaccinated.

There is a great deal of bollix about this. Do people really prefer the way we are today?

Varadkar mentioned rapid tests in a communication to the FG parliamentary party and there is a HPHET sub-group tasked with looking into their use. While there is still an issue over accuracy they could provide a far simpler approach.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 9:35am

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yep, about as discriminatory as say requiring people to have a driving license, care insurance etc. you know the kind of stuff that constitution and the EU treaties enable parliaments to legislate for...

Kids can't drive nor get vaccinated nor get vaccine passports. The rest of this suggest a complete ignorance of what EU treaties actually allow and what an EU competency is.

gozunda · 02-03-2021 10:07am

HansKroenke wrote: »

That's a good point. Pregnant women / women who want to get pregnant won't be taking a vaccine anytime soon. Are they going to be told "tough luck"?

Economic and social restrictions disproportionately affect younger people, compared to the actual threat of covid to their health so it would be terribly unfair that those most affected by restrictions are farthest down the queue to receive a vaccine which is required in order to do the normal things like, for example, going abroad for a holiday.

God help us. Absolutely agree. Important things like going on holiday should absolutley get top priority when it comes to vaccination .

All those planning their holidays to Playa del Tonto or wherever - please proceed directly to the top of the queue.

Health care workers/ older people / vulnerable people of all ages - ye can just wait selfish people you!

>sarcasm font< :rolleyes:

02-03-2021 10:14am

Hurrache wrote: »

Can't be too poor if they plan on travelling abroad.

This is the opinion of someone who thinks that "poor" means you have to buy your takeaway coffee in the Spar instead of Starbucks.

I grew up (very) poor. I went on one holiday abroad before I was an adult. My mother scrimped and saved for a year to make it happen, and an additional fee for a medical test would have been a huge imposition.

So yeah, "the poors" can travel abroad on occasion, and yes, any additional fees would be a great hindrance to them.

02-03-2021 10:17am

josip wrote: »

Why wouldn't poor people be able to get vaccinated?

You misunderstand.

Poor people are able to get vaccinated. However, if they choose not to, and choosing not to costs money, they are put at an additional disadvantage. If €60 is your weekly coffee budget, a few tens of euros at holiday time is an additional cost that will be invisible to you. It's a different calculation altogether if €60 is your weekly grocery budget.

pueblo · 02-03-2021 10:33am

The Council of Europe's resolution 2361 titled 'Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations' clauses 7.3.1 and 7.3.2 are relevant here.

"7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;"

https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html

Russman · 02-03-2021 10:58am

pueblo wrote: »

The Council of Europe's resolution 2361 titled 'Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations' clauses 7.3.1 and 7.3.2 are relevant here.

"7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;"

https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html

I think 7.3.2 might turn out to be a pipe dream in reality (maybe not, who knows).
Plenty of countries have vaccine passports for other diseases. The idea that you have to have a vaccine passport to do something, but sure you can do it anyway, seems off the wall kinda stupid to me.
Personally I think if some people are inconvenienced by it, tough. With the caveats that prior infection, a negative test or inability to take a vaccine are exceptions. But someone just deciding they don't want a vaccine and expecting the same access to stuff as everyone else, no, I'm sorry. In the short term anyway. Purely IMO of course.

Charles Babbage · 02-03-2021 12:20pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

It shouldn't be a choice of "well, it's what we have today or this". With over 60s and u60s with chronic conditions vaccinated, deaths and hospitalisations are down 98%. U45s suicide rates are three times higher than deaths from covid.

Introducing a brand new measure to further restrict an important aspect of normal life at this stage is just utterly pointless but quite disturbing that people think it would be acceptable.

It isn't a "brand new measure", it is replacing the need for Covid tests and quarantines. It isn't a "brand new measure", there have been vaccination requirements for travel since the 19th century. It doesn't restrict normal life as responsible people will get vaccinated anyway.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 12:31pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It isn't a "brand new measure", it is replacing the need for Covid tests and quarantines. It isn't a "brand new measure", there have been vaccination requirements for travel since the 19th century. It doesn't restrict normal life as responsible people will get vaccinated anyway.

There are many unknowns with this use of vaccination passports, some countries are really just banking on it to get their tourism back up and running. There are also large holes in the blanket use of such passports and it's very much about summer in 2021 approach.

goingnowhere · 02-03-2021 12:34pm

As I posted yesterday if a reasonable alternative to vaccination is provided, e.g. free walk up PCR testing there is no discrimination.

The proposal is reasonable
1. If vaccinated off you go
2. If you have a recent test off you go
3. If you had a COVID positive test more than X day ago but less than Y days ago (14 days + 6months?)

Once we get to September anyone who wants a vaccine should be able to get one within days

Freedom of movement doesn't apply to holidays, its there to allow you to live or work in a EEA state, nothing in the current restrictions prevents you from doing so, travel for migration purposes is allowed as is legitimate work travel subject to local health controls which apply based on country of origin not nationality

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 12:39pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

As I posted yesterday if a reasonable alternative to vaccination is provided, e.g. free walk up PCR testing there is no discrimination.

The proposal is reasonable
1. If vaccinated off you go
2. If you have a recent test off you go
3. If you had a COVID positive test more than X day ago but less than Y days ago (14 days + 6months?)

Once we get to September anyone who wants a vaccine should be able to get one within days

Freedom of movement doesn't apply to holidays, its there to allow you to live or work in a EEA state, nothing in the current restrictions prevents you from doing so, travel for migration purposes is allowed as is legitimate work travel subject to local health controls which apply based on country of origin not nationality

If these alternatives are available then why do you even need a vaccine passport?

josip · 02-03-2021 12:43pm

is_that_so wrote: »

If these alternatives are available then why do you even need a vaccine passport?

So that we don't continue to pay large amounts of money to PCR companies?

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 12:50pm

josip wrote: »

So that we don't continue to pay large amounts of money to PCR companies?

We'll eventually get to cheap accurate, rapid tests. We'll need them in the toolbox anyway for outbreak management. Such a measure as this is still going to force a lot of unvaccinated people to have to produce tests anyway.

Charles Babbage · 02-03-2021 1:04pm

is_that_so wrote: »

If these alternatives are available then why do you even need a vaccine passport?

You need a vaccine passport to show that you are vaccinated so that you do not have to get a test.

goingnowhere · 02-03-2021 1:06pm

is_that_so wrote: »

If these alternatives are available then why do you even need a vaccine passport?

The EU proposal is not a vaccine passport but a ok to travel permit

You have a choice to demonstrate vaccination, PCR test, or prior infection

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 1:07pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

You need a vaccine passport to show that you are vaccinated so that you do not have to get a test.

Apart from where we are in the vaccine programme there are a lot of people who cannot do that.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 1:08pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The EU proposal is not a vaccine passport but a ok to travel permit

You have a choice to demonstrate vaccination, PCR test, or prior infection

You cannot demonstrate vaccination if you can't get vaccinated.

goingnowhere · 02-03-2021 1:17pm

Then you get a PCR test, for this to be reasonable the PCR test must be free and easily accessible

We are months away from this happening, but given the alternatives this a pragmatic and balanced approach

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 1:26pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Then you get a PCR test, for this to be reasonable the PCR test must be free and easily accessible

We are months away from this happening, but given the alternatives this a pragmatic and balanced approach

I see the whole thing as an effort to save summer tourism, one that forces a whole lot of people to seek alternatives if they want to travel.

goingnowhere · 02-03-2021 1:31pm

The alternative is we are stuck looking out at incessant rain and Dr Doom and co telling us we can't have a pint, while life returns to normal elsewhere.

josip · 02-03-2021 1:33pm

Without vaccine passports, everybody wanting/needing to travel this summer will have to pay for a PCR test.
With vaccine passports, some people will be spared that expense.

I see this as purely a positive and nobody is being forced to do anything more than they would have had to do anyway.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 1:39pm

josip wrote: »

Without vaccine passports, everybody wanting/needing to travel this summer will have to pay for a PCR test.
With vaccine passports, some people will be spared that expense.

I see this as purely a positive and nobody is being forced to do anything more than they would have had to do anyway.

The people who cannot get vaccinated is a very sizeable list, the first group alone is about 25% of our population.

- Children
- Pregnant women
- those with previous allergic responses to vaccinations
- immuno-compromised.

Chris_5339762 · 02-03-2021 1:41pm

Also Tony at all will, in all likelyhood, still insist on no non-essential travel so this'll be a moot point really.

josip · 02-03-2021 1:49pm

is_that_so wrote: »

The people who cannot get vaccinated is a very sizeable list, the first group alone is about 25% of our population.

- Children
- Pregnant women
- those with previous allergic responses to vaccinations
- immuno-compromised.

So because these groups can't get vaccinated, nobody should get a vaccine passport and we all should have to pay the extra charge to the private PCR companies?

Ray Donovan · 02-03-2021 2:04pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Also Tony at all will, in all likelyhood, still insist on no non-essential travel so this'll be a moot point really.

Which is the major problem facing us really for those who would like to travel this Summer.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 2:12pm

josip wrote: »

So because these groups can't get vaccinated, nobody should get a vaccine passport and we all should have to pay the extra charge to the private PCR companies?

Well if you're not in one of those groups off you go and wave your vaccine passport. I'm drawing attention to the very large practical problems with a vaccine passport. It looks like it's an "easy fix" one size fits all approach, when it's clearly not. This is all before you even get into areas of privacy and the discriminatory nature of the tool.

seansouth36 · 02-03-2021 2:29pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Well if you're not in one of those groups off you go and wave your vaccine passport. I'm drawing attention to the very large practical problems with a vaccine passport. It looks like it's an "easy fix" one size fits all approach, when it's clearly not. This is all before you even get into areas of privacy and the discriminatory nature of the tool.

What's the alternative? Let all of those groups travel without a PCR test result and hope for the best? This wouldn't be helping those groups at all, simply increasing the spread of a disease they can't get a vaccine for.

We also already have Yellow Fever certs, so this is not a new concept, and not some entryway into a dystopian nightmare; it just means more people can travel and more people can travel more safely.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 2:38pm

seansouth36 wrote: »

What's the alternative? Let all of those groups travel without a PCR test result and hope for the rest? This wouldn't be helping those groups at all, simply increasing the spread of a disease they can't get a vaccine for.

We also already have Yellow Fever certs, so this is not a new concept, and not some entryway into a dystopian nightmare; it just means more people can travel and more people can travel more safely.

Who said no PCR tests? It's really not all that hard to imagine Daddy, a pregnant Mammy and two sproglets planning to get on the plane to Playa Dublino. Only a vaccinated Daddy automatically goes on that holiday. The others need alternatives but we can do PCRs for everyone right now.

ixoy · 02-03-2021 2:47pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Well if you're not in one of those groups off you go and wave your vaccine passport. I'm drawing attention to the very large practical problems with a vaccine passport. It looks like it's an "easy fix" one size fits all approach, when it's clearly not. This is all before you even get into areas of privacy and the discriminatory nature of the tool.

The vaccine passport could have an exemption section or carry a special exemption waiver. If so, free PCR test. If not, pay for the PCR.

robinph · 02-03-2021 2:54pm

seansouth36 wrote: »

What's the alternative? Let all of those groups travel without a PCR test result and hope for the best? This wouldn't be helping those groups at all, simply increasing the spread of a disease they can't get a vaccine for.

We also already have Yellow Fever certs, so this is not a new concept, and not some entryway into a dystopian nightmare; it just means more people can travel and more people can travel more safely.

You get a yellow fever vaccine because you are travelling to somewhere that has yellow fever and a low rate of vaccination.

If you need a covid vaccine to travel somewhere then you probably shouldn't be travelling there. In most cases people wanting to travel to the rest of Europe a vaccine passport is going to be entirely pointless. It's a waste of effort in implementing, and just discriminates against those who cannot take the vaccines for whatever reasons.

EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

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