Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Mrsmum wrote:

But it's like people want to compare the LC students unfavourable all the time with college students, to just throw (unfair imo) digs eg they want their hands held etc yet if say one was to say let's do open book exams, as they do in college, it's then immediately oh no that would be cheating for LC students. My point is they are not comparable in the first place.

I think open book exams could be a great idea as they are not as easy as some may think. I have a friend in 4th year in college and finds them very challenging. And she was voted best on the course for the previous year so she's a great student.

Warbeastrior wrote: »

I think open book exams could be a great idea as they are not as easy as some may think. I have a friend in 4th year in college and finds them very challenging. And she was voted best on the course for the previous year so she's a great student.

Very different doing open book exam at college to 2nd level. Some subject teachers would generally provide full answers to most likely questions and a student would just have to copy them out.

If they were to do open book, you'd have to redraw the type of questioning in exam and this would place some weaker students at a big disadvantage.

Even at that students would have siblings who recently completed the LC who might help them, a parent who might have gotten 570 in the leaving or they'd be in contact with each other thro Snapchat.

Of things likely to happen I'd put open book down the list, especially given the level of Dept initiative shown so far.

But never say never.

lostintipp wrote: »

So why don't they just try and match as many students up with their first choice. Maybe the universities have to be part of the solution by increasing the intake into the popular courses.

Because the first choice so greatly outweighs the number of places available that it isn't possible.

If you look at page 6 of this report: http://www2.cao.ie/dir_report/pdf/caoreport2019.pdf

Even with just primary teaching as an example - nearly 3,000 applicants put it as a first preference, with only 1,200 offers made. Medicine is worse - nearly 3,000 first preferences and only 800-odd offers.

(Edited to add: and do we want/need another 3,000 primary teachers in 4 years time? Or 480 vets? It's not all just about what the students want)

Rosalita wrote: »

I understand that this comment will probably be overlooked because it is not in keeping with the general trend of this thread but, as a teacher, I have just looked at the work that has been submitted to me for correction (Seniors and Juniors) since last Friday. Five school days ago. There are 142 exercises (mostly essays) that I have corrected and provided detailed feedback on. That's alongside teaching from 9-3.30, preparing work, answering emails, enquiring about missing work and student issues and minding my own primary school children. Wanting work back within a couple of days (or even a week) is a difficult task while in a school setting, LET ALONE while online teaching in the midst of a pandemic. I just feel it's sad that excellent contributors do not feel comfortable accessing this thread anymore and a wealth of knowledge and experience on what a school day ACTUALLY is like for a teacher has been lost. There are good and bad apples in EVERY facet of life, same as with teachers. Just something to remember.

Rosalita it is obvious you are doing an excellent job. I think during this period of remote learning both parents, students and teachers have 'expectations' of what should be achieved by the other party. Often these expectations cant be met for a variety of reasons which are not visable or communicated to the other party. Thats what causes the frustration. I really hope you enjoy a well deserved mid term.

Rosalita wrote: »

I understand that this comment will probably be overlooked because it is not in keeping with the general trend of this thread but, as a teacher, I have just looked at the work that has been submitted to me for correction (Seniors and Juniors) since last Friday. Five school days ago. There are 142 exercises (mostly essays) that I have corrected and provided detailed feedback on. That's alongside teaching from 9-3.30, preparing work, answering emails, enquiring about missing work and student issues and minding my own primary school children. Wanting work back within a couple of days (or even a week) is a difficult task while in a school setting, LET ALONE while online teaching in the midst of a pandemic. I just feel it's sad that excellent contributors do not feel comfortable accessing this thread anymore and a wealth of knowledge and experience on what a school day ACTUALLY is like for a teacher has been lost. There are good and bad apples in EVERY facet of life, same as with teachers. Just something to remember.

Rosalieta, as a parent I very much value your post and would like to see more of these kind of posts.
I asked the question earlier about teachers returning corrected work so not sure if you are referring to that in your post. I do see that teachers are likely swamped with work but I hope teachers see it from the students' pov also.

Rosalita wrote: »

I understand that this comment will probably be overlooked because it is not in keeping with the general trend of this thread but, as a teacher, I have just looked at the work that has been submitted to me for correction (Seniors and Juniors) since last Friday. Five school days ago. There are 142 exercises (mostly essays) that I have corrected and provided detailed feedback on. That's alongside teaching from 9-3.30, preparing work, answering emails, enquiring about missing work and student issues and minding my own primary school children. Wanting work back within a couple of days (or even a week) is a difficult task while in a school setting, LET ALONE while online teaching in the midst of a pandemic. I just feel it's sad that excellent contributors do not feel comfortable accessing this thread anymore and a wealth of knowledge and experience on what a school day ACTUALLY is like for a teacher has been lost. There are good and bad apples in EVERY facet of life, same as with teachers. Just something to remember.

My OH is a teacher and I used to be one...She has around 200 students to look after when all her classes are considered...she has being trying to make stuff for her TYs less onerous in terms of written work but that still leaves upwards of 170 potential pieces of work to view /acknowledge/grade etc for every class

she tells me theres around a 50% submission rate so that reduces that 170 to about 85 but then there is contact with most of these classes 2 or 3 times a week (depending on timetable) so multiply that by around 2.5 so thats over 200 pieces of work a week she is looking over.

Its just not feasible to have everything back within a day or two on top of setting up assignments, pre-recording videos and chasing up after reporting back on all the people that dont submit work and significant percentage of these people would no doubt be accusing teachers of doing nothing and dont forget then attending all her live classes as well

What she does is pre-record corrections videos as well with all the correct answers common pitfalls etc etc and request students actually make the effort to look at their work and compare to the solutions/answers filling in blanks, incorrect answers etc and ask them to submit proof they are you know taking some responsibility for their own learning...which then leads to more work for her to trawl through and chase non submissions (even if that is recording/counting and sending the info to managemanet it still takes hours in front of a computer screen)

She usually blocks the feedback on a weekend when there are no live classes...this is Sunday with the addition of prep for Monday.

I think people really only view teachers from the one to one interaction they have with them and if they dont get immediate feedback to their satisfaction they assume the teacher is doing nothing. They dont realise you have to multiply what they see by up to 200 sometimes.

Now 200 times zero is still zero but theres less and less of that these days. You just wouldnt get away with it for too long.

I'd imagine if a some of the people having a cut at teachers here actually had to do the job they would have an eye opener on the workload alone while you are at it and thats before you get into completely inadequate structures for dealing with challenging behaviour etc etc

So my Sons school had a meeting this morning and then had a zoom call with all the LC students.
They have decided that if they are back in school before March 15th the mocks will go ahead. If they have not been in school prior to this the mocks will 100% not be going ahead.
They also said they will not be doing mocks immediately when they go back they want them to have 2-3 weeks in school prior to this so hinting they expect them back after midterm but they have no clear indication either way.
You could tell from the year head that they are so frustrated with everything being up in the air with no guidance from the DES.

Just logged back in for a browse. I'm actually scarlet for an adult that brags about the LC result probably a decade or more after the event. Omg, might explain the rereg .

Really takes all sorts.

insullation wrote: »

I'm not on either side but I can't understand how a party to talks would walk away from talks in the middle of a once in 100 year national emergency. I don't care what is on the table - as a Country will are in a terrible state right now and for the foreseeable future. Recovery could take years at best....Its these kids are are going to be paying public sector wages in years to come. Least both parties could do is talk.

So if you were in a room to discuss x and the other party would only discuss y you would sit there for the national good and talk about y? Or would you sit there and keep restating that you were there to talk about x?

At some stage you have to stand up to bullies. The des and Norma have been disingenuous from the start in their dealings with the unions. Someone has to call them out on that.

Random sample wrote: »

So if you were in a room to discuss x and the other party would only discuss y you would sit there for the national good and talk about y? Or would you sit there and keep restating that you were there to talk about x?

At some stage you have to stand up to bullies. The des and Norma have been disingenuous from the start in their dealings with the unions. Someone has to call them out on that.

It was probably clear there was no constructive dialogue and they were just being strung along / used

Wouldn't be surprised if they had decided in advance ant of the usual shennanigans and we walk ...comsiderimg the stunts that have been pulled in the past by Govt where union has been left to take the blame and carry the can they probably wanted to try get ahead of this one rather than get rolled again....

I would be against Calculated Grades as I was last year. I don't love our CAO system but I think it is about as fair as we could get in terms of supply and demand etc...over 15 years teaching I have seen kids bust a gut to get into courses, and kids of similar ability bust a gut and just miss out on courses. Not fair for sure, but at least it was a level playing field and the rules were set...and fixed. Last year in my own school I again saw kids get into courses and kids miss out on courses based on class tests, guesswork, favouritism, a flawed algorithm. It did reduce stress, it did allow those to move on, I was happy to do it. They were great kids and I was happy once they were. A few got pulled down by the algorithm and I was gutted for them.
The easiest thing in the world for me to do today (timewise) is to sit down and pull up the class grades of my class over the last year and a bit and rank the students accordingly. Will take very little time. I have an excel sheet ready. There are a couple of extremely bright lads who actually hadn't started working yet (H1, H2 standard), who would have come good....should I jump them a few spots....over who? The lad (H3/H4 standard) who had his head down and did well in the class tests...maybe...but sure the other lad can do the exam if he isn't happy? I suppose he can....should I tell him now so he knows he is 10th in the class and not 4th so he can keep working for that? Should I not be as generous with the inflation in case he does go and sit the exam...and I've boosted all his classmates, as that is what the school up the road did last year and by God my school won't be caught out this year!?
Is it fairer than getting the kids back into school on the 22nd, reducing the material to be covered by half, giving more options on the exam etc? I don't think so but there just seems to be huge opposition from parents, students etc (not all I know and don't want to be guilty of a sweeping statement, there is lots of them on here) to a system that still wants to put their futures in THEIR hands.
I just don't get where people can think teachers are being lazy and want out of doing work as result. I WANT to go to school and teach them for March, April and May INSTEAD of one afternoon ranking them and being done?! I want more work, not less.
Anxiety and stress are the big issues of course but they come from uncertainty I would suggest, which lies firmly at the feet of Norma and the Department who had no backup plan whatsoever for this scenario.

Random sample wrote: »

So if you were in a room to discuss x and the other party would only discuss y you would sit there for the national good and talk about y? Or would you sit there and keep restating that you were there to talk about x?

At some stage you have to stand up to bullies. The des and Norma have been disingenuous from the start in their dealings with the unions. Someone has to call them out on that.

Is now the right time to standup to bullies as you call them...you could argue its the other way around for years....has there ever been a year in history that teacher unions have not threatened to strike over some or other - is that not bully boy tactics . If the DES had walked away there would have been uproar but its okay for union to walk away. Anyway not going to get into argument but just can't believe a party would walk away in the middle of a pandemic thats all.

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

The ASTI walking away from talks achieves nothing, particularly for LC students, who are already stressed (I've one at home). I get that they are against calculated grades, but to talk of students sitting a "traditional leaving cert" is nonsense when students have missed so much school. I don't know what the best option is, but I know walking from talks isn't it.

If students go back in March the best option is, in my opinion, to move the LC to the end of July and the curriculum is taught up to then. Would ASTI go for that ? I think if it was put to them calculated grades would be back on the table fairly sharpish.

But they're not actually 'walking away' though, they were back in for 'talks about talks' today. IMO it's just a tactic to show the minister they mean business and won't be pushed around

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But they're not actually 'walking away' though, they were back in for 'talks about talks' today. IMO it's just a tactic to show the minister they mean business and won't be pushed around

For a party to those talks to take the decision that they did they had to be pretty sure that one side was totally entrenched in their view.