Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

TTLF · 16-02-2021 12:53AM

I'm also starting to wane big time. Just can't feel any motivation to do work, and I just horribly miss my friends.

I know it's been hard on my family too, the only person going outside is my mother to take care of my great uncle who's 93... We're a really lucky family too where my parents can work from home, and my siblings and I are 18 and above, so we can manage ourselves.

I talked to my mom about it, and I am allowed to visit one friend tomorrow to go skateboarding because she knows this has been a really tough time for us. 8 weeks in now and I really feel dead, even with my desensitized view on media, and the lack of clarity to anything, there doesn't feel like there is anymore "We're in this together" mojo energy, it's just all negativity everyday mixed in with winter-esque seasonal "depression."

Summer can't come soon enough, we'll be a year into the lockdown life in under a month....

I wish everyone the best.

khalessi · 16-02-2021 01:38AM

Listening to Dr. Gabriel Scally on Claire Byrne recommending FFP2 masks as variants so infectious.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21909394

He also mentioned that very good evidence in UK that children are getting Covid and 1 in 8 in primary schol children and 1 in 7 in secondary school children getting Long Covid, which he defines as continuous symptoms lasting over 5 weeks just published in UK in last few weeks.

He also recomments improved ventilation in schools before reopening but it looks like at the moment nothing is been done to enhance safety measures before return to school by Dept. Astra Venica being tested for under 18s

combat14 · 16-02-2021 10:04AM

reading the following full indo article about latest covid 19 news its very hard to see how there is any justification to open schools next month .. just way too soon...

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/major-covid-outbreaks-at-two-universities-as-students-flout-rules-40096935.html

combat14 · 16-02-2021 10:07AM

EU agency urges immediate and tough steps to prevent fresh Covid-19 wave

Tough and immediate public health interventions are needed to prevent a fresh wave of Covid-19 deaths caused by variants of the virus that are sweeping the continent, European health authorities have warned

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eu-agency-urges-immediate-and-tough-steps-to-prevent-fresh-covid-19-wave-1.4485835?mode=amp

wonder what tough preventative measures mean ... reopen all the schools....??

downthemiddle · 16-02-2021 10:11AM

Locotastic wrote: »

Pandemics can end through herd immunity, vaccination but also with societal acceptance of the disease and its risks.

This is a remarkable statement. I'm sure you can support this supposition with references to previous pandemics.

khalessi · 16-02-2021 10:11AM

They are also looking at Data coming out of Germany and schools re closing in Denmark. These new variants have them very worried

Sammy2012 · 16-02-2021 10:47AM

khalessi wrote: »

They are also looking at Data coming out of Germany and schools re closing in Denmark. These new variants have them very worried

Have schools been closed in these counties again?

khalessi · 16-02-2021 10:54AM

Worries in Germany about an epidemic within an epidemic

The total number of new cases is falling, but variant cases are rising, because the current measures are insufficient to control more transmissible variants.

Schools closing again in Denmark

Sammy2012 · 16-02-2021 10:58AM

khalessi wrote: »

Worries in Germany about an epidemic within an epidemic

The total number of new cases is falling, but variant cases are rising, because the current measures are insufficient to control more transmissible variants.

Schools closing again in Denmark

Sorry I just googled it. Denmark had only reopened 5 days previously.

khalessi · 16-02-2021 11:02AM

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Sorry I just googled it. Denmark had only reopened 5 days previously.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20210213/denmark-closes-schools-in-copenhagen-suburb-after-infection-surge

Yup interesting as we looked to them early in this to see how they were handling cases. Looks like we are all struggling. They only went back 8th feb and older kids still online.

Stateofyou · 16-02-2021 11:03AM

combat14 wrote: »

EU agency urges immediate and tough steps to prevent fresh Covid-19 wave

Tough and immediate public health interventions are needed to prevent a fresh wave of Covid-19 deaths caused by variants of the virus that are sweeping the continent, European health authorities have warned

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eu-agency-urges-immediate-and-tough-steps-to-prevent-fresh-covid-19-wave-1.4485835?mode=amp

wonder what tough preventative measures mean ... reopen all the schools....??

It would mean actually implementing a hybrid remote learning system to reduce class sizes while catering for those with underlying condition, or when anyone were to become ill/need to quarantine.
I think masks should be mandated for primary school. Teachers should probably double mask.
Ventilation needs to be present and used to it's fullest capacity. The dept should allocate additional funding for heating budgets, and in rooms where ventilation is not possible, air purifiers should be sourced. (Didn't someone post a link here about that months ago, inexpensive purifiers that Germany were using??). Might need to look at what secondary students especially are doing on their lunch breaks too and mitigate for that.

Also ensuring there is good social distancing control by the teachers, and no singing inside, etc.

Edited to add: a strong test and trace system needs to be up and running, and get rid of the farce of a definition of what a close contact constitutes in the schools.

If something like the above were to be implemented, then maybe we can safely open the schools and keep the spikes from happening until more of us are vaccinated later this summer.

Will the dept do anything at all? I'm not very hopeful. I really hate feeling stuck in this place. Half of me says I'm keeping my kids at home if nothing is done as I would absolutely expect at this stage, and the other half of me says my kids need school and their friends, and we should roll the dice. I resent the DES/NF for putting parents in that stressful position all year really, but especially now. Just put some work and planning into it already FFS. Don't get me started on not having a plan for the LC/JC students by now, either.

khalessi · 16-02-2021 11:10AM

The whole handling of the school situation has been a disgrace. Last year when we were coming back there was a school in the papers as no space to sd according to Dept guidelines and they wanted to hire a hall and NoFo wasn't having it. Anything that disrupts the party line of schools are safe is verboden.

This mantra makes people think well if schools are safe sure it is ok to relax a bit. THey need to be honest. Schools are not safe like anywhere else but this is what we do to make them as safe as possible.

Teachers proper ppe FFP3 masks, goggles and long gowns,
Classes half in half out
Ventilation CO2 monitors and Hepta filter units in each class.
Prpoer close contact tracing
Proper id of close contacts
Include school staff as cc where necessary
Stop hiding the figures as community figures.
Masks in primary schools.

To start with

MerlinSouthDub · 16-02-2021 11:18AM

khalessi wrote: »

They are also looking at Data coming out of Germany and schools re closing in Denmark. These new variants have them very worried

Schools in Denmark have only closed in one suburb of Copenhagen.

Sammy2012 · 16-02-2021 11:19AM

khalessi wrote: »

The whole handling of the school situation has been a disgrace. Last year when we were coming back there was a school in the papers as no space to sd according to Dept guidelines and they wanted to hire a hall and NoFo wasn't having it. Anything that disrupts the party line of schools are safe is verboden.

This mantra makes people think well if schools are safe sure it is ok to relax a bit. THey need to be honest. Schools are not safe like anywhere else but this is what we do to make them as safe as possible.

Teachers proper ppe FFP3 masks, goggles and long gowns,
Classes half in half out
Ventilation CO2 monitors and Hepta filter units in each class.
Prpoer close contact tracing
Proper id of close contacts
Include school staff as cc where necessary
Stop hiding the figures as community figures.
Masks in primary schools.

To start with

I seen a video of a school on Facebook and they were doing a domino challenge and every child had a mask on. They all looked so happy. I know it would be a challenge for my own kids to wear a mask but they would if everyone else was.

Stateofyou · 16-02-2021 11:21AM

Agree Khalessi. The entire DES up to and especially it's minister needs a shakedown and restructure.
Someone needs to be in that position who's able and willing to tackle the systemic issues that have been plaguing that dept for years and years. Someone who is forward thinking, innovative, talented and tenacious.
Why does Josepha have a ministerial position, and wtf does she actually do?!
Why can't we have a better system and more effective leadership?
It shouldn't be a pipe dream we tell ourselves to 'get real' about.

khalessi · 16-02-2021 11:22AM

Sammy2012 wrote: »

I seen a video of a school on Facebook and they were doing a domino challenge and every child had a mask on. They all looked so happy. I know it would be a challenge for my own kids to wear a mask but they would if everyone else was.

I think it is just going to have to be done.

People kick up a huge stink here about it but I dont understand why Irish kids are different to the thousands of kids around the world who wear them to school.

Kids will wear them as well as the adults do and in most cases better.

Mine have been wearing them out and about since last March no bother.

Stateofyou · 16-02-2021 11:30AM

My kids have worn masks to school every day since Sept. up to Christmas break. They were in a very few minority. Some parents commented to us about it, saying their kids thought they would be made fun of or feel too different if they wore one. I thought it was a cop out, tbh, and maybe more the parents fear/hangups than the kids and what people would think of them (overreacting, precious, etc).

I regularly checked with my kids in Sept about how it was going. They got a few questions from other kids asking why in the first week or two. We had anticipated this and given our kids a very simple scientific explanation they could say. It was simply accepted, no one made fun of them, and one of my son's friends wore a mask after he explained why he was wearing it.
They had a break in wearing during lunch and outside play, and they said they feel fine otherwise. In my opinion/experience, it's not the big deal many parents make it out to be.

JDD · 16-02-2021 11:40AM

I'm a bit confused on the whole talk about variants. As I understand it, covid is always mutating in subtle ways, but the vast majority of these mutations either die out because they made the virus more vulnerable, or just hang about because they are neither more nor less resilient than the original strain. I remember the boffins on the vaccine thread saying that covid was relatively stable and the vast vast majority of mutations will be covered by any vaccine.

I suppose because so many people have been infected by this virus it was inevitable that one or two more fundamental mutations were bound to happen.

As far as I'm aware, there are three variants at present that make covid more transmissible (jury still out on whether these variants are more deadly): the UK strain, the South Africa strain and the Brazilian strain.

As I understand it, the Pfizer vaccine works well against the UK and SA strains. The AZ vaccine works well against the UK strain, and in its current form isn't great for protecting against the SA strain, but they think a booster shot might help. We're awaiting results for both vaccines on how well they might work against the Brazilian strain, but experts believe - given the way the Pfizer vaccine is made - that it will also work against the Brazilian strain.

So as it stands our vaccines will work pretty much just as well against the variants as the original virus. And these variants are pretty rare, given how stable Covid normally is and how, when it does mutate, the mutations are usually rubbish.

So where does that leave us. Should we keep the schools closed until 70% of the world is vaccinated (and therefore the risk of variants reduces)? That's hardly viable, because that would be next year. Do we keep schools closed until 70% of our own population is vaccinated? At a most optimistic view, that will be September, if not Christmas. So that's hardly viable either.

So I think we have to put talk of variants - and possible variants that don't exist yet - to one side, and go back to basics. We are attempting to protect our health system from being overwhelmed by hospitalisations, and that is why schools are closed. Once over 70's are vaccinated, that will take the largest chunk of possible hospitalisations away.

Opening schools will increase circulation of the virus in the community. It will. But opening schools in March will mean that the impact of that increased circulation will not be felt for 4-6 weeks, especially if all retail and hospitality remain closed. By mid April, all over 70's will have had their first shot. That should mean that opening schools in March will have a limited consequence on hospitalisations, and a lesser one as time goes on. So I'm in favour of opening the schools in March - I think it's the earliest they can be safely opened, and given the impact on children and parents in keeping them closed, they should be opened as early as is possible.

khalessi · 16-02-2021 11:49AM

JDD wrote: »

I'm a bit confused on the whole talk about variants. As I understand it, covid is always mutating in subtle ways, but the vast majority of these mutations either die out because they made the virus more vulnerable, or just hang about because they are neither more nor less resilient than the original strain. I remember the boffins on the vaccine thread saying that covid was relatively stable and the vast vast majority of mutations will be covered by any vaccine.

I suppose because so many people have been infected by this virus it was inevitable that one or two more fundamental mutations were bound to happen.

As far as I'm aware, there are three variants at present that make covid more transmissible (jury still out on whether these variants are more deadly): the UK strain, the South Africa strain and the Brazilian strain.

As I understand it, the Pfizer vaccine works well against the UK and SA strains. The AZ vaccine works well against the UK strain, and in its current form isn't great for protecting against the SA strain, but they think a booster shot might help. We're awaiting results for both vaccines on how well they might work against the Brazilian strain, but experts believe - given the way the Pfizer vaccine is made - that it will also work against the Brazilian strain.

So as it stands our vaccines will work pretty much just as well against the variants as the original virus. And these variants are pretty rare, given how stable Covid normally is and how, when it does mutate, the mutations are usually rubbish.

So where does that leave us. Should we keep the schools closed until 70% of the world is vaccinated (and therefore the risk of variants reduces)? That's hardly viable, because that would be next year. Do we keep schools closed until 70% of our own population is vaccinated? At a most optimistic view, that will be September, if not Christmas. So that's hardly viable either.

So I think we have to put talk of variants - and possible variants that don't exist yet - to one side, and go back to basics. We are attempting to protect our health system from being overwhelmed by hospitalisations, and that is why schools are closed. Once over 70's are vaccinated, that will take the largest chunk of possible hospitalisations away.

Opening schools will increase circulation of the virus in the community. It will. But opening schools in March will mean that the impact of that increased circulation will not be felt for 4-6 weeks, especially if all retail and hospitality remain closed. By mid April, all over 70's will have had their first shot. That should mean that opening schools in March will have a limited consequence on hospitalisations, and a lesser one as time goes on. So I'm in favour of opening the schools in March - I think it's the earliest they can be safely opened, and given the impact on children and parents in keeping them closed, they should be opened as early as is possible.

I disagree with you suggesting putting all talk of variants aside. That is just silly and not the opinion of the many epidemiologists who are discussing them at the moment and trying to bring them to the public's attention.

Yes they are inconvenient and yes there will always be variants some are worse then others. There are plenty around at the moment but the experts are very concerned about the UK African and Brazialian strains.

Should we ignore them, no, there is a reason these are being focused on.

Instead we should focus on how to deal with them. PWe know they are more virulant so how do we prevent them. What can we do to make schools as safe as possible for our students and staff particularly since the new variants are more transmissible in younger children this time around.

josip · 16-02-2021 11:51AM

combat14 wrote: »

reading the following full indo article about latest covid 19 news its very hard to see how there is any justification to open schools next month .. just way too soon...

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/major-covid-outbreaks-at-two-universities-as-students-flout-rules-40096935.html

The justification is non-Covid; it's for the mental well being of every school going child in the country.
But in this country we seem to have forgotten that there is anything apart from Covid.

That article is about Uni students mixing in households, (OMG who could have expected that? :rolleyes: )
But how does that have any relevance to reopening primary and secondary schools?

khalessi · 16-02-2021 11:58AM

josip wrote: »

The justification is non-Covid; it's for the mental well being of every school going child in the country.
But in this country we seem to have forgotten that there is anything apart from Covid.

That article is about Uni students mixing in households, (OMG who could have expected that? :rolleyes: )
But how does that have any relevance to reopening primary and secondary schools?

Its distraction, keep eye off primary schools while they try to reopen without changing a thing.

Even Ronan Glynn at NPHET meeting last night, ehhmm yeah it is airborne yadda yadda yadda, we mentioned ventilation before but maybe not in name and then goes on to mention how it is important indoors in pubs restautants where people gather but doesn't mention schools. He mentions the two areas which have no chance of reopening soon but doenst mention the one that will be and also concerns large gatherings of crowds.

Deepti Gudasani, Dr. Zoe Hyde, Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, Dr Gabriel Scally, Dr. Nisreem Alwan all talk about schools and covid, it is an international topic. But Ireland is taking the WW2 approach, what world war? This is an emergency sure no panic.

vid36 · 16-02-2021 11:59AM

Schools to reopen on a phased basis from March 1. That seems to be the plan anyway.

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1197348/?__twitter_impression=true

mloc123 · 16-02-2021 12:01PM

khalessi wrote: »

Dr Gabriel Scally

:rolleyes:

SusanC10 · 16-02-2021 12:02PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

My kids have worn masks to school every day since Sept. up to Christmas break. They were in a very few minority. Some parents commented to us about it, saying their kids thought they would be made fun of or feel too different if they wore one. I thought it was a cop out, tbh, and maybe more the parents fear/hangups than the kids and what people would think of them (overreacting, precious, etc).

I regularly checked with my kids in Sept about how it was going. They got a few questions from other kids asking why in the first week or two. We had anticipated this and given our kids a very simple scientific explanation they could say. It was simply accepted, no one made fun of them, and one of my son's friends wore a mask after he explained why he was wearing it.
They had a break in wearing during lunch and outside play, and they said they feel fine otherwise. In my opinion/experience, it's not the big deal many parents make it out to be.

Both of our kids wore Masks too from August to Christmas. Secondary obviously mandatory but our 5th Class daughter wore one too. They both got used to it very quickly.

We too explained our thinking to both kids. I spoke to the Teacher on the phone the first week. She was in the minority in the Class and I am sure some of the other Parents thought that we were odd but that doesn't bother me.

wirelessdude01 · 16-02-2021 12:04PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Both of our kids wore Masks too from August to Christmas. Secondary obviously mandatory but our 5th Class daughter wore one too. They both got used to it very quickly.

We too explained our thinking to both kids. I spoke to the Teacher on the phone the first week. She was in the minority in the Class and I am sure some of the other Parents thought that we were odd but that doesn't bother me.

I had a few who wore them from first day back as well. Not a word was said to them by anyone. Why would it be?

Stateofyou · 16-02-2021 12:14PM

JDD wrote: »

So as it stands our vaccines will work pretty much just as well against the variants as the original virus. And these variants are pretty rare, given how stable Covid normally is and how, when it does mutate, the mutations are usually rubbish.

So where does that leave us. Should we keep the schools closed until 70% of the world is vaccinated (and therefore the risk of variants reduces)? That's hardly viable, because that would be next year. Do we keep schools closed until 70% of our own population is vaccinated? At a most optimistic view, that will be September, if not Christmas. So that's hardly viable either.

So I think we have to put talk of variants - and possible variants that don't exist yet - to one side, and go back to basics. We are attempting to protect our health system from being overwhelmed by hospitalisations, and that is why schools are closed. Once over 70's are vaccinated, that will take the largest chunk of possible hospitalisations away.

Opening schools will increase circulation of the virus in the community. It will. But opening schools in March will mean that the impact of that increased circulation will not be felt for 4-6 weeks, especially if all retail and hospitality remain closed. By mid April, all over 70's will have had their first shot. That should mean that opening schools in March will have a limited consequence on hospitalisations, and a lesser one as time goes on. So I'm in favour of opening the schools in March - I think it's the earliest they can be safely opened, and given the impact on children and parents in keeping them closed, they should be opened as early as is possible.

I think where you start to slide here is when making conclusions about what the vaccines will/won't do. Some research has shown that the new strains are a big problem for vaccines we have. Didn't S.A. halt their vaccination program because of it?

We can't leave the issue of the variants aside. Governments around the world are taking serious note of it, and has changed policies and approaches everywhere. Governments around the world are mitigating for these new variants, why should the education sector in Ireland ignore it?

I'm in favour of the schools opening, of course we all are. But we need to do it smartly, controlled, and therefore safely. Overwhelmed hospitals with serious ICU cases and deaths are not the only concern here. Some people will become very sick and for a long amount of time (5+ weeks) and some have not fully recovered many months later. We don't yet know what the virus will do to our organs long term. We can't and shouldn't be blasé about our safety when there are reasonable safety mitigation approaches staring us in the face. It just takes political will and talent.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 16-02-2021 12:19PM

The lack of thinking outside the box on reopening baffles me. Still going for full reopening even if it's staggered.

Why has splitting school population in half by doing alternate weeks not been considered?

SD, as usual, will be impossible so we going with 2 masks, windows open and fingers crossed now?

Icyseanfitz · 16-02-2021 12:22PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

The lack of thinking outside the box on reopening baffles me. Still going for full reopening even if it's staggered.

Why has splitting school population in half by doing alternate weeks not been considered?

SD, as usual, will be impossible so we going with 2 masks, windows open and fingers crossed now?

Anything to be said for another mass :pac:

khalessi · 16-02-2021 12:24PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Anything to be said for another mass :pac:

Thoughts and prayers Icy thoughts and prayers

Icyseanfitz · 16-02-2021 12:31PM

Is Norma meant to outline her plans today? We should create a drinking game based on how often she reiterates to us that schools are perfectly safe

and no matter what happens in the real world, all students return fulltime starting Monday.

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01