Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

khalessi

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-agrees-to-fresh-talks-with-foley-after-quitting-leaving-cert-negotiations-1.4482443?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Fasti-agrees-to-fresh-talks-with-foley-after-quitting-leaving-cert-negotiations-1.4482443

ASTI agrees to fresh talks with Foley after quitting Leaving Cert negotiations

Leftwaffe

khalessi wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-agrees-to-fresh-talks-with-foley-after-quitting-leaving-cert-negotiations-1.4482443?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Fasti-agrees-to-fresh-talks-with-foley-after-quitting-leaving-cert-negotiations-1.4482443

ASTI agrees to fresh talks with Foley after quitting Leaving Cert negotiations

Some mess the whole thing. Can’t believe some people find it acceptable that the department and its minister are still scrambling for an idea in February of year 2 of all this. How hard is it to expect a bit of pre-planning?

Yet teachers and the unions will be blamed. Dept can do no wrong in the eyes of some. Even when it’s plainly obvious it’s been a malfunctioning mess for years.

Locotastic

billy_beckham wrote: »

Indo reporting this morning the ASTI pulled out of talks to re open as well!?!

"That came less than 24 hours after it set itself apart from the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) by formally rejecting the broad plan to underpin the phased return of second-level schools in coming weeks.

The ASTI said the plan, which covers issues such as infection control measures and contact tracing and testing for school staff, was “unacceptable” but has not explained what additional measures it is seeking."

But its the departments fault of course....

Not surprised one bit, but they are back entering talks again today apparently, which was quicker than I expected.

The government are doing them a favour by entertaining their nonsense, or given the predictability of ASTI, the government are using them as a delay tatic.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Morning lads. Another day of it on here

Quick simple question for Loco and Billy.

Who would you have responsible for contingency planning regarding LC assessment?

Should the Dept have had a plan since maybe Sept? Should we all know what would happen in various scenarios, such as the one we're in?

Would be great if you could give an answer other than, no point in trying cos the unions wouldn't do it.

Show where the Dept have planned for all contingencies, given that's their job.

billy_beckham

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Morning lads. Another day of it on here

Quick simple question for Loco and Billy.

Who would you have responsible for contingency planning regarding LC assessment?

Should the Dept have had a plan since maybe Sept? Should we all know what would happen in various scenarios, such as the one we're in?

Would be great if you could give an answer other than, no point in trying cos the unions wouldn't do it.

Show where the Dept have planned for all contingencies, given that's their job.

Answered last night...

lostintipp

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Some mess the whole thing. Can’t believe some people find it acceptable that the department and its minister are still scrambling for an idea in February of year 2 of all this. How hard is it to expect a bit of pre-planning?

Yet teachers and the unions will be blamed. Dept can do no wrong in the eyes of some. Even when it’s plainly obvious it’s been a malfunctioning mess for years.

To be fair this government did try their best to drive on and keep the schools open this school year and had they managed to do this they would probably have got away with holding a traditional leaving cert.

Unfortunately the virus changed and the situation deteriorated probably a lot quicker than they expected.

But please remember the government did try to keep the 60000 leaving cert students in school but the unions would not even entertain the matter.

So now we are left with a situation were 60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle, this claims the union makes it impossible for their members to provide accurate predictive grades (which is probably true) but somehow its ok to send these kids off half prepared into a traditional leaving cert....talk about throwing the kids under a bus.

jimmytwotimes 2013

billy_beckham wrote: »

Answered last night...

Thanks for that Billy. Good chat. Enjoy your day.

khalessi

lostintipp wrote: »

To be fair this government did try their best to drive on and keep the schools open this school year and had they managed to do this they would probably have got away with holding a traditional leaving cert.

Unfortunately the virus changed and the situation deteriorated probably a lot quicker than they expected.

But please remember the government did try to keep the 60000 leaving cert students in school but the unions would not even entertain the matter.

So now we are left with a situation were 60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle, this claims the union makes it impossible for their members to provide accurate predictive grades (which is probably true) but somehow its ok to send these kids off half prepared into a traditional leaving cert....talk about throwing the kids under a bus.

The government went on a one woman solo run where NoFo without seeking advice from NPHET Taoiseach or Tanaiste to get LC students into school at a time when community transmission was at the hightest it ever had been

THe taoiseach even came out and said the unions were correct

jimmytwotimes 2013

lostintipp wrote: »

To be fair this government did try their best to drive on and keep the schools open this school year and had they managed to do this they would probably have got away with holding a traditional leaving cert.

Unfortunately the virus changed and the situation deteriorated probably a lot quicker than they expected.

But please remember the government did try to keep the 60000 leaving cert students in school but the unions would not even entertain the matter.

So now we are left with a situation were 60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle, this claims the union makes it impossible for their members to provide accurate predictive grades (which is probably true) but somehow its ok to send these kids off half prepared into a traditional leaving cert....talk about throwing the kids under a bus.

*Sighs*

NPHET said just yesterday that a full reopening isn't safe.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40225289.html

And, the unions are not looking for a traditional LC, they're looking for a modified one, open access to college or some form of assessment in school if LCs return.

lostintipp

Surely the solution at this point is just to abandon the leaving cert for the year and move on to look at how to get the students ready for university.

As the cao applications are already in you will have found that most of the kids will already have graded themselves and picked courses that had a points entry level which would not have been too far away from what they would have been likely to have achieved if they had done a proper leaving cert.

So why don't they just try and match as many students up with their first choice. Maybe the universities have to be part of the solution by increasing the intake into the popular courses.

lostintipp

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

*Sighs*

NPHET said just yesterday that a full reopening isn't safe.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40225289.html

And, the unions are not looking for a traditional LC, they're looking for a modified one, open access to college or some form of assessment in school if LCs return.

Full opening isn't safe, big difference in 1 million to 60000 but you sigh on

jimmytwotimes 2013

lostintipp wrote: »

Surely the solution at this point is just to abandon the leaving cert for the year and move on to look at how to get the students ready for university.

As the cao applications are already in you will have found that most of the kids will already have graded themselves and picked courses that had a points entry level which would not have been too far away from what they would have been likely to have achieved if they had done a proper leaving cert.

So why don't they just try and match as many students up with their first choice. Maybe the universities have to be part of the solution by increasing the intake into the popular courses.

ASTI head last night said the same thing on Prime Time, that open access to college should be considered as an option going forward. According to her, the Dept wasn't entertaining idea.

wirelessdude01

lostintipp wrote: »

Surely the solution at this point is just to abandon the leaving cert for the year and move on to look at how to get the students ready for university.

As the cao applications are already in you will have found that most of the kids will already have graded themselves and picked courses that had a points entry level which would not have been too far away from what they would have been likely to have achieved if they had done a proper leaving cert.

So why don't they just try and match as many students up with their first choice. Maybe the universities have to be part of the solution by increasing the intake into the popular courses.

Open access is not something that the DES have allowed to be discussed.

lostintipp

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Open access is not something that the DES have allowed to be discussed.

Open access would no doubt end in a pr disaster zone for the government too, you could already see the interviews on rte news of the kids who put down a 300 point course as their first choice but they were actually going to change it to medicine when the change of mind window opened.

Deeec

lostintipp wrote: »

Open access would no doubt end in a pr disaster zone for the government too, you could already see the interviews on rte news of the kids who put down a 300 point course as their first choice but they were actually going to change it to medicine when the change of mind window opened.

Could the universities/colleges set some sort of aptitude test for students to weed out the unsuitables to avoid this issue?

The whole thing is a mess. I think the union is right on this one. Blame on this fiasco lies with the DES. They have buried there head in the sand on all educational issues over the last year.

History Queen

lostintipp wrote: »

To be fair this government did try their best to drive on and keep the schools open this school year and had they managed to do this they would probably have got away with holding a traditional leaving cert.

Unfortunately the virus changed and the situation deteriorated probably a lot quicker than they expected.

But please remember the government did try to keep the 60000 leaving cert students in school but the unions would not even entertain the matter.

So now we are left with a situation were 60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle, this claims the union makes it impossible for their members to provide accurate predictive grades (which is probably true) but somehow its ok to send these kids off half prepared into a traditional leaving cert....talk about throwing the kids under a bus.

Don't let facts get in the way of your argument anyway.

lostintipp

History Queen wrote: »

Don't let facts get in the way of your argument anyway.

Meaning?

Choochtown

lostintipp wrote: »

Surely the solution at this point is just to abandon the leaving cert for the year and move on to look at how to get the students ready for university.

As the cao applications are already in you will have found that most of the kids will already have graded themselves and picked courses that had a points entry level which would not have been too far away from what they would have been likely to have achieved if they had done a proper leaving cert.

So why don't they just try and match as many students up with their first choice. Maybe the universities have to be part of the solution by increasing the intake into the popular courses.

More or less what I suggested last May

Choochtown wrote: »

Apologies if this has been mentioned but I think there may be a way to make predicted grades only applicable to a small percentage of students.
I'm open to correction on anything I write below as this is just off the top of my head.

The main reason LC results are needed are for 3rd level places. Therefore get the 3rd level institutes involved. The vast vast majority of students who want to go on to 3rd level get to go on. We just need to be a little bit clever with how places are allocated.

Some courses are oversubscribed and some are under-subscribed so lets start with the under-subscribed.

Example: A particular Chemistry degree in UCC has 50 places. 43 students have it as 1st choice on their CAO form. Therefore those 43 are automatically given a place. Straight away we have 43 students who don't need predicted grades and there's 7 places spare to offer during "round 2".
This process is repeated with every single under-subscribed 3rd level course in the country. Those students who had the course down as their 1st choice are not required to obtain predicted grades.
There are also quite a few courses who have interviews and portfolios as part of their entry requirements. Based on these, Colleges should be able to identify some students who have been exceptional in this regard and offer them places regardless of their leaving cert grades.

So that's round 1 done and a few thousand students who don't need LC grades.

Now on to round 2: The over-subscribed courses. Example: A particular Chemistry degree in UL is oversubscribed. Every student who has Chemistry in UL as their 1st choice is made aware that there are places available in (for example) UCC. An individual student may elect to take one of these guaranteed places or may decide to "risk" getting their predicted grades and holding out for their 1st choice.

Now after round 1 and round 2 the students who have decided not to take a course and stick it out can take their chances and apply for predicted grades.

Not a perfect system but much better than teachers having to give every single LC student in the country predicted grades.

Widdensushi

amacca wrote: »

Heard that bull**** recently too.......it's laughable, they struggle to recruit people to correct afaik

It's very long hrs, tedious work, poor pay and at the end of the balls get taxed off you

You think other people should get the balls taxed off them to pay your primary income but would prefer cash for grinds for any extra work?

History Queen

lostintipp wrote: »

Meaning?

Well you said "60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle". That isn't true. No doubt remote learning isn't equivalent to classroom teaching but your statement is patently untrue.

lostintipp

Choochtown wrote: »

More or less what I suggested last May

That all sounds perfectly reasonable given the circumstances

Warbeastrior

ASTI highlight the routes that they would be willing to take ie externally examined continuous work or open access to college to name two.
Then, the interviewer literally asks 2 minutes later
"So you're saying the only thing ye want is a traditional leaving cert?"

Would ya drop your agenda and listen, ya fool.

Prime Time presenters as well as Claire Byrne are embarrassing.

lostintipp

History Queen wrote: »

Well you said "60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle". That isn't true. No doubt remote learning isn't equivalent to classroom teaching but your statement is patently untrue.

Ok ok ok I will edit the statement to "60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months of anything closely resembling effective teaching in their leaving cert cycle"

Better?

Warbeastrior

lostintipp wrote:

Ok ok ok I will edit the statement to "60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months of anything closely resembling effective teaching in their leaving cert cycle"

That's not true. I've spoken to leaving cert students that are thriving with remote learning. They don't want to do back to school and would sit the traditional exam if they had to.

Not the case for everyone but this is why we have to stay away from sweeping statements.

beggars_bush

lostintipp wrote: »

To be fair this government did try their best to drive on and keep the schools open this school year and had they managed to do this they would probably have got away with holding a traditional leaving cert.

Unfortunately the virus changed and the situation deteriorated probably a lot quicker than they expected.

But please remember the government did try to keep the 60000 leaving cert students in school but the unions would not even entertain the matter.

So now we are left with a situation were 60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle, this claims the union makes it impossible for their members to provide accurate predictive grades (which is probably true) but somehow its ok to send these kids off half prepared into a traditional leaving cert....talk about throwing the kids under a bus.

Its the gubernments fault for opening things up so much for a 'meaningful xmas', whatever the feck that meant

You cannot blame unions for protecting their members

The DES did zero contingency planning on issues since last March. Zero

History Queen

lostintipp wrote: »

Ok ok ok I will edit the statement to "60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months of anything closely resembling effective teaching in their leaving cert cycle"

Better?

No. Again you aren't dealing in facts.

lostintipp

Warbeastrior wrote: »

That's not true. I've spoken to leaving cert students that are thriving with remote learning. They don't want to do back to school and would sit the traditional exam if they had to.

Not the case for everyone but this is why we have to stay away from sweeping statements.

I know, but I think it is fair to say that for most students they need to be in school to learn

monkeybutter

Warbeastrior wrote: »

That's not true. I've spoken to leaving cert students that are thriving with remote learning. They don't want to do back to school and would sit the traditional exam if they had to.

Not the case for everyone but this is why we have to stay away from sweeping statements.

have you spoken to leaving cert students who havent? this is the real issue

Mrsmum

As an aside to the LC debacle, can I ask if it is reasonable for a student to expect assignments from teachers to be corrected and returned in a timely manner or indeed at all. Was chatting to my son yesterday and he says - teachers tell us that it is disrespectful not to return work on time but I always do and how is it not disrespectful of them not to return corrected work for three weeks often and sometimes not at all. Because - says he - by the time the work is returned, I am concentrating on current work, haven't time to go back, and the learning opportunity is less than it could be. - This is various teachers. When they ask for their work, the answer is you'll get it when you get it kind of thing. Curious if this is common ?

monkeybutter

Mrsmum wrote: »

As an aside to the LC debacle, can I ask if it is reasonable for a student to expect assignments from teachers to be corrected and returned in a timely manner or indeed at all. Was chatting to my son yesterday and he says - teachers tell us that it is disrespectful not to return work on time but I always do and how is it not disrespectful of them not to return corrected work for three weeks often and sometimes not at all. Because - says he - by the time the work is returned, I am concentrating on current work, haven't time to go back, and the learning opportunity is less than it could be. This is various teachers. When they ask for their work, the answer is you'll get it when you get it kind of thing. Curious if this is common ?

depends on workload really your son is in a 1-1 relationship with each teacher, but they could be in a 1-60 relationship if say they were teaching 2 biology classes etc