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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Comments

  • #202
    Asus1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Asus1


    One of the biggest problems re shooting and how it is viewed by the wider public is that it is only heard of when some sh1tehead goes and starts shooting raptors for god only knows why.
    It will be on radio and news and it's near impossible to get people to believe that it's only the local dope doing it and it's not looked on as normal or ok by 99.9% of firearm owners.
    Also there is no point in trying to convince people shooting Foxes is needed it's doomed to failure and no amount of facts and figures re shooting for conservation of ground nesting birds will convert them.Fox are too fecking cute and furry for people to agree on controlling them,and as someone who shoots a few each year I'm always slightly sad when I walk up on a shot fox in their full orange/red coat as they are a beautiful animal.
    Sadly I think that unless you own land and have a herd number or are a member of a range the days of people getting firearms to walk around a few farmers fields and take some game will be a thing of the past in maybe a decade.
    Most people's view of guns is an Americanised version which is so far from our situation it's a meaningless comparison.


  • #203
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭badaj0z


    GooseB wrote: »
    Sorry, don't know about the centrefire stuff. I think I saw a full bore silhouette pig hanging up at the clubhouse at MNSCI....maybe..possibly

    You did. It was part of a full set of Centre fire Silhouette targets which were used at MNSCI for a short time.


  • #204
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Asus1 wrote: »
    One of the biggest problems re shooting and how it is viewed by the wider public is that it is only heard of when some sh1tehead goes and starts shooting raptors for god only knows why..

    Exactly.

    A pro-active approach is needed, not reactive.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • #205
    dto001
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭dto001


    With all the conservation things that clubs do this should be promoted. And clubs should document all the good they do and the various groups (nargc etc) shout promoted it.
    There should also be something like what, I think, the BASC do in the uk and visit schools and show what it’s all about.
    The problem is with all the ideas that have come up here how do we implement them?


  • #206
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    dto001 wrote: »
    With all the conservation things that clubs do this should be promoted. And clubs should document all the good they do and the various groups (nargc etc) shout promoted it.
    There should also be something like what, I think, the BASC do in the uk and visit schools and show what it’s all about.
    The problem is with all the ideas that have come up here how do we implement them?

    FIK NARGC was doing a schools programme to counter ICABS a few years back? Dunno were both orgs then removed from the classrooms as being indoctrination?

    Yes indeed doing things on a club level and getting shooting orgs to post about them is a good thing, but we have to be prepared for the emotive and irrational counter wails.

    A stronger social media presence on YT would be a good start for Irish shooting.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #207
    Munsterlad102
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    A stronger social media presence on YT would be a good start for Irish shooting.

    Yeah I agree, there's already a channel about hunting so there's definitely a need for a target shooting channel. I'd say that target shooting is the most likely victim of further restrictions and legislation, so I'd say that's the best place to start. Now is the perfect time to get set up, with restrictions we have more time and the like. So is anyone interested?


  • #208
    dto001
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭dto001


    How would you start something like that? Do you just fire up videos? I think that it should be done as a whole , target shooting, hunting, Fishing, ferreting, greyhounds, fox hunting, falconry, etc all together in one to show we are basically one. United we stand!!

    Also there’s a lot of the irrational stuff as Grizzly says but it has to be countered with the good we do?

    In respect to the clubs they also have to get away from the parish mentality and work together between them. Club membership is too small now a days not too.


  • #209
    alan0387
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alan0387


    dto001 wrote: »
    How would you start something like that? Do you just fire up videos? I think that it should be done as a whole , target shooting, hunting, Fishing, ferreting, greyhounds, fox hunting, falconry, etc all together in one to show we are basically one. United we stand!!

    Also there’s a lot of the irrational stuff as Grizzly says but it has to be countered with the good we do?

    In respect to the clubs they also have to get away from the parish mentality and work together between them. Club membership is too small now a days not too.

    That would be great, an Irish target shooting channel. Could have visits to different ranges, showcase different ranges and some of the shooters there.

    Maybe in an effort to get rid of that 'parish mentality' friendly club v club comps for the channel would be good? The Rona has ruined a lot of these opportunities for now though.


  • #210
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    dto001 wrote: »
    How would you start something like that? Do you just fire up videos? I think that it should be done as a whole , target shooting, hunting, Fishing, ferreting, greyhounds, fox hunting, falconry, etc all together in one to show we are basically one. United we stand!!

    Also there’s a lot of the irrational stuff as Grizzly says but it has to be countered with the good we do?

    In respect to the clubs they also have to get away from the parish mentality and work together between them. Club membership is too small now a days not too.

    I would think its needs to be far more professional than that, a proper trained Public relations person, be very careful whats put up, present it properly etc. The only well done videos of Irish shooting i see done are those done By Jason Doyle, and thats on an English channel.


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  • #211
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    dto001 wrote: »
    How would you start something like that? Do you just fire up videos? I think that it should be done as a whole , target shooting, hunting, Fishing, ferreting, greyhounds, fox hunting, falconry, etc all together in one to show we are basically one. United we stand!!

    Also there’s a lot of the irrational stuff as Grizzly says but it has to be countered with the good we do?

    In respect to the clubs they also have to get away from the parish mentality and work together between them. Club membership is too small now a days not too.

    I still can't fathom how target shooting, either clays or paper have anything to do with hunting.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #212
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Apart with both of them being concerned with gun ownership...Or do you men fox hunting with horse&hound? :confused:"Hunting" by itself can mean either around here.

    Setting up a YT channel isn't the hardest either. If you have an acc , click on Creator academy in My Youtube dropdown box and there are a whole bunch of vids on setting up a channel.

    Your trouble,I think will be filling it with relevant content here in Ireland if it is just wholly shooting sport related.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #213
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    I was referring to hunting with a gun, I should have stated that above. Yes target shooters and hunters are both concerned with gun ownership. And gun ownership is a lifestyle choice, I believe we have established this here. However I think it's fair to say that being anti bloodsport is an ideological choice. You could potentially have a lot of target shooters vehemently against hunting with a gun.
    I'm probably talking about a very small group now that I think about it further, most of us came into shooting due to coming from a house with a gun, which back in the day pretty much meant hunting. I'm falling into the position of being a bit of a pedant so I'll not labour the point further.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #214
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    Cass wrote: »
    First off, and i must stress, this is NOT a political thread nor debate. The Off Topic thread is the place for that.

    This is an opinion and suggestion thread.

    With the seemingly never-ending and increased "attacks" on all shooting sports, not just here at home, but globally are we on the loosing end of a very long battle or is there hope for the sport?

    Between gun bans, mag bans, social media bans on free speech of hunting, the lead ban, and of course public opinion is the sport looking at a slow death of a thousand cuts?

    If so what can we do to try stop it and even turn it around.

    If not then what can be done to increase the population of the shooting community and finally shed ourselves of the "secrecy" our sport is sometimes forced to implement.

    Too many fiefdoms and pleasing others in their respective sections of the sport, and too many ratholes for money to disappear down for those who are trusted for a short time and are actually using it to stab old enemies in the back.
    You look at something being successful from a group point of view politically then look outside Ireland.
    Then think of how to implement it with most of the dumb yokles in the shooting sports in Ireland and watch your faith in people ebb away.

    Just go stick your hand in the fire, it will be less painful and time wasting.
    Ive said it before lobby your local TD on an individual basis if you have a problem.
    The rest, a pipe dream and a waste of time


  • #215
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    Feisar wrote: »
    I was referring to hunting with a gun, I should have stated that above. Yes target shooters and hunters are both concerned with gun ownership. And gun ownership is a lifestyle choice, I believe we have established this here. However I think it's fair to say that being anti bloodsport is an ideological choice. You could potentially have a lot of target shooters vehemently against hunting with a gun.
    I'm probably talking about a very small group now that I think about it further, most of us came into shooting due to coming from a house with a gun, which back in the day pretty much meant hunting. I'm falling into the position of being a bit of a pedant so I'll not labour the point further.

    Most if not all of the target shooters I know are pro gun and anything to do with it, Regardless of if its used for hunting or not, and smart enough to know, with some exceptions that if you infringe on the rights of one group, how soon before it catches up with your group.

    No idea where u got the idea in your head that Target shooters are "anti - bloodsport", if its currently legally in Ireland, it wont be a target shooter, threatening to ban it. They may not like it bit most are smart enough to not rock the boat, but there is always one right.


  • #216
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭badaj0z


    https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/products/dedicated-hunting/rimfire/norma-eco/norma-eco-speed-22?fbclid=IwAR3y_Pg9M6AJFbZH8gUDNX7BjMIfEXClYhcpfJ7eif2xLDocmaYRutZwUSQ


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  • #217
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    jb88 wrote: »
    Most if not all of the target shooters I know are pro gun and anything to do with it, Regardless of if its used for hunting or not, and smart enough to know, with some exceptions that if you infringe on the rights of one group, how soon before it catches up with your group.

    No idea where u got the idea in your head that Target shooters are "anti - bloodsport", if its currently legally in Ireland, it wont be a target shooter, threatening to ban it. They may not like it bit most are smart enough to not rock the boat, but there is always one right.

    I'm not saying target shooters are automatically any bloodsport. Just that gun ownership does not equal pro bloodsport.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #218
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Lets put the words "blood sport" in the category of "weapons" terminology shall we?
    It's an emotive term used by antis and is a blanket term to describe anything they disagree with. Hunting whether by H&H or shooting is a field sport.
    Same as we should define hunting as either with horse and hound or gun.Would save a lot of confusion?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #219
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    badaj0z wrote: »
    https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/products/dedicated-hunting/rimfire/norma-eco/norma-eco-speed-22?fbclid=IwAR3y_Pg9M6AJFbZH8gUDNX7BjMIfEXClYhcpfJ7eif2xLDocmaYRutZwUSQ

    I wonder what it's like for price and accuracy.

    It's a high velocity round and I find that they tend to be the most inaccurate of the .22lr rounds.


  • #220
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭badaj0z


    Agreed. I anticipate a low velocity version could follow. I expect that we will see more and more non lead bullets as the EU menace develops. Maybe some manufacturer will introduce plastic bullets with depleted Uranium cores, like the A10(Warthog) ammunition. That would get them excited.


  • #221
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    badaj0z wrote: »
    Agreed. I anticipate a low velocity version could follow. I expect that we will see more and more non lead bullets as the EU menace develops. Maybe some manufacturer will introduce plastic bullets with depleted Uranium cores, like the A10(Warthog) ammunition. That would get them excited.

    The funny thing is that many of the lead substitutes are bad for the environment too.

    I wonder when we'll all have to rip the flashing off our houses or dig up all the lead water pipes? My guess is that because they aren't anything to do with guns, it'll never happen.


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  • #222
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    The funny thing is that many of the lead substitutes are bad for the environment too.

    I wonder when we'll all have to rip the flashing off our houses or dig up all the lead water pipes? My guess is that because they aren't anything to do with guns, it'll never happen.

    Its nothing to do with the environment, its just a way at making life more difficult for gun-owners and shooters. How many billions of rounds of lead ammo were fired during the Napoleonic wars, the Balkan wars, The crimean wars, The first world war, the second world war ?

    There is a rough estimate that 80-100 billion rounds were made during ww2 alone, the Americans made over 45 billion. The British its reckoned fired 6 million rounds a day during ww1, 8 billion rounds a year or something like that.


  • #223
    Munsterlad102
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    tudderone wrote: »
    Its nothing to do with the environment, its just a way at making life more difficult for gun-owners and shooters. How many billions of rounds of lead ammo were fired during the Napoleonic wars, the Balkan wars, The crimean wars, The first world war, the second world war ?

    There is a rough estimate that 80-100 billion rounds were made during ww2 alone, the Americans made over 45 billion. The British its reckoned fired 6 million rounds a day during ww1, 8 billion rounds a year or something like that.

    Yeah exactly, I read somewhere that the Americans used 50,000 rounds for every German casualty so how many billions of rounds does that make?


  • #224
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Well from plastic ammo, you get plastic microbeads when it breaks down, which is reckoned to be the next big headache. Copper rounds ? Isn't copper poisonous to certain trees, or maybe all trees ?


  • #225
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    The funny thing is that many of the lead substitutes are bad for the environment too.

    I wonder when we'll all have to rip the flashing off our houses or dig up all the lead water pipes? My guess is that because they aren't anything to do with guns, it'll never happen.

    Did notice that military,LE and "security forces" are of course exempt from this legislation? Maybe we should be asking WHY are they exempt from this??? I've yet to see an explanation on this one and it seems no one is asking either?
    Is it to do with the fact their training grounds are absolute total and utter lead waste dumps around the EU...Or somthing else??

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #226
    GooseB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭GooseB


    Did notice that military,LE and "security forces" are of course exempt from this legislation?

    I read that in the EU there are 1,400,000 tonnes of lead products made annually. Of that, 50,00 tonnes are for ammunition. Looked at another way, 1,350,000 tonnes of lead have nothing to do with shooting.

    Of the 50,000 tonnes related to ammunition, 10,000 to 15,000 tonnes are for shooting sports. So 70% to 80% by mass of all lead based ammunition in the EU is accounted for by non sporting uses - in other words the military and probably a very small amount law enforcement and others. (Provided the source of the information is correct)

    Source: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/Ban-of-lead-in-ammunition-the-position-of-ISSF/


  • #227
    alan0387
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alan0387


    Those are some interesting figures if correct. Shows quite clearly the negative bias against shooting within Europe as a whole.


  • #228
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Hi,

    I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.

    While I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, you have to admire their ability to influence US politics. We could learn a few tricks from them, be it in terms of lobbying, or kicking a politicans ass, when needed.

    There's a fundamental problem in Ireland, and that's our inability to cop on, and work togeather, for the common good. Instead, we look for the first opportunity to start squabbling, have a few arguements, then break away into small splinter groups, never to be seen again. Every time we start that nonsense, we literally shoot ourselves in the foot, and yet, we don't seem capable of overcoming the problem.

    Just imagine the political influence that a combination of groups like the IFA, Hunters, Target Shooters, NARGC, Fishermen etc could exert, at an election. Those groups and others have so much in common, if they'd only agree a set of common objectives, and focus on them. They can still go and do their own thing, on other unrelated issues.

    Putting aside the voting influence that a combined group of those and other interests could have, think about the commercial influence - be it the ability to fund raise, promote positive messages to the general public, invest in training and education for topics of interest, negotiate discounts from large corporates etc.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #229
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    On a different note, why not take a look at how we do things, here on Boards?

    For a start - why aren't the Hunters, and the Target Shooters, all working togeather, when there's a call for people to lobby their EU Ministers, or local TDs, on an issue, for example?

    The are members who are only interested in target shooting, or hunting, so don't visit the other forums, and probably aren't even aware that someone is calling for support, from fellow shooters.

    Could we mirror occasional messages across the forums, to ensure that more people see them - rather than just the Target Shooters, or Hunters ?

    Could we consider putting a mailing list togeather, perhaps entrusting the Mods with our personal email addresses, so they could do a mailshot to everyone, when a topic needs to be highlighted, or there's a call to action?

    Could we begin to form our own "club",
    group or association - setting out some basic principals and just focusing on them?

    There are things that everyone here could probably do for someone else - help a shooter job a hunting club, or invite a newbie to their target club, to show them around and maybe take them through a few of the basics, perhaps give someone a little specialist training, if you happen to be particularly good at a certain discipline etc etc.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #230
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    You must be joking. Anytime anything is mooted, like the handgun ban years ago, there were other vested interests quite happy to see pistol shooters chucked under the bus if it meant they could save their own necks so to speak. Then we had SCOVI doing sneaky runs to anyone in government who would listen, with outrageous suggestions, so long as they could control things and make a few bob under the table.


  • #231
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    garrettod wrote: »
    Hi,

    I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.

    While I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, you have to admire their ability to influence US politics. We could learn a few tricks from them, be it in terms of lobbying, or kicking a politicans ass, when needed.

    There's a fundamental problem in Ireland, and that's our inability to cop on, and work togeather, for the common good. Instead, we look for the first opportunity to start squabbling, have a few arguements, then break away into small splinter groups, never to be seen again. Every time we start that nonsense, we literally shoot ourselves in the foot, and yet, we don't seem capable of overcoming the problem.

    Just imagine the political influence that a combination of groups like the IFA, Hunters, Target Shooters, NARGC, Fishermen etc could exert, at an election. Those groups and others have so much in common, if they'd only agree a set of common objectives, and focus on them. They can still go and do their own thing, on other unrelated issues.

    Putting aside the voting influence that a combined group of those and other interests could have, think about the commercial influence - be it the ability to fund raise, promote positive messages to the general public, invest in training and education for topics of interest, negotiate discounts from large corporates etc.

    While I agree it'd be great it's too high a goal here. Yer talking about pulling us out from our tribal parish pump politics and turn us into single issue voters. Thankfully in ways, were aren't polarized like that here compared with the States. Plus how many people are more than just casual shooters? Like the amount of licences in the State get trotted out however how many of them are dying to get out for a shot at the moment be it fur, feather, clay or paper?

    Edit - look at the uptake in Ireland on the survey on the lead ban for an example of interest.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • #232
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    garrettod wrote: »
    Hi,

    I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.
    While I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, you have to admire their ability to influence US politics. We could learn a few tricks from them, be it in terms of lobbying, or kicking a politicans ass, when needed.

    The NRA's secret is and is grudgingly admired in DC is its dedicated grassroots system of lobbying. Compared to the big lobby groups of pharma, oil, tobacco and the auto industry the NRA is in the penny-ante league in political donations.
    IOW if there is a call to lobby some bill and senators.it happens, people ring, email and write and pitch up to lobby whomever.
    Americans have a different idea to be engaged in issues than we have here,as can be witnessed in Virginia last year when literally people showed up from every state, some from the other side of the continent to protest Gov Blackface Northam's gun ban.
    Not only that they have realised a long time ago, that you are a gun owner first, and that this is under continuous threat by various anti groups despite it being a fundamental right. You are a hunter, target shooter, whatever always second, third and all the way down the line.

    We OTOH can't seem to realise this fact for some reason and continuously will throw another minority to the wolves in the hope they will be full by the time they reach our particular shooting sport.

    You are asking for an impossibility here going by previous attempts here. Even when it would cost people literally nothing to do bar send a pre-printed email or add their signature to a petition
    Here,if we called a protest in Dublin,and even laid on busses or free lifts to get some to go,the attitude would still be "Meh couldn't be arsed!":(
    Either it is bred out of us,or we are just the laziest shower of people we just don't do protest or cohesion,or common cause here for some reason.

    Just imagine the political influence that a combination of groups like the IFA, Hunters, Target Shooters, NARGC, Fishermen etc could exert, at an election. Those groups and others have so much in common, if they'd only agree a set of common objectives, and focus on them. They can still go and do their own thing, on other unrelated issues.

    We had that,it was called the Sports Collation. Worked until money and egotism and king-making destroyed it

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #233
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭badaj0z


    It still exists, there have been significant changes in people involved, and it is still the only body representing shooters which is recognised by the DOJ and Gardai. Maybe we should work with what we have?


  • #234
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    On operation transformation there one of the people doing it, her husband and son were shown going out after pheasants. It was just a quick clip but nicely done I thought.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #235
    alan0387
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alan0387


    I am currently listening to Vortex Optics podcast via Castbox app. Slowly making my way through various subjects from 10 minute talks on different calipers to hour long .22lr or x4 hour long episodes on elr.

    Halfway through episode 125, from May 2020 entitled,
    'Get the Lead out, Keep it in.... or a little bit of both'

    Interesting conversation and mentions the use of the term Toxic Ammunition and why its misleading when surveying shooters in the states about Lead ammo.

    As I said I have not finished this episode yet so I can't give a summary just yet!

    https://castbox.fm/vb/267903902


  • #236
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    garrettod wrote: »
    Hi,

    I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.



    The NRA's secret is and is grudgingly admired in DC is its dedicated grassroots system of lobbying. Compared to the big lobby groups of pharma, oil, tobacco and the auto industry the NRA is in the penny-ante league in political donations.
    IOW if there is a call to lobby some bill and senators.it happens, people ring, email and write and pitch up to lobby whomever.
    Americans have a different idea to be engaged in issues than we have here,as can be witnessed in Virginia last year when literally people showed up from every state, some from the other side of the continent to protest Gov Blackface Northam's gun ban.
    Not only that they have realised a long time ago, that you are a gun owner first, and that this is under continuous threat by various anti groups despite it being a fundamental right. You are a hunter, target shooter, whatever always second, third and all the way down the line.

    We OTOH can't seem to realise this fact for some reason and continuously will throw another minority to the wolves in the hope they will be full by the time they reach our particular shooting sport.

    You are asking for an impossibility here going by previous attempts here. Even when it would cost people literally nothing to do bar send a pre-printed email or add their signature to a petition
    Here,if we called a protest in Dublin,and even laid on busses or free lifts to get some to go,the attitude would still be "Meh couldn't be arsed!":(
    Either it is bred out of us,or we are just the laziest shower of people we just don't do protest or cohesion,or common cause here for some reason.




    We had that,it was called the Sports Collation. Worked until money and egotism and king-making destroyed it

    I believe the sports coalition is still going strong, least we forget that the last achievment was to discuss/negotiate make representation on behalf of Target shooters to allow for the substitution of centrefire pistols, most folks had them from before 2008 and in 2020 probably could do with a change, the work done by the SC ensured that this could happen, how do I know I was one of the individuals who benefited from the change in attitude of AGS and I sucessfully substituted my pistol!
    I take my hat off to them, something tangible achieved that benefits target shooters directly!!


  • #237
    solarwinds
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    smmember20 wrote: »

    I believe the sports coalition is still going strong, least we forget that the last achievment was to discuss/negotiate make representation on behalf of Target shooters to allow for the substitution of centrefire pistols, most folks had them from before 2008 and in 2020 probably could do with a change, the work done by the SC ensured that this could happen, how do I know I was one of the individuals who benefited from the change in attitude of AGS and I sucessfully substituted my pistol!
    I take my hat off to them, something tangible achieved that benefits target shooters directly!!

    Sorry what, Yes I believe you can sub a C.f. pistol but come your renewal it has to be subbed back to your original C.f. pistol for the renewal to be processed. As otherwise it is a new licence with a different serial number. I fail to see how this is an advantage as you have to own 2 pistols only 1 of which you can licence.
    The only thing that would have benefited shooters would be the subbing of licences without all the messing associated currently to do it.


  • #238
    alan0387
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alan0387


    My next post will be a draft of an email I am preparing to send to my local TD's and hopefully our MEP's regarding this lead ammo fiasco. Any input on changes to the email would be welcome and of course if anyone wants to copy/paste/modify for sending to your own TD's work away. This was written with my 3 year old on my lap interrupting me every 20 seconds so forgive me if some grammar, spelling or points are not right!!


  • #239
    alan0387
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alan0387


    First I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this email. I ask you read this with an open mind without prejudice or existing opinions regarding sport shooting.

    There is a proposal working its way throughout the EU currently regarding Lead used in ammunition for shotguns and rifles. It proposes a ban on the use of lead as a material in ammunition production. This is a complex and far reaching subject and I will try to contain an overview rather than going into too much detail in this particular mail.

    This has been seen amongst firearms owners, be they farmers, vermin/pest controllers, hunters and sport/target shooters (my particular association with firearm ownership) that this new proposed legislation is nothing more than a backdoor to further limit/reduce or eradicate firearms and their ownership from private citizens.

    This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to steel shot. This causes a multitude of problems. First, the vast majority of shotguns CANNOT be reproofed (essentially recertified) for steel shot. Only much newer, and far more expensive shotguns can be reproofed. This essentially outlaws and renders these shotguns useless. Secondly, there is no proof house in Ireland. It is based in the UK and opens up import and export problems on top of UK certifications not being valid within the EU due to Brexit. Even sending to a proof house within Europe is expensive and unrealistic.

    Rifle ammunition faces the problem from a different side. People who hunt will be greater versed than I in the effects of non lead ammunition. Required penetration, hydrostatic shock and expansion for clean humane kills on game is of vital importance and the cause for huge investment by ammunition manufacturers to ensure each of these properties is met. As a target shooter, lead provides a stable, predictable, efficient and ideal material to achieve the consistency, repeatability and deformation required to shoot accurately and safely. Lead will deform upon impact with a surface and has a much lower ricochet potential. The projectile material is also required to be softer than the barrel of the firearm to allow correct sealing, correct engagement with the rifling and reduce wear on the barrel to a minimum.

    Lead free ammunition is currently more expensive, harder to find, has vastly lower performance than traditional lead based ammunition.

    The current view of lead as a dangerous substance to human and wildlife health is set from the 90's and before. Lead used in fuel and paints was a different molecular makeup and far more 'bio-available' and easily absorbed than lead used in for example ammunition, weights and fishing equipment to name a few. Studies up to mid 1990 showed effects of lead in waterfowl, raptors and other wildlife. Conversely, once lead fuel, lead paints etc were outlawed, the result was vastly reduced lead poisoning and toxicity found in various wildlife.

    So I believe the environmental impact stated in the proposed legislation is outdated, wrongfully presented and deliberately misconstrued. Further to my point is the exception to lead ammo for Law Enforcement, Military and Security Forces.

    A recent survey within the EU found that 1,400,000 tonnes of lead products are produced in the EU each year. 50,000 tonnes are for ammunition. This means 1,350,000 tonnes of lead has nothing to do with shooting sports. Of that 50,000 tonnes, 10,000 to 15,000 tonnes are shooting sports. This means that 70-80%, by mass, of all lead based ammunition in the EU is accounted for by non-sporting uses, ie, military and law enforcement.

    These figures put the issue facing sports shooters into stark prospective. These measures are firearm control driven and not environmentally driven as the vast majority are led to believe.

    I would really appreciate a response on this subject, and I hope I can rely on you to relay the shooting sports communities concerns to MEP's and fellow TD's in the hope that this legislation does not pass. It will be a detriment to the shooting sports community.


  • #240
    GooseB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭GooseB


    These figures put the issue facing sports shooters into stark prospective.
    - "perspective" ?

    One thing I'd comment on is the mentioning of shotgun shot. The MEP's that just voted to ban lead shot over wetlands and no doubt only partially grasped what it was all about may say to themselves "what's this lad on about, sure we just voted and banned lead shotgun shot didn't we?" and completely miss that they haven't banned lead shot over non-wetlands - small as that land space is here in Ireland. Also maybe mention clay shooting as they're probably only thinking of hunting?
    This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to steel shot.
    I don't think it mentions a specific alternative, does it? Maybe reword to something along the lines of "This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to alternatives - such as steel shot" What do you think?

    Also, maybe mention that shooting ranges in their very essence contain all fired projectiles and the bullets are caught in the backstops/berms/bullet traps. ???


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  • #241
    alan0387
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭alan0387


    GooseB wrote: »
    Completely miss that they haven't banned lead shot over non-wetlands - small as that land space is here in Ireland.

    Yes good point, but that highlights what was discussed earlier about for example, .22 target shooters turning a blind eye to shotgun legislation thinking it won't affect them, and the firearms owners needing to stick together regardless of discipline.

    Also maybe mention clay shooting as they're probably only thinking of hunting?

    Yes I tried to encompass everyone under sports shooting but maybe I need to mention the different disciplines by name.


    I don't think it mentions a specific alternative, does it? Maybe reword to something along the lines of "This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to alternatives - such as steel shot" What do you think?

    I'd planned on going back over the proposal again before sending and making a summary to make sure I had my points spot on. Steel shot was mentioned on here but I like your wording there.

    Also, maybe mention that shooting ranges in their very essence contain all fired projectiles and the bullets are caught in the backstops/berms/bullet traps. ???

    Yes I had considered that too. It is an important point.

    Thanks thats the sort of input I'm looking for!


  • #242
    GooseB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭GooseB


    I'm going to write something up myself, just haven't gotten around to it but will be something similar to what you've written.

    I think standard letters/emails that are just copy paste jobs sent in from everyone just immediately get binned. I also think that the recipients on reading these just say to themselves - "they can't care much for their sport if they can't even be arsed to string a few of their own words together".

    The shotgunners I spoke to prior to the previous ban getting voted through were, to a man, unaware of even the ECHA proposal being made. Hadn't a clue. I'd say the vast majority of shooters at the moment are the same with the latest ban proposal.

    I wrote to the International Shooting Sports Federation (ISSF) and the European Shooting Confederation (ESC) during the week and asked them if they'd consider publishing something about this on their official websites and social media outlets just to spread the word around so shooters can be made aware. I also asked them if they'd contact their affiliated national bodies in each affected EU member state (eg: here it would be Target Shooting Ireland) and fill them in and ask them to spread the word via their own local website and social media. Basically a top down approach to spread the information, maybe get more people aware and angered into writing to their MEPs. I also asked why the ISSF hadn't offered any updates to this existential threat in the last 12 months, nothing....

    Sadly, no reply. They have their heads in the sand:(

    I don't know anything about hunting so maybe some hunters can contact their relevant bodies since they have a better grasp on it?

    Also, this ban is getting passed - no doubt about it. The MEP's are clueless on the issues, anything gun related to them is bad and they'll vote against it. Basically they'll vote in favour of what's put in front of them so they don't have to think too much about something they don't care about. I think the best we can hope for is to try and get certain derogations for particular issues entered into the final ECHA proposal that the MEP's just rubber stamp.

    Edit: This website hasn't been bad for reporting the lead ban related stuff - all4shooters.com. There's a virtual IWA Trade Fair being held next month - basically a hunting, target and outdoors trade show. The editorial team are there and in their article on the matter they stated "Do you have manufacturers or topics of particular interest to you, just drop us a line at info@all4shooters.com or our social media channels." I wrote in asking them to bring up the ECHA lead ban with anyone they can, arms makers, ammunition manufacturers, etc. along with a list of other lead related questions. Hopefully they get enough requesting them to ask lead ban related questions that they'll put some forward.

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/iwa-studio-edition-on-12-3-2021-the-innovative-online-event-for-the-firearms-industry/


  • #243
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    alan0387 wrote: »
    First I


    This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to steel shot. This causes a multitude of problems. First, the vast majority of shotguns CANNOT be reproofed (essentially recertified) for steel shot. Only much newer, and far more expensive shotguns can be reproofed. This essentially outlaws and renders these shotguns useless. Secondly, there is no proof house in Ireland. It is based in the UK and opens up import and export problems on top of UK certifications not being valid within the EU due to Brexit. Even sending to a proof house within Europe is expensive and unrealistic.

    Should add this...
    It is therefore incumbent and mandatory under EU legislation that the Irish Govt must provide this service to Irish gun owners and manufacturers of a proof house and facilities, as the UK is now no longer an EU member for Ireland to be equal with EU firearms legislation. The situation now is the equivalency of the Irish motorist having to travel to mainland Europe to acquire an NCT test to comply with EU legislation on safe and roadworthy vechicles. Even for those people who might wish to render a firearm deactivated to now mandatory EU standards of deactivation,it is impossible to do such in the current Irish situation and EU legislation.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #244
    solarwinds
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    I have always thought but I do not have the ability to write it coherently that the argument of non lead ammunition is not as effective is a lost argument.
    You can explain until you are blue in the face that your 100 year old SxS will not fire steel shot, the answer, "thats not my problem just buy one that can", but that is very expensive, "so what, if you want shoot there is your alternative".
    You can also explain that rifle ammo alternatives will not have the killing power, will not have the range and be more susceptible to ricochet, the answer there, "well if you cannot humanely dispatch your quarry then dont shoot, if your rifle cannot reach out to 1000yrds then just shoot at 500yrds".
    They are smart enough to say we are not stopping you from shooting as the argument is there are lead alternatives, whether they work or not is irrelevant to them, the option is there and that is all they care about.
    In my opinion the focus should be more on the figures like above which states that a small percentage of lead based ammo goes to civilian use of the thousands of tonnes of lead based products produced annually.
    If the basis of the argument is environmental protection then what if anything is being done to withdraw the remainder of lead based products from the market ?.
    As the largest consumer of lead based ammo what are the different countries militaries doing to seek alternatives, this would have the largest and quickest reduction of a countries lead footprint in ammo usage ?.
    This is a gun grab pure and simple but the argument of non lead ammo is rubbish and I cant use my guns won't fly that is exactly what they want.
    Thats my two cents worth anyway.
    None of this is going to make a blind bit of difference, the EU will get what they want anyway. But it may just open some members eyes as to what is really happening and the underhanded cloak and dagger way certain people manipulate other countries to bend to their will, all of these things always start with one person and their views on how we should all live.


  • #245
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    solarwinds wrote: »
    I have always thought but I do not have the ability to write it coherently that the argument of non lead ammunition is not as effective is a lost argument.
    You can explain until you are blue in the face that your 100 year old SxS will not fire steel shot, the answer, "thats not my problem just buy one that can", but that is very expensive, "so what, if you want shoot there is your alternative".

    None of this is going to make a blind bit of difference, the EU will get what they want anyway. But it may just open some members eyes as to what is really happening and the underhanded cloak and dagger way certain people manipulate other countries to bend to their will, all of these things always start with one person and their views on how we should all live.

    My side by sides are over 100 years old and i love them and when i bought one (was given the other as a present), i knew i didn't want to change guns again and i haven't and don't. There is supposed to be a steel load thats ok for older guns, its designed for them, but i remain skeptical. Guns are a personal thing, swapping one for another like television sets isn't really on.

    As for the EU, yes they will get what they want, but their handling of the virus has opened some peoples eyes to the inefficiency of that lot.


  • #246
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    alan0387 wrote: »
    First I





    Should add this...
    It is therefore incumbent and mandatory under EU legislation that the Irish Govt must provide this service to Irish gun owners and manufacturers of a proof house and facilities, as the UK is now no longer an EU member for Ireland to be equal with EU firearms legislation. The situation now is the equivalency of the Irish motorist having to travel to mainland Europe to acquire an NCT test to comply with EU legislation on safe and roadworthy vechicles. Even for those people who might wish to render a firearm deactivated to now mandatory EU standards of deactivation,it is impossible to do such in the current Irish situation and EU legislation.

    It would be a handy little business for someone, or a sideline for a gundealer. What do you need really ? A small industrial unit/shed. A way of loading shotgun cartridges to a higher pressure reliably, a set of stamps for marking, and a way of recording guns you have tested.


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  • #247
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »

    It would be a handy little business for someone, or a sideline for a gundealer. What do you need really ? A small industrial unit/shed. A way of loading shotgun cartridges to a higher pressure reliably, a set of stamps for marking, and a way of recording guns you have tested.

    And a qualification as a master proofer from one of the EU countries!
    Its alot more than just loading guns with over pressure loads,a degree in engineering is pretty helpful as well.
    Its the main reason that our proof laws never really went anywhere because the govt didnt want to employ a Birmingham master proofer in the 70s.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #248
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    tudderone wrote: »

    And a qualification as a master proofer from one of the EU countries!
    Its alot more than just loading guns with over pressure loads,a degree in engineering is pretty helpful as well.
    Its the main reason that our proof laws never really went anywhere because the govt didnt want to employ a Birmingham master proofer in the 70s.

    You'll need a degree to work the checkout in Dunnes soon. I work/ed in two colleges with mechanical engineering students. One asian student i was working with had next to zero English, had as much idea of engineering as i do higher astrophysics, was hopeless because he was working on the qt in a relations shop, and he still got his degree !

    I would have far more faith in a good practically trained barrel maker from Westley Richards, Holland and Holland, or FN in Leige, doing the work.

    Anyway apart from a couple of hundred to maybe a few thousand older shotguns in Ireland, is it even worth it to have a proof house here ? Most lads are shooting newish guns which are probably steel proof anyway.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q42lZqH-60


  • #249
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Hi,

    I think we should press the likes of Sport Ireland, Tourism Ireland etc. to help promote our sport, in a positive light, and aid its development.

    I've started a seperate thread, asking if anyone knows of any financial aid, or other supports, provided by Sports Ireland, to the shooting world. I know what I suspect the answer is, but thought it best to ask everyone here, before suggesting that we start pressing them to give us a rightful share, of whatever funding is available.

    Tourism Ireland will be trying to promote Ireland hard, once the lockdown ends, and are capable of helping us too - by simply including a little bit on a few target shooting clubs, for example. I would rather they don't promote hunting, as that's likely to just bring people over who want to shoot everything that moves, without giving anything back, to restock the various species.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #250
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,623 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Moved all the substitution talk to its thread, here.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • #251
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    I'm not sure if this comment belongs here however...

    Grizz talking about the CZ Shadow got me thinking about a friend over the border with a CZ handgun. Along with reloading, if they can do it safely up the road surely we can to.

    Edit - feckin' depress ya at times:(

    First they came for the socialists...



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