EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

biko · 21-05-2020 1:50am #1

This is to be implemented in 2 years time.

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/vaccination/docs/2019-2022_roadmap_en.pdf

Commission proposal for a common vaccination card/passport for EU citizens

https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories/eu-considers-vaccination-passport-for-kids/

The ultimate goal of a vaccination passport would be to ensure that children who move between countries with different immunisation schedules do not miss out on crucial vaccinations. A similar scheme is already in place for pets and has helped boost vaccination rates, according to the European Commission.

Threadbans

tommybrees

seamus · 21-05-2020 10:07am

This is sure to rile up the usual suspects who think the EU is trying to control their brains.

Quick answers to obvious questions:

No, this cannot be used to stop you moving within the EU

No, this cannot be used to force anyone to get vaccinated

ShatterAlan · 21-05-2020 10:15am

seamus wrote: »

This is sure to rile up the usual suspects who think the EU is trying to control their brains.

Quick answers to obvious questions:

No, this cannot be used to stop you moving within the EU

No, this cannot be used to force anyone to get vaccinated

Are you sure about that?

Sure you can't be prevented from just walking across the border from Belgium to Holland but just like liquids, body scans etc I can see people being refused boarding on planes if they don't have the required vaccine passport.

seamus · 21-05-2020 10:47am

I can't see it.

Controls are rarely put in place at the point of departure. If Denmark doesn't want to accept unvaccinated people, it cannot stop them boarding planes, it can only stop them when they land.

hmmm · 21-05-2020 10:49am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Sure you can't be prevented from just walking across the border from Belgium to Holland but just like liquids, body scans etc I can see people being refused boarding on planes if they don't have the required vaccine passport.

Yeah I think that's how it will be used. It mentions children in the document, but it could easily be extended to adults. It'd be a simple way to get tourism and business travel safely restarted. There are precedents - some countries require travelers to have certain vaccinations.

No more foreign trips for anti-vaxers, I could live with that in these extraordinary times.

hmmm · 21-05-2020 10:50am

seamus wrote: »

I can't see it.

Controls are rarely put in place at the point of departure. If Denmark doesn't want to accept unvaccinated people, it cannot stop them boarding planes, it can only stop them when they land.

Denmark will then fine airlines who send them unvaccinated passengers, and it will be checked at the departure gate by the airline. It's how it works with illegal immigrants currently.

ILoveYourVibes · 21-05-2020 11:02am

Good idea. All for it.

biko · 21-05-2020 11:22am

Although seamus is guessing (no source = guessing :P) I am inclined to agree that this probably won't mean restrictions on travel, at least not intentionally.

I think this is EU's "Carte Jaune"

biko · 05-02-2021 6:41pm

Circling back to this 8 months later.

A new proposal could see the European Union roll-out a vaccine passport for people who have been inoculated against the coronavirus.

Denmark, Sweden to issue digital vaccine ‘passports’
The two Nordic countries both said the certificates would be designed to enable citizens to travel aboard, but also hinted they could potentially be used to check whether someone was vaccinated if they were attending something like a sports or cultural event.

"Immunity passports" were a concept floated early on in the pandemic to allow people who were presumed to be immune to COVID-19 to freely circulate in society.
With the advent of a vaccine, the idea has further evolved to encompass immunity through proof of vaccination.

However, the official messaging about the validity of these so-called "digital health passports" - or "vaccine passports" as they are becoming known - is at present a little confusing.
The World Health Organization (WHO) itself appears at odds with its own recommendations.

It's still unclear how this will be implemented but now it's a possibility.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210205-denmark-sweden-to-issue-digital-vaccine-passports
https://www.newstalk.com/news/eu-outlines-plan-for-vaccine-passports-1137809
https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/eu-affairs/149844/eu-considers-covid-19-vaccination-passport-to-travel-ursula-von-der-leyen-commission-germany-kyriakos-mitsotakis/
https://www.euronews.com/travel/2020/12/11/do-we-need-coronavirus-vaccine-passports-to-get-the-world-moving-again-euronews-asks-the-e

is_that_so · 05-02-2021 7:32pm

The current and future variants may put the kybosh on all of this. It is very much a 2020-early 2021 reaction to COVID. The parts that could work are a bit like the solid elements of a sieve! It may well end up a "simple idea" decided by committee with an EU treaty sized tome of 2000 pages of clarifications. Vaccination data will tell us if it's even needed.

Beasty · 05-02-2021 8:25pm

A little ahead of themselves. At this stage all we know is vaccines offer some protection from symptoms. We do not know if they offer immunity from catching Coronavirus, and if someone vaccinated can potentially pass it on to others

richardkeiths · 23-02-2021 11:09am

Surely a great idea to get us safely back to normality

or

Another way for Bill Gates to spy on the rich lives of boards.ie subscribers?

Thoughts?

Atlantic Dawn · 23-02-2021 11:14am

richardkeiths wrote: »

Surely a great idea to get us safely back to normality

or

Another way for Bill Gates to spy on the rich lives of boards.ie subscribers?

Thoughts?

It's only really of use if the country you are travelling to is vaccinated to a level to protect their vulnerable. Those vaccinated can still spread the virus so travel controls more based on destination.

Harry Palmr · 23-02-2021 11:17am

Can these re-reg accounts be immediately checked and dealt with?

VG31 · 23-02-2021 11:19am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's only really of use if the country you are travelling to is vaccinated to a level to protect their vulnerable. Those vaccinated can still spread the virus so travel controls more based on destination.

Evidence is emerging now that the chance of vaccinated people spreading the virus is greatly reduced.

One thing that never seems to be mentioned about vaccination certs/passports is what about people who want to take the vaccine but can't for medical reasons? Is it just tough luck?

richardkeiths · 23-02-2021 11:22am

VG31 wrote: »

Evidence is emerging now that the chance of vaccinated people spreading the virus is greatly reduced.

One thing that never seems to be mentioned about vaccination certs/passports is what about people who want to take the vaccine but can't for medical reasons? Is it just tough luck?

very interesting indeed. Might require a unique classification

Atlantic Dawn · 23-02-2021 11:23am

VG31 wrote: »

One thing that never seems to be mentioned about vaccination certs/passports is what about people who want to take the vaccine but can't for medical reasons? Is it just tough luck?

I suppose the hope is these figures will be incredibly low so will have less impact on society overall. Perhaps a new method of delivering the vaccine will be available down the road to these people.

Beasty · 23-02-2021 2:45pm

Threads merged

MrMusician18 · 01-03-2021 2:08pm

It looks like these vaccine passports are now on the cards, which will allow international travel within the European Union. Mediterranean states which depend a lot on tourism are pushing for it, while other states are saying wait until the data on post vaccine transmissibility is available while the likes of the French government are saying that it would be unfair of one group could travel while the rest of us wait at home.

If the policy was adopted here, we would see the medically vulnerable, health care workers allowed to travel at least initially. Personally, I think creating exceptions for one group before widespread vaccine availability is asking for trouble.

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 2:11pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It looks like these vaccine passports are now on the cards, which will allow international travel within the European Union. Mediterranean states which depend a lot on tourism are pushing for it, while other states are saying wait until the data on post vaccine transmissibility is available while the likes of the French government are saying that it would be unfair of one group could travel while the rest of us wait at home.

If the policy was adopted here, we would see the medically vulnerable, health care workers allowed to travel at least initially. Personally, I think creating exceptions for one group before widespread vaccine availability is asking for trouble.

Agreed. In fact, the whole idea is a bad one and likely doomed to failure. What if the vaccine requires an annual booster, will one be unable to travel while waiting for the booster? Anyway, I cannot see Macron agreeing to it.

jimmycrackcorm · 01-03-2021 2:21pm

Thornysheep wrote:

Agreed. In fact, the whole idea is a bad one and likely doomed to failure. What if the vaccine requires an annual booster, will one be unable to travel while waiting for the booster? Anyway, I cannot see Macron agreeing to it.

Why would it be doomed to failure? Without this, I can't see and possibility of foreign travel resuming for perhaps two years.

People will want to travel.

MrMusician18 · 01-03-2021 2:28pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why would it be doomed to failure? Without this, I can't see and possibility of foreign travel resuming for perhaps two years.

People will want to travel.

If it creates a two tier system it could cause she political issues, especially if it's adopted before everyone has been at least offered a vaccine.

After that you'll then have people complaining that their rights are being infringed for refusing one.

token56 · 01-03-2021 2:29pm

Germany and France seem to have significant problems with anti-vac attitudes at present and it possible there will be a large enough minority of people who will never get vaccinated. I just can't see them agreeing to it knowing the potential backlash from such groups.

seansouth36 · 01-03-2021 2:32pm

Vaccine passports would be a good idea; without them you either just don't allow travel, or treat vaccinated the same as unvaccinated (testing/quarantines etc), which makes no sense. Greece aren't saying that people without vaccines won't be able to travel, just that there will be restrictions (showing up with a test result/random testing at airports etc). Those with 'vaccine passports' will avoid all that - which is a good thing.

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 2:38pm

Mr.S wrote: »

I think yes it should be introduced for the short-term to allow those that have been vaccinated, a bit more freedom.

But on the flip side, rapid testing should become standard enough that it allows who haven't been vaccinated the same level of freedom.

Talk about rubbing salt into the wound.:rolleyes:

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 2:41pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why would it be doomed to failure? Without this, I can't see and possibility of foreign travel resuming for perhaps two years.

People will want to travel.

He's had one dose, she's had two doses, he hasn't had a booster yet, she has. And what if a new variant arrives that is not covered by all vaccines? It has the potential to be a terrible mess, an abysmal failure and a waste of money... which probably makes it a dead cert.

goingnowhere · 01-03-2021 2:48pm

The approach will have to be reasonable and thats the test for any legal challenge is how reasonable the restrictions are

Vaccinated fully (in line with guidelines, no UK rule bending) i.e. at least 7 days post second vaccination or whatever is the EMA approval
OR
PCR test in last 72 hours

To be reasonable all countries would have to offer the PCR test for free and same day, we can do that currently here under the HSE program as they are running at 50% capacity, but they won't allow walk ups or travel testing.

I already have a vaccination passport, dogeared from hundreds of trips. Its yellow and tells the world I'm vaccinated against Yellow fever, diphtheria and some other nasty bugs. This is not new, its well established, its just we live in a part of the world where few if any would have had need of one

ginoginelli · 01-03-2021 2:52pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

He's had one dose, she's had two doses, he hasn't had a booster yet, she has. And what if a new variant arrives that is not covered by all vaccines? It has the potential to be a terrible mess, an abysmal failure and a waste of money... which probably makes it a dead cert.

That can happen if we go looking for problems.

But if we set out a very clear criteria it should work. It will be very similar to the yellow fever cert in s America.

Overall it's a fantastic idea. Once people are vaccinated and not likely to spread either, let them get on with their lives.

LuckyLloyd · 01-03-2021 2:55pm

Vaccine passports are nothing new.

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 2:59pm

ginoginelli wrote: »

That can happen if we go looking for problems.

But if we set out a very clear criteria it should work. It will be very similar to the yellow fever cert in s America.

Overall it's a fantastic idea. Once people are vaccinated and not likely to spread either, let them get on with their lives.

I have had the yellow fever vaccine. It is still valid as there are no new variants that render it invalid.

You don't have to look for the problems, they are right there blocking the way.

01-03-2021 3:00pm

Unless the government are planning to provide the PCR free of charge, I doubt it'll fly. Undue imposition on poor people.

If it gets through that, I imagine our BAME brothers and sisters' vaccine reluctance could cause a ****storm that no European government would want to confront.

is_that_so · 01-03-2021 4:41pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why would it be doomed to failure? Without this, I can't see and possibility of foreign travel resuming for perhaps two years.

People will want to travel.

What do you do about kids? They can't just be let on planes if you're insisting everyone else has one. We also don't know about the transmission issue or if the vaccine has even worked with all passengers.

Van.Bosch · 01-03-2021 4:44pm

is_that_so wrote: »

What do you do about kids? They can't just be let on planes if you're insisting everyone else has one. We also don't know about the transmission issue or if the vaccine has even worked with all passengers.

It’s a key point - transmission. Some studies seem to indicate the vaccines do lower the risk of transmission but do we have a timeframe for when studies will conclude this?

riffmongous · 01-03-2021 4:49pm

There are quite a few issues alright.. quick tests would be a better solution imo. The cost and lost time will just have to accepted if you want to travel

Russman · 01-03-2021 4:50pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

He's had one dose, she's had two doses, he hasn't had a booster yet, she has..

I would have thought in that scenario its fairly simple, its tough sh1t on him, she can go, he can't. Is that not the very idea of what they're for ?
Obviously he can get a test and produce that in lieu.

01-03-2021 4:50pm

The phrase "vaccine passports" should be condemned to the same dung heap as "wet pubs".

Timfy · 01-03-2021 5:02pm

The elephant in the room here is that having a stamp showing that you are fully inoculated only proves that you are mostly protected from contracting covid-19. You can still carry and transmit the disease to anyone else who isn't protected

Van.Bosch · 01-03-2021 5:09pm

Timfy wrote: »

The elephant in the room here is that having a stamp showing that you are fully inoculated only proves that you are mostly protected from contracting covid-19. You can still carry and transmit the disease to anyone else who isn't protected

Maybe - in that case only countries that are pretty much done will be an option. It will be driven by your target destination in a way, if they are vaccinated then they will let you in.

Hurrache · 01-03-2021 5:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless the government are planning to provide the PCR free of charge, I doubt it'll fly. Undue imposition on poor people.

Can't be too poor if they plan on travelling abroad.

is_that_so · 01-03-2021 5:37pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Can't be too poor if they plan on travelling abroad.

Money is not an issue. A lot of people are saving what they can't spend!

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 6:12pm

Russman wrote: »

I would have thought in that scenario its fairly simple, its tough sh1t on him, she can go, he can't. Is that not the very idea of what they're for ?
Obviously he can get a test and produce that in lieu.

So if it's a couple they'll cancel their holiday. How is that going to help the tourism business?

corcaigh07 · 01-03-2021 6:19pm

Timfy wrote: »

The elephant in the room here is that having a stamp showing that you are fully inoculated only proves that you are mostly protected from contracting covid-19. You can still carry and transmit the disease to anyone else who isn't protected

Your last sentence isn't proven at all and all recent signs suggest transmission to be greatly reduced (particularly the mRNA vaccines).

josip · 01-03-2021 6:19pm

token56 wrote: »

Germany and France seem to have significant problems with anti-vac attitudes at present and it possible there will be a large enough minority of people who will never get vaccinated. I just can't see them agreeing to it knowing the potential backlash from such groups.

The antivaxers can get PCR tests for travel, etc and everyone is still happy.

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 6:21pm

josip wrote: »

The antivaxers can get PCR tests for travel, etc and everyone is still happy.

Only if they are free I would imagine.

josip · 01-03-2021 6:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless the government are planning to provide the PCR free of charge, I doubt it'll fly. Undue imposition on poor people.

If it gets through that, I imagine our BAME brothers and sisters' vaccine reluctance could cause a ****storm that no European government would want to confront.

Why wouldn't poor people be able to get vaccinated?

Hurrache · 01-03-2021 6:24pm

It's the test as opposed to the vaccine.
If you don't pay for your test, you don't travel, it's no more complicated than that.

josip · 01-03-2021 6:25pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

Only if they are free I would imagine.

Why should we subsidise antivaxers?

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 6:28pm

josip wrote: »

Why should we subsidise antivaxers?

It's not all about anti-vax.

josip · 01-03-2021 6:32pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

It's not all about anti-vax.

True, PCR tests should be free for people who cannot get a vaccine for medical reasons.

Morries Wigs · 01-03-2021 6:34pm

Timfy wrote: »

The elephant in the room here is that having a stamp showing that you are fully inoculated only proves that you are mostly protected from contracting covid-19. You can still carry and transmit the disease to anyone else who isn't protected

we dont know that

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 6:34pm

josip wrote: »

True, PCR tests should be free for people who cannot get a vaccine for medical reasons.

And children?

And those waiting for a vaccine?

And those waiting for a booster?

I have a feeling that much of the support for a vaccine passport is based purely on animosity.

EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

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