Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Warbeastrior

lostintipp wrote:

I know, but I think it is fair to say that for most students they need to be in school to learn

That's not true though. That's another sweeping statement. 73% of leaving cert students surveyed a few weeks back didn't feel comfortable returning to school. Now i know things have changed since then a bit with numbers dropping but if remote teaching was as poor as your saying then I'm sure you wouldn't see that high a number of students not wanting to return to school.

Warbeastrior

lostintipp wrote:

I know, but I think it is fair to say that for most students they need to be in school to learn

That's not true though. That's another sweeping statement. 73% of leaving cert students surveyed a few weeks back didn't feel comfortable returning to school. Now i know things have changed since then a bit with numbers dropping but if remote teaching was as poor as your saying then I'm sure you wouldn't see that high a number of students not wanting to return to school.

BiggJim

Mrsmum wrote: »

As an aside to the LC debacle, can I ask if it is reasonable for a student to expect assignments from teachers to be corrected and returned in a timely manner or indeed at all. Was chatting to my son yesterday and he says - teachers tell us that it is disrespectful not to return work on time but I always do and how is it not disrespectful of them not to return corrected work for three weeks often and sometimes not at all. Because - says he - by the time the work is returned, I am concentrating on current work, haven't time to go back, and the learning opportunity is less than it could be. - This is various teachers. When they ask for their work, the answer is you'll get it when you get it kind of thing. Curious if this is common ?

That's an incredible double standard. Your son is right too if the work is not returned in a timely manner the learning opportunity is greatly diminished. Mind you this doesn't surprise me at all especially with how many reports of teachers doing their classes from abroad I've heard now.

Warbeastrior

monkeybutter wrote:

have you spoken to leaving cert students who havent? this is the real issue

I have but my point was to discredit a false sweeping statement.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Mrsmum wrote: »

As an aside to the LC debacle, can I ask if it is reasonable for a student to expect assignments from teachers to be corrected and returned in a timely manner or indeed at all. Was chatting to my son yesterday and he says - teachers tell us that it is disrespectful not to return work on time but I always do and how is it not disrespectful of them not to return corrected work for three weeks often and sometimes not at all. Because - says he - by the time the work is returned, I am concentrating on current work, haven't time to go back, and the learning opportunity is less than it could be. - This is various teachers. When they ask for their work, the answer is you'll get it when you get it kind of thing. Curious if this is common ?

Don't think anyone can answer if its common. Ring the school and ask if work could be returned at a quicker pace. You're entitled to voice your concerns

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

Front line worker means on the front line.
Essential worker means selling or providing 'essential' items ie food etc.
I don't like to pat myself on the back actually but since you asked if I have nothing better to do I as a matter of fact do. And my work is directly influenced by the crappy actions of these teachers who are neighbours. Whether it's 5 kids gathering in groups, 2 people in a house it all adds to the spread of covid which directly impacts me.
So while the teachers are worried about getting back to the classroom I pointed out that some of them are not so worried that they allow their children to congregate on a daily basis.
Must dash.. Although I've been up since 5 sorting my 3 home schooled children's material for the day, on to my 13 hour shift! Enjoy your day!

So your neighbours are allowing their children to mix, and now you want to try and extend that to the teaching profession in general? "Some of them?" No, that's just your neighbours. I suspect the early mornings, long shifts, and multiple children are behind the rant, because it's nothing really to do with teachers.

thomasdylan

Open access to college isnt going to work. Imagine 1500 people accepted into veterinary in UCD. How does it work?

lostintipp

History Queen wrote: »

No. Again you aren't dealing in facts.

What facts am I wrong about now?

Am I completely wrong about there being 60000 leaving cert students?

Am I completely wrong about the situation being no fault if their own? Maybe they are somehow to blame?

Or am I wrong about them missing 5 months of education when you yourself said that online teaching was not equivalent to classroom teaching?

deiseindublin

@lostintipp - I'm baffled reading your defense of Norma and co.

Do you really think zero contingency planning since last March was adequate?
You reckon the plan to keep the head down and hope for the best was up to scratch in this day and age?

I'm really glad Trade and retail didn't take the same approach to Brexit.

monkeybutter

Warbeastrior wrote: »

I have but my point was to discredit a false sweeping statement.

its hard to do that with hearsay some students hardly need schooling in the first place do most of it on their own so no doubt will thrive with less input

amacca

Widdensushi wrote: »

You think other people should get the balls taxed off them to pay your primary income but would prefer cash for grinds for any extra work?

No I was responding to a poster who suggested that the reason unions/teachers want the LC to go ahead is because they will miss out on income if they do. That was fairly clear from my original post as I quoted the poster in question. But as you would like to project and want to engage on this....

I think the idea is just another in a long line of ablsolute bolox spouted by the usual outrage jockeys on social media and happily swallowed by a surprisigly large number of people who simply wont put in the time to dig a little deeper and prefer to get their "news" in a form that doesnt challenge any of their personal bias in whatever comforting echochamber they frequent.

For the record I when I was teaching I very rarely gave grinds as it wasnt worth it to me personally, I was usually tired dealing with challenging behaviour all day long in an environment where everyone has a right to something but in no way do they have any responsibilities. What usually happened was I felt obliged to do it because a colleague wanted help for their kid in an area they were struggling with and I felt I couldnt say no. I definitely didnt go looking for it. Again not worth the hassle, I didnt want people in my house (for a number of reasons) and I live in a fairly rural area so that means travel so fuel expense and wear and tear on a vehicle and the extra time to travel to and from I'd have to charge a good bit to make it worthwhile etc etc.....I felt I'd be better off doing other things not the least of which would be getting some headspace and rest.

And if you want to know what I'd rather do than correct for extra work, I'd honestly rather work in Spar or a Credit union or something like that.....set hours, when its over its over and much better hourly pay when you consider the time put into it......correcting is one of the most tedious, time consuming and poorly paid jobs I've ever done all considered and I've worked a lot of jobs in addition to teaching from renting videos to running sales departments to telling high net worth individuals how much more money they were worth this week after decding what to buy and sell in the fund they were invested in.

Although I'd probably rather correct than pick mushrooms!

History Queen

lostintipp wrote: »

Or am I wrong about them missing 5 months of education when you yourself said that online teaching was not equivalent to classroom teaching?

Yes you are wrong about the above. Teaching remotely isn't the equivalent to class teaching for lots of reasons but it isn't the same as saying 60000 students missed 5 months of education. The fact that you can't understand or won't acknowledge that you are making sweeping statements is ridiculous. I have said my piece you can accept it or not.

lostintipp

deiseindublin wrote: »

@lostintipp - I'm baffled reading your defense of Norma and co.

Do you really think zero contingency planning was adequate?
You reckon the plan to keep the head down and hope for the best best was up to scratch in this day and age?

I'm really glad Trade and retail didn't take the same approach to Brexit.

I am not defending Norma and co. and I agree it doesn't look like this has been planned well especially when it was obvious last May that this years leaving cert class was already in trouble due to the amount of in classroom teaching they had missed.

deiseindublin

Widdensushi wrote: »

You think other people should get the balls taxed off them to pay your primary income but would prefer cash for grinds for any extra work?

the poster never said that. They were pointing out how unattractive a gig correcting is, and not enough people apply. Grinds weren't even mentioned?

Talk about making stuff up to suit the chip on your shoulder.

lostintipp

History Queen wrote: »

Yes you are wrong about the above. Teaching remotely isn't the equivalent to class teaching for lots of reasons but it isn't the same as saying 60000 students missed 5 months of education. The fact that you can't understand or won't acknowledge that you are making sweeping statements is ridiculous. I have said my piece you can accept it or not.

I am not bashing the teachers here at all, I have one in leaving cert and one in junior cert and I can hear for myself what teachers are engaged and what ones are not, and for the most part it looks to me the teachers are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

But I don't think there are many people who could sit at a computer monitor day in and day out and truly learn, this class have been expected to do that for 5 months, which is a huge portion of their leaving cert cycle and my own personal opinion would be that it would be downright cruel to try and examine them on what they may have managed to learn in this time.

wirelessdude01

lostintipp wrote: »

I know, but I think it is fair to say that for most students they need to be in school to learn

God help them when they start an apprenticeship, go to college or join the workforce after the end of this school year. No one will be holding their hand then.

deiseindublin

lostintipp wrote: »

I am not defending Norma and co. and I agree it doesn't look like this has been planned well especially when it was obvious last May that this years leaving cert class was already in trouble due to the amount of in classroom teaching they had missed.

but it wasnt even planned badly.

You saying 'not well planned' implied something was actually done. The only decision I can see that was made, but not released, was the decision not to appoint examination personnel as they normally do, effectively diminishing the chance of this LC cohort getting a fair crack at exams and practicals etc.

Also, your original post said 'in fairness to this government' implying you thought criticism of them was unjustified? And then you say it changed too quick for them? Really? Parents, teachers, principals, and unions have been trying to plan for contingencies all year but are met with the "schools have superpowers and are safe" mantra.

Your very, last line then says unions are the ones throwing them under a bus? That's some twist on the facts considering SEC and DES did zero planning and recruitment.

It's actually baffling to read how this whole ****fest can be spun and believed by people without questioning.

lostintipp wrote: »

To be fair this government did try their best to drive on and keep the schools open this school year and had they managed to do this they would probably have got away with holding a traditional leaving cert.

Unfortunately the virus changed and the situation deteriorated probably a lot quicker than they expected.

But please remember the government did try to keep the 60000 leaving cert students in school but the unions would not even entertain the matter.

So now we are left with a situation were 60000 young people through no fault of their own have now missed over 5 months teaching in their leaving cert cycle, this claims the union makes it impossible for their members to provide accurate predictive grades (which is probably true) but somehow its ok to send these kids off half prepared into a traditional leaving cert....talk about throwing the kids under a bus.

PoolDude

History Queen wrote: »

Yes you are wrong about the above. Teaching remotely isn't the equivalent to class teaching for lots of reasons but it isn't the same as saying 60000 students missed 5 months of education. The fact that you can't understand or won't acknowledge that you are making sweeping statements is ridiculous. I have said my piece you can accept it or not.

Completely agree. Look most teachers and students are making the best out of a bad situation. My frustration would be with the Minister and the Unions, the conflicting viewpoints not being properly addressed and the lack of planning by the department.

History Queen

lostintipp wrote: »

I am not bashing the teachers here at all, I have one in leaving cert and one in junior cert and I can hear for myself what teachers are engaged and what ones are not, and for the most part it looks to me the teachers are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

But I don't think there are many people who could sit at a computer monitor day in and day out and truly learn, this class have been expected to do that for 5 months, which is a huge portion of their leaving cert cycle and my own personal opinion would be that it would be downright cruel to try and examine them on what they may have managed to learn in this time.

By suggesting that 60000 students had no education for 5 months you are doing exactly that, however, I accept that wasn't your intention. Regarding the written exams the papers have had adjustments made to make assessmnet fair, I understand that for some subjects the adjustments have not been adequate and do think futher adjustments should be made in consultation with subject associations. Also projects, practicals and orals are an issue that need to be resolved.

(This part is not directed at you lostintipp, just in general at those who are frustrated with the unions).Teachers want the best for our students. As we do every year. Remember we prepare students for exams every year and know what is and isn't possible more so than the students (in that this is their first leaving cert cycle), we go through the process every year. What possible motivation could they (unions and teachers)have for wanting a detrimental outcome for our students?

Mrsmum

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

God help them when they start an apprenticeship, go to college or join the workforce after the end of this school year. No one will be holding their hand then.

No one is holding their hands now. And there is a reason why most full time college courses are run through an attending college system and why most people choose that over doing degrees etc remotely. Generally online courses tend to be part time or at your own timeline. Also most jobs or apprenticeships are not remote either. So unless this pandemic is never going to end, I fail to see the relevance of your comment. For the record, when they are out in the 'real world' they will probably moan as much or as little as people do every day on this site and everywhere.

Warbeastrior

Mrsmum wrote:

No one is holding their hands now. And there is a reason why most full time college courses are run through an attending college system and why most people choose that over doing degrees etc remotely. Generally online courses tend to be part time or at your own timeline. Also most jobs or apprenticeships are not remote either. So unless this pandemic is never going to end, I fail to see the relevance of your comment. For the record, when they are out in the 'real world' they will probably moan as much or as little as people do every day on this site and everywhere.

But in college, these students wouldn't get the help that they are getting now.
It may not be in person but it is still more so than they will be getting at a regular third level course.

billy_beckham

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

God help them when they start an apprenticeship, go to college or join the workforce after the end of this school year. No one will be holding their hand then.

Depends on your definition of hand holding?

Apprentices attend college and work along side an experienced tradesperson while they are serving their time.

College students attend lectures and can interact with their lecturers...

And anyone starting any kind of a job gets shown the ropes by someone....

Show a little compassion dude...the kids are struggling..

billy_beckham

Warbeastrior wrote: »

But in college, these students wouldn't get the help that they are getting now.
It may not be in person but it is still more so than they will be getting at a regular third level course.

I presume you've seen the various comments re the level of "help" some are experiencing?

6th years would obviously be more mature and better able maybe to handle the current setup, but for the rest of the students, they miss actually being in school..

Warbeastrior

billy_beckham wrote:

I presume you've seen the various comments re the level of "help" some are experiencing?

Well that's an individual thing that needs to be addressed with their school. If they aren't getting much help from home then im guessing the help they get in a school setting wouldn't be much better. A good teacher in a school setting will find a way to deliver good work remotely.

billy_beckham wrote:

6th years would obviously be more mature and better able maybe to handle the current setup, but for the rest of the students, they miss actually being in school..

The rest as in other year groups? Well true but aren't we talking about leaving cert here?

Also, people seem to forget we're in a global pandemic. The way people talk, you would swear school staff just upped and went on strike for some trivial matter.

Mrsmum

Warbeastrior wrote: »

But in college, these students wouldn't get the help that they are getting now.
It may not be in person but it is still more so than they will be getting at a regular third level course.

School is school and college is college. Their differences are distinct and there to be respected. I don't see the point of comparing them. It is as invalid to my mind as saying to
a teacherr - if you were a nurse now, you wouldn't be accommodated at home or some such nonsense.
But also I'm wondering what is this special help you speak about. College students are getting zoom lectures and other supports/ interaction with staff same as LC students are. My son is actually taking an extra subject outside of school and there is no difference between that subject and his other subjects at the moment.

TTLF

Mrsmum wrote: »

As an aside to the LC debacle, can I ask if it is reasonable for a student to expect assignments from teachers to be corrected and returned in a timely manner or indeed at all. Was chatting to my son yesterday and he says - teachers tell us that it is disrespectful not to return work on time but I always do and how is it not disrespectful of them not to return corrected work for three weeks often and sometimes not at all. Because - says he - by the time the work is returned, I am concentrating on current work, haven't time to go back, and the learning opportunity is less than it could be. - This is various teachers. When they ask for their work, the answer is you'll get it when you get it kind of thing. Curious if this is common ?

I have this problem too. Teacher are returning my work, but we've moved a good bit on before it's returned to me, for example in German we're prepping oral questions and they're returned 4-5 days later corrected, but by then I'm already onto the new oral topic of "school" lets say, answering those questions and trying to get them corrected, so I never really have time to learn from previous where I went wrong and how I can fully nail it in the bud. Same goes for Geography, we're going through the chapters somewhat quickly and we "finished" the course the other day, but all the homework I have sent in hasn't gotten much feedback or if it has, it's just a generic "good job, work well done" to my short questions or long. I understand teachers can't physically correct it, but I would love a more idealistic way of promoting real feedback, although not every student feels that way, or probably cares. Irish is another example, we're doing class tests weekly and I'm getting my results over a week 1/2 later or longer and by then we've moved onto another poem or short story etc.

Of course, this isn't all my teachers, some do return the work diligently and quickly like my English or Maths teacher, who seem to really prioritise 6th years. We're expected to have our work in on time, but I can never expect to know when corrections are made and will be handed back. Sometimes, the teacher says she's going to put something up, and then they forget, so it's just an evening wasted because I couldn't do the topics work the day we got it.

I, of course however, understand teachers do have lives, other classes and more like minding their kids to deal with, so I can forgive them for not handing it back between 2-3 days, but a week 1/2 or longer isn't really acceptable for 6th yrs who are supposed to be "prioritised."

Tell your son he's not alone MrsMum, If I would say any advice, tell him to ask them to put up slide shows and notes to the topic on classroom or teams (whichever they use.) I've been doing this for OL maths, Business and Geography so I can essentially teach myself the work and correct it. It can come in handy when you yourself recognise where you go wrong and can fix it, even if it's more work.

Although also tell him to enjoy the midterm break, because we really need it with the last 7 weeks of ups, downs, and 0 clarification for weeks on end.

Hope that helped a little, and any questions from a student's Point of view I'll be happy to answer.

BiggJim

Sometimes I think the current situation would have benefited me as an LC student. I like the idea of having some level of autonomy over my own work. I still scored 570 in the leaving cert mind you.

Warbeastrior

Mrsmum wrote:

School is school and college is college. Their differences are distinct and there to be respected. I don't see the point of comparing them. It is as invalid to my mind as saying to a teacherr - if you were a nurse now, you wouldn't be accommodated at home or some such nonsense. But also I'm wondering what is this special help you speak about. College students are getting zoom lectures and other supports/ interaction with staff same as LC students are. My son is actually taking an extra subject outside of school and there is no difference between that subject and his other subjects at the moment.

But the point was that in-person lectures are not the same as remote teaching for leaving certs.
Some lectures are set up with nearly a hundred people in them with very little chance to engage with a lecturer unless you email them and wait for their reply.

Of course leaving certs are not in college and deserve the teacher-student experience rather than the lecturer-student one but I understand the point the original poster made about the current leaving cert set up not being too dissimilar to a regular college experience.

Warbeastrior

BiggJim wrote:

Sometimes I think the current situation would have benefited me as an LC student. I like the idea of having some level of autonomy over my own work. I still scored 570 in the leaving cert mind you.

You just wanted to post something to let us know you got 570 points.

Admit it!!!

Mrsmum

Warbeastrior wrote: »

But the point was that in-person lectures are not the same as remote teaching for leaving certs.
Some lectures are set up with nearly a hundred people in them with very little chance to engage with a lecturer unless you email them and wait for their reply.

Of course leaving certs are not in college and deserve the teacher-student experience rather than the lecturer-student one but I understand the point the original poster made about the current leaving cert set up not being too dissimilar to a regular college experience.

But it's like people want to compare the LC students unfavourable all the time with college students, to just throw (unfair imo) digs eg they want their hands held etc yet if say one was to say let's do open book exams, as they do in college, it's then immediately oh no that would be cheating for LC students. My point is they are not comparable in the first place.