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Where do we go from here?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭ badaj0z


    Lovely post. Logical, common sense and experienced based.

    As I said above , I'm a supportive outsider. I also work as and with journalists and PR people. In terms of PR and media, there have been a few very important points made here that relate to public support.

    Many of you won't like my argumaent, but here it is.

    First, some selected quotes, with the what I reckon are the most relevant bits bolded:





    I don't think it is seen as a bloodsport by most people in the same way as The Hunt. See below.











    Ok, heere's my argument. Again, as an interested ousider who works with the media:

    The "domino effect"/"death by a thousand cuts" thing is a 'slippery slope' argument. It doesn't wash for something like hunting fox with horses and dogs. Most of the public see that as being in a completely different league.

    It's a bit like this: for example, when you think about it philosophically and ethically, eating sausages is on the same 'moral' scale as, say, fur farming, but the average punter doesn't see it like that.

    Because they prefer NOT to think about it like that, to its logical conclusion. That's why I think that fishing isn't held in the same low regard among ordinary urban punters as fox-hunting is.

    The last thing you want is to be associated in the public mind with support for hunting fox with horses and dogs. You're only going to lose in any association with that in the public mind.



    You want the ordinary punter to see gun use as on the level of fishing and sausage eating and mouse traps and rat poison, things they don't see or don't want to see as in even being near to the same ethical territory as something like fur farming, to continue that analogy/example. Even the leather industry has managed to successfully keep its distance from fur, except with hardcore vegans.




    This ^^^.

    Also bonus points for playing up the sports angle: biathlon, skiing, Olympic target shooting etc. There are thousands of airsofters, too. Connect; don't slag them off as children or Mittys.

    Connect with the university gun clubs. Trinity has its own small range.

    Cut out any political talk that comes across as overly American gun rightsy.
    Cut out slagging off politicians and guards and journalists.
    Cut out anything that could be interpreted as alt-right.
    Cut out sovereign citizen/freeman/resisting tyranny stuff. There was at least one on this thread already.
    Cut out talking of Eurofascism and cultural marxism etc. These are known right-wing tropes that media will pick up on.

    Be seen to be the respectful, professional, sportmen and women, some of whom who perform a valuable service culling what farmers see as pests, and others who engage in internationally recognised sports.

    Don't be associated with red-coated, red-faced, twice-a-year law firm partners frothing at the mouth and blooding each other in the woods when not riding roughshod through some smallholders land and scaring his sheep -- because THAT (unfair or not) is the public and media perception of The Hunt.

    THis is just my take. I don't want to start or get into an argument.

    Oh, and the media isn't interested in truth, balance and accuracy any more. It's about sales, clicks, lowest common denominator. Goes for Prime Time as much as any tabloid rag. They can't be trusted. Even a supportive journos words will come across differently after editors get their hands on it and pictures and headlines added in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭ Tea drinker


    I understand where you're coming from.

    What I'm really getting at is trying to understand the roots of any negative public opinion, and how that can be changed. To a large part I think that opinion is based in ignorance rather than ideology. So, educational outreach, and positive public engagement with whoever.
    It's cultural, the media traditionally associate guns with crime - either the IRA and subversive element or the drug gang type. That's the message people are used to receiving about guns. We don't have a broadcast medium of our own to counter the the broadcaster we pay for! I think RTE need to understand they have to present us fairly, or else they'll get more complaints than they did for the "God arrested" skit at Christmas ;-)
    Having said that WE need to be careful of our PR that the rabble don't become motivated to attack us and RTE for screening an OMG pro gun agenda!
    IMHO We're not going to reach anyone thru youtube.
    But there's nothing to stop us investing in a quality 30 minute video showing competitions, showing like Cass said the conservation areas and environmental impact, and the hunting aspect too, how it gets from a cleanly dispatched animal (almost no difference to dispatch of a factory animal) to a healthy meal for a family. There's any amount of presentable stuff that WE find interesting, and the above could be a nice presentation to a politician.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,423 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    QUOTE=Grolschevik;115987108]Then you need to ask yourselves why that is, and address the reasons. And ask ‘why?’ about the reasons behind the reasons, and behind those reasons again. Also, you wouldn't give up if you didn't hit the mark with your first shot, would you?

    Incompatibility and differing opinions and association of what people concieve as "firearms" in these 3 groups. You could also ask it this way too.Do we need to associate ourselves with people who are playing and practising military tactics with state of the art , albeit replica firearms, or with another bunch who dress up and pretend they are the Allgemeine SS? Also, an international shooting discipline IPSC is actually banned here in Ireland with both live and airsoft firearms because it was considered "combat training" so it can have a double-edged cutting effect if some media whore was looking for a "scoop"

    In short;we have been there,they didnt want to know, and in the case of the reenactors knew it better than us that the EU laws wouldn't apply to full auto blank firing weapons that "they used"...When in fact it was aimed exactly at those post-Bataclan and Paris shootings...Last I heard they were looking for legal representation on this here...


    Has that influence helped the cause of the ordinary shooter?
    Believe it or not ...Yes... We are all "ordinary GUN OWNERS here, shooters second. A lot gets discussed on a horse ride as much as big deals are done on the golf course.



    Would they extend the same concern in your direction?

    Yes they have...You'll have to read my memoirs for the story on that one.:)
    Ordinary punters may drift in, and I’m sure journalist have it bookmarked for the occasions they need it.

    You are actually ASFIK the 1st person who has admitted they are media openly on this site.In the 20 years I've been posting here I cant recall any media ever approaching us on anything relating to shooting, gun laws or other relevant to Ireland on this site, defeats or victories...Soo, it would suggest we aren't that important or interesting to Irish MSM. Even when IPSC was banned here RTE preferred to use a hit-piece from the US than ask Irish shooters about it.

    Thread titles and rhetoric are important because of this.
    There’s always another way of wording stuff.

    Instead of a thread title like “getting a pistol through the North”, call it “What are the rules on imports now?” Instead of “I got hundreds of bastard rats lasy night it was like a scene from ‘Nam”, write “I’ve found that setting up this way is very effective at rat control”.

    I saw a thread recently about the virtues of particular night sight. It could have been worded like “it enabled me to track the wounded animal into the undergrowth so I could humanely dispatch it”. But it was actually worded like “it ran off after I hit it but the sight picked up the heat of the fox’s intestines that were hanging out after my first shot, so I was able to find it and finish it off”.

    Just put yourself in the position of a randomer wandering in and reading that.

    Not getting at anyone, but language use and appearances are especially important to a sport that finds itself under threat.[

    Some merit to that alright. But even the Antis have claimed us calling it "field sports" is disguising bloodsports as a politer term. A case of doublespeak?

    Remember, we are arguing a lot against emotivism and "muh feelings" logic here that trumps any sort of logical debate these days.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,423 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Having said that WE need to be careful of our PR that the rabble doesn't become motivated to attack us and RTE for screening an OMG pro gun agenda!

    That's if RTE screens it in the 1st place. It is a whole process to get anything from a film can onto the air, and it's quite a feat.

    First off I'd go talk to T na G for a start. They seem to have a more liberal and open-minded programming schedule. If anyone of us here can say more than Ba maith liom caca milis,agus cead agam dul go di an leathris?"
    After 14 years of getting this crammed into our heads in school.All the better to put a proposal forward.
    To a film or documentary producer to take on this project, and where they will tolerate our input both in making it and on what stays on the film or on the cutting floor. Off they go to see is there interest and monies for such a project as well...And on it goes from there.
    It's quite a big project folks to produce an hour-long documentary can take 6 to12 months worth of work if it is going to be taken seriously by a national broadcaster. From personal experience of being involved in such a project.
    IMHO We're not going to reach anyone thru youtube
    .

    You'll reach a global audience a lot faster than the now predominately over 60's audience who just wont turn the channel out of habit or unwillingness/fear of the wider "TV" world

    That age gap doesn't need convincing about nature and the like.Its the under 40s 2.5 kids suburban soccer mom and partner



    But there's nothing to stop us investing in a quality 30-minute video showing competitions, showing like Cass said the conservation areas and environmental impact, and the hunting aspect too, how it gets from a cleanly dispatched animal (almost no difference to dispatch of a factory animal) to a healthy meal for a family. There's any amount of presentable stuff that WE find interesting, and the above could be a nice presentation to a politician
    .

    The answer above on the starting nuts&bolts of such a project.
    Ok, which politicians do we show it to, and what do we expect in return in results?
    Remember basically al politicians at the end of the day are kept whores! Kept by the party that got them to where they are, and whores in the sense they will sell themselves to you for a vote and money. We are a minority interest and grouping here in Ireland with zero political advantage and zero advantage of expending political capital on. they'll watch it, give us a nice speil of promises and have forgotten about it the next day. It's not a bad idea this film,it's just a big project to be made right and distributed at the right time too.
    However, if say the IFA farmer gun owner majority wanted a .22 handgun in the morning, they'd be all over us because of numbers and political clout.
    I've said it before talk to the fledgeling political groups coming up in Ireland. They would support us quicker than the established parties

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Cass wrote: »
    That is true and if so, well, so be it. We aren't pleasing everyone anyway so we have to move on with what we can change.

    One area is language. We try to stop the use of the word weapon, rightly so, we can apply this to other areas. Its a sport we have and i reject the use of the above term because it signifies a negative. So if we all reject it and use the word sport or fieldsport its a small step but in the right direction.

    We will have to change but not to the detriment of our sport or the values contained within.

    That’s back to the PR chestnut Cass. It’s not what’s in the package, it’s the packaging.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Cass wrote: »
    Great question, and one i'll admit to not haven considered.

    Simple answer is I don't know. If they wish to be disconnected from the larger fieldsport name/community then so be it. That is not a defeatist attitude, but if some group or organisation does not affiliation then that is their choice, i'll respect (whether i agree with it or not) and move on with those that do wish to contribute.


    Absolutely no conpsiracy theory there, it is used as such and not just by journalists or "outside sources". We have been told, directly, as much.


    Laughing to myself about this as i just mentioned it above before i read and started to reply to your post. You're exactly right, for the reason you said and what i mentioned above.


    We have got the vast majority of people to stop using "buzz" words such as weapon so there is no reason why we cannot do the same with other words, however i don't want it to affect people's ability to post openly here so middle ground will have to be found. I don't want a "sanitized" forum for the sake of others at the cost of the community.


    I get your point, but with reference to mine above i don't expect nor would i demand either a sanitiezed or pre-moderated forum. It destroys the flow of a thread/discussion and policing people's speech is not a road i want to travel.

    I appreciate this seems like me shooting down each opinion and to an extent i suppose i am which leaves us back at square one. If we intend to move with the times and/or adapt to the current times we have to change and shooting is unique in that the topic itself is controversial regardless of wording. It'll be one of the "how to" topics that will require further thought and discussion. Trying to change the mindset of hundreds of thousands of people won't happen overnight.


    I agree.

    The one key factor, regarding the forum and it's members, is we are "used to" it and in keeping with the intention of a non sanitized forum there is going to be a lot more days of discussion on how best to move forward on that point.

    Just a few wonder on the subject of buzz words. We could really use this as ammunition, pardon the pun, against the sites and outlets that use them. Take Trump for example, love him or hate him, he’s done an excellent job of discrediting biased media outlets and branding them as fake news. Using the exact same words to discredit negative media would be foolish because they’re going to bull the orange man bad tactic. But if we can get the public to see how clueless the media is when they say “mass casualty weapons” and “fully semi automatic” I think that would play into our favour, as it shows how they are not in a position to tell the public the facts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    It's cultural, the media traditionally associate guns with crime - either the IRA and subversive element or the drug gang type. That's the message people are used to receiving about guns. We don't have a broadcast medium of our own to counter the the broadcaster we pay for! I think RTE need to understand they have to present us fairly, or else they'll get more complaints than they did for the "God arrested" skit at Christmas ;-)
    Having said that WE need to be careful of our PR that the rabble don't become motivated to attack us and RTE for screening an OMG pro gun agenda!
    IMHO We're not going to reach anyone thru youtube.
    But there's nothing to stop us investing in a quality 30 minute video showing competitions, showing like Cass said the conservation areas and environmental impact, and the hunting aspect too, how it gets from a cleanly dispatched animal (almost no difference to dispatch of a factory animal) to a healthy meal for a family. There's any amount of presentable stuff that WE find interesting, and the above could be a nice presentation to a politician.

    Exactly, I mentioned something about how collectors should be allowed a wider choice of firearms, when I was talking so someone on another thead on boards and he said that the IRA would get them and use them. And this is the exact attitude that got pistols banned for 30 odd years, the perception of crime breeds fear. Perhaps a point could be made about how the government and the Gardaí are more likely to break the firearms laws, like the temporary custody order and the attempted gun ban about 10 years ago, than the actual shooting community.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    Exactly, I mentioned something about how collectors should be allowed a wider choice of firearms, when I was talking so someone on another thead on boards and he said that the IRA would get them and use them. And this is the exact attitude that got pistols banned for 30 odd years, the perception of crime breeds fear. Perhaps a point could be made about how the government and the Gardaí are more likely to break the firearms laws, like the temporary custody order and the attempted gun ban about 10 years ago, than the actual shooting community.

    I'm not surprised, I cannot speak about the rest of Ireland, but Dublin is as bad as it was in the 80's with Drugs, juvenile gangs, petty nuisance crime, knife crime, vandalism, etc.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    But if we can get the public to see how clueless the media is when they say “mass casualty weapons” and “fully semi automatic” I think that would play into our favour, as it shows how they are not in a position to tell the public the facts.

    How is that relevant to Ireland? I ask because thinking like that is once again applying an American solution to an Irish problem.

    There has never been a mass shooting in Ireland and we have access to only semi auto (forget the misnomer used) firearms. If politicians want to use such events in other countries then our job is to discredit their implication that such an event can happen here as "only a matter of time". If they [politicians] want to ban something for fear of an event then we must point out the flaw in their thinking and how holding one group of people responsible for the actions of an entirely separate group is unjust, and possibly unlawful.

    As for the media. News cycles don't last long enough for the media to worry about being precise with their terminology. They apply the same vocabulary to firearms as the general public and any attempt (as we seen with the letter writing campaign to RTE) will be largely ignored or explained away.

    Make no mistake, regardless of the level of co-operation we do or don't get this won't be easy, won't be a victory of any sort and still will not be accepted by a portion of the public. Our only focus should be on correcting disinformation where and when we can and working to highlight/call out (perhaps even stop) the continuous, subtle, links between criminals and legal firearm owners whenever its implied.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,423 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    I'm not surprised, I cannot speak about the rest of Ireland, but Dublin is as bad as it was in the 80's with Drugs, juvenile gangs, petty nuisance crime, knife crime, vandalism, etc.

    It's 100% worse!!
    Back then you had to rent a sawn-off shotgun to do a post office job at something like 10% of the takings reported on the news,and it was an extra 3% if you fired off around.
    Nowadays you spend a couple of grand for a new in the grease Polish Tantal SMG, that you can then dump and burn in the getaway car. Nobody had access to AKs as it was all under"military control " of the RA. Now as seen at the hotel shooting a couple of years ago, they seem easily acquired, like handguns. Stabbings in Dublin in the 1980s?? You had to go to Limerick for that!:eek::D A handgun shooting?Must have been RA or the like. Open borders and globalisation benefits everyone doesn't it?:p

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Perhaps a point could be made about how the government and the Gardaí are more likely to break the firearms laws, like the temporary custody order and the attempted gun ban about 10 years ago, than the actual shooting community.
    That is not the Gardaí, and we shouldn't be viewing all Gardaí as the enemy. Its the Government. Gardaí enforce, government legislate.

    Our focus is, or more accurately should be, on Governmental issues. We're a way away from that level of interaction yet, but that is where change can and will be made.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    tudderone wrote: »
    I'm not surprised, I cannot speak about the rest of Ireland, but Dublin is as bad as it was in the 80's with Drugs, juvenile gangs, petty nuisance crime, knife crime, vandalism, etc.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    It's 100% worse!!
    Back then you had to rent a sawn-off shotgun to do a post office job at something like 10% of the takings reported on the news,and it was an extra 3% if you fired off around.
    Nowadays you spend a couple of grand for a new in the grease Polish Tantal SMG, that you can then dump and burn in the getaway car. Nobody had access to AKs as it was all under"military control " of the RA. Now as seen at the hotel shooting a couple of years ago, they seem easily acquired, like handguns. Stabbings in Dublin in the 1980s?? You had to go to Limerick for that!:eek::D A handgun shooting?Must have been RA or the like. Open borders and globalisation benefits everyone doesn't it?:p

    Lads, getting off point.

    Criminality has nothing to do with sport shooting or the topic of this thread. Lets not give it anymore air time than its already been given in the media and move on.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,423 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »
    H
    Our only focus should be on correcting disinformation where and when we can and working to highlight/call out (perhaps even stop) the continuous, subtle, links between criminals and legal firearm owners whenever its implied.

    I think also we should be somewhat proactive too on some points of ownership. Constant dripping wears away a stone. We mightn't see it but maybe the next-gen will. It's a tactic that has been used by the Left/Greens in opposition for years. Might never look like its going anywhere, but its always there, until it wears a hole into the rock. Question is what will be acceptable to all point or what would give us another easy win?

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭ GooseB


    A very positive aspect of shooting in my opinion that really should be spoken of more, particularly if trying to educate the "general public" on shooting sports is the inclusiveness and equality of it. From a target shooting viewpoint, a 19 year old girl can potentially shoot beside a 90 year old man and both shoot against each other more or less equally.

    At the top level the sexes may have separate events but less formally there's really no need to separate them. Similarly, a person with a particular disability may be able to compete pretty much equally against an able bodied person. The shooter can be any age, orientation, race or creed - of all sports, shooting has to be up at the top as one of the best levelers out there. "It's all about the nut behind the bolt" as I was told.

    Like it or not, "inclusiveness" is the way of the world now, particularly among the typical demographic that forms the anti gun brigade and mindset. The target aspect of the sport lends itself well in that regard and could potentially be capitalised more.

    Apologies for the target-centric post but that's where I fit into the shooting jigsaw. I'm definitely not anti hunting, but I do think the target side of the wider shooting community is the easier side to get outsiders/the media/politicians - all the groups mentioned over the multiple pages of this thread so far - to see that guns are "weapons" about as much as golf clubs are "weapons". Hunting as an introduction has 2 major shocks, 1. The "oh my god it's a gun" and 2. The killing. Target shooting only has point No.1 so is an easier introduction to get started off with at least.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    You're spot on Goose. Target shooting is the universal introduction to the sport.

    As way of clarification about my idea on introduction days to hunting, it would be aimed more towards those of a "familiar" background. IOW people in the same local as a gun club or from a background where such hunting would not upset or shock them. Obviously wouldn't want to take someone that has never seen a rabbit and then bring them out to shoot one.

    Anthropomorphism is a real concern on that front and however one may think of it, it needs to be considered.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,423 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    We actually did use that as a selling point in the Dail public inquiry the while back, when questioned by Sen Ivarina Barick[SIC] about equality and inclusivity.

    Can't remember who it was on the panel[Sparks perhaps?] that said we were the most inclusive and gender-equal sport in Ireland and mentioned all your points there. Sen Barick then departed the inquiry with a big happy smile on her face. I felt it was a lost opportunity that no one in the orgs followed up with her to develop her into contact and ally.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭ JP22


    GooseB wrote: »
    A very positive aspect of shooting in my opinion that really should be spoken of more, particularly if trying to educate the "general public" on shooting sports is the inclusiveness and equality of it. From a target shooting viewpoint, a 19 year old girl can potentially shoot beside a 90 year old man and both shoot against each other more or less equally.

    At the top level the sexes may have separate events but less formally there's really no need to separate them. Similarly, a person with a particular disability may be able to compete pretty much equally against an able bodied person. The shooter can be any age, orientation, race or creed - of all sports, shooting has to be up at the top as one of the best levelers out there. "It's all about the nut behind the bolt" as I was told.

    Like it or not, "inclusiveness" is the way of the world now, particularly among the typical demographic that forms the anti gun brigade and mindset. The target aspect of the sport lends itself well in that regard and could potentially be capitalised more.

    Apologies for the target-centric post but that's where I fit into the shooting jigsaw. I'm definitely not anti hunting, but I do think the target side of the wider shooting community is the easier side to get outsiders/the media/politicians - all the groups mentioned over the multiple pages of this thread so far - to see that guns are "weapons" about as much as golf clubs are "weapons". Hunting as an introduction has 2 major shocks, 1. The "oh my god it's a gun" and 2. The killing. Target shooting only has point No.1 so is an easier introduction to get started off with at least.

    I agree, retired clay & rough shooter myself, Benchrest is my go to now.

    Don't know how many females shoot game, not many I would suggest, but lots shoot Benchrest and archery has huge numbers.

    You never hear anyone saying "o my god, its a bow and arrow".

    Peoples perceptions and fears also need to be address.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Cass wrote: »
    Lads, getting off point.

    Criminality has nothing to do with sport shooting or the topic of this thread. Lets not give it anymore air time than its already been given in the media and move on.
    Quoting myself for this one.

    Here is another video made in 2015 by Sparks of the Oireachtas committee meeting and from 18:58 onwards he raises the very same point.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    I started a new job years ago, getting to know the people who worked there, i kept my interest in shooting under my hat for about a year. I told a lad who worked there eventually and he was really enthuased, as he'd never fired a gun, so i took him to the range and he loved it, but he could not take up the hobby as his missus put her foot down and said no guns in the house.

    He was a convert, even if he couldn't shoot himself, but the people in the office were appalled at the notion of me owning a gun. I got the usual jibes about the kinahans and the IRA, and despite the use of facts and figures, which i found were ignored, emotion seemed to rule over logic.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    civdef wrote: »
    Actually - while I'm at it, why is the off-topic thread a thing here at all? .

    Because it was asked for.

    It initially it was for lads to discuss anything they wanted whether it was directly, indirectly or only tangentially linked to shooting, but very early on and then suddenly deteriorated into a political thread and forgien politics one at that.

    Come to think of it, why is it still there. Reading back through it over the last few days and bar the first page every single page since is filled with posts about America and American politics. Some UK/EU stuff and a little Irish for good measure, but by and large a poor fit for the forum.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Maybe not the best place to put it, but the Off-Topic thread has been, temporarily, removed.

    I want it reviewed because as has been pointed out by more than a few, and not only recently, its a poor fit for the forum.

    Will update elsewhere when a decision on it's future is made.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ Limerick Sovereigns


    I have considered the idea of building and licencing a 25m or 50 m range when the kids are reared and semi-retirement becomes an option. I have been passively scouting for a location as I travel the region while working.

    I think that the Castlebridge range in Wexford might be a model that could be replicated and improved. Basically, its a disused industrial building (maybe an abattoir) that is well away from any neighbours. This makes noise a non-issue so the only other problems are ventilation and baffles/buttstops. Its not Midlands, but if there was one in every county that currently has nothing it might make a difference. I'm open to correction from those involved, but it can't have cost a king's ransom to get off the ground.

    My suggestion for action: Invite interest in starting a project off-line so that a small group of motivated people could design a template for:

    1) A small affordable indoor range.
    2) A small affordable outdoor range.

    which would meet DoJ standards.

    I think that this would be a valuable resource to anyone who wanted to give such a project a go. However, anyone doing so who thinks that they will get rich from it is dreaming. These types of ranges/clubs would just about break even in most locations in my opinion so it would most likely be a labour of love that would benefit the sport rather than an individual. If someone makes a few quid then all the better but you wouldn't want to be trying to pay your mortgage from the subscriptions.

    Obviously, the templates would have to be altered to suit any individual site, but the specification would also describe the features to look for in a site or building in the first place.

    Is this suggestion worth developing? I would certainly chip in for what little my knowledge is worth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭ civdef


    That's a really good plan. The Dept of Education did this a decade or so ago with Generic Repeat Design schools - everything built since then was basically a variation of the same design, with a lot of money & time saved on design phase.


  • Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭ JP22


    An indoor 50m range in Ireland, super idea :D:D, we would all be spoilt.

    Seriously though, easy option would be 40 foot shipping containers welded together, your only downfall would be the restriction in numbers who could shoot. Probably not viable for an ongoing enterprise.

    As you said, build costs crazy here and you will not get rich on it, best options would be a block built old warehouse that could be converted.

    Probably too expensive for just one person, never mind to run it, this is where a group of like minded people could make a go of it, subject to planning and licensing which is a mountain to climb in itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Cass wrote: »
    How is that relevant to Ireland? I ask because thinking like that is once again applying an American solution to an Irish problem.

    There has never been a mass shooting in Ireland and we have access to only semi auto (forget the misnomer used) firearms. If politicians want to use such events in other countries then our job is to discredit their implication that such an event can happen here as "only a matter of time". If they [politicians] want to ban something for fear of an event then we must point out the flaw in their thinking and how holding one group of people responsible for the actions of an entirely separate group is unjust, and possibly unlawful.

    As for the media. News cycles don't last long enough for the media to worry about being precise with their terminology. They apply the same vocabulary to firearms as the general public and any attempt (as we seen with the letter writing campaign to RTE) will be largely ignored or explained away.

    Make no mistake, regardless of the level of co-operation we do or don't get this won't be easy, won't be a victory of any sort and still will not be accepted by a portion of the public. Our only focus should be on correcting disinformation where and when we can and working to highlight/call out (perhaps even stop) the continuous, subtle, links between criminals and legal firearm owners whenever its implied.

    Cass, I would ask the question how isn't that relevant to Ireland? If we're to convince the public that we know our stuff and the media and politicians are clueless, then why not call them out. You, yourself, admit that "we should be correcting disinformation where and where we can", so why not correct it here? Pointing out the flaws of politicians' thoughts and plans isn't enough, we need to completely discredit them for their incompetence on the subject matter, if the public sees some clueless fella trying to tell them why certain firearms should be banned, they're not going to listen to him. I certainly agree that we have to discredit any links between crime and sports shooters, but why limit ourselves to that? Why not attack their foundational knowledge and make their entire argument come crashing down around them?

    On another note, I've heard that the 50 cal society in the UK were successful in recent attempts to ban 50 cals, so perhaps we could take a page out of their book. I'm not sure what they did in the form of lobbying, so maybe someone can get in contact with them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Cass wrote: »
    That is not the Gardaí, and we shouldn't be viewing all Gardaí as the enemy. Its the Government. Gardaí enforce, government legislate.

    Our focus is, or more accurately should be, on Governmental issues. We're a way away from that level of interaction yet, but that is where change can and will be made.

    Oh I agree completely, but you can't deny that they've bent the law in their favour on several occasions and perhaps this could be used as a point against the government?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Cass, I would ask the question how isn't that relevant to Ireland?
    Because the two examples you gave are American issues. Their mass shootings and the retired General talking about "full semi auto". If we're to challenge the misnomers used by Irish politicians/media then fair enough, but i'm not going to touch the American side of it with a barge pole.
    If we're to convince the public that we know our stuff and the media and politicians are clueless, then why not call them out.
    Absolutely call them out, but when it applies to us.
    You, yourself, admit that "we should be correcting disinformation where and where we can", so why not correct it here?
    As above, those examples are American and were already mocked, ridiculed and exposed as the lies they are by American media (however MSM or not it was).
    I certainly agree that we have to discredit any links between crime and sports shooters, but why limit ourselves to that? Why not attack their foundational knowledge and make their entire argument come crashing down around them? .
    I agree, but name the last time an IRISH politician made the mistake you are referring to about the American media? I don't remember one in the last few years and i'm not going to waste my breath attacking American sources of misinformation that does not apply to Ireland and was not commented on or repeated by an Irish politician.

    IOW if we see an Irish politician or news media spread misinformation or outright lies about firearms, firearm ownership, etc. then absolutely go for gold, but if its American, or regarding criminality we leave it alone. I mean if RTE do a piece on a criminal getting caught with an AK, and we know it to be a CZ452, we don't write in telling RTE how they messed up naming the rifle as such a correction can be viewed as us "siding" with the criminal element (however tentative that view may be) and it does nothing for our plan to distance ourselves from being lumped in with criminality.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,423 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    I started a new job years ago, getting to know the people who worked there, i kept my interest in shooting under my hat for about a year. I told a lad who worked there eventually and he was really enthuased, as he'd never fired a gun, so i took him to the range and he loved it, but he could not take up the hobby as his missus put her foot down and said no guns in the house.

    He was a convert, even if he couldn't shoot himself, but the people in the office were appalled at the notion of me owning a gun. I got the usual jibes about the kinahans and the IRA, and despite the use of facts and figures, which i found were ignored, emotion seemed to rule over logic.

    I'd have gone to HR about it and made an issue of bullying and harassment. Would your co-workers be so smart assed if you were openly gay,or black or both or wearing a yarmulke to work because you are Jewish? This is my point about coming out of the gun safe.
    We have to challenge it too and make people uncomfortable about their biases too..Remember this is now a LIFESTYLE choice, not a hobby, and I say that because we are under scrutiny by LE and govt as to our suitability to own firearms,and surrender our privacy rights to do so. This tolerance ,diversity and equality lark can now work both ways. Use it.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Remember this is now a LIFESTYLE choice, not a hobby,
    That is an important part of this thread and the thinking behind it.

    This is a lifestyle choice and for most of us, one that was handed down from Father or family. I grew up with it as much as i did learning any other social interactions. IOW its second nature to me.

    So if other cultural practices are tolerated and/or respected so too should ours.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Is there some mechanism, like a judicial review say, to get a concrete answer on some of the hazier sides of our firearms legislation?

    I was thinking about the introducing younger/new folks part of going forward and certainly the more dynamic is a lot more popular the younger you are.

    I believe this is the section in question:
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/28/enacted/en/print#sec33

    Which, if I am reading it correct, would allow the use of paintball/airsoft pistols to run some more practically oriented stuff, under the 16 joule limit that is.

    But what I was thinking with clarification above, is there something regarding legislation that would mean if it is not specific enough then it would not be enforceable?
    Thus if "simulate combat or combat training" were clarified to mean IDPA then IPSC may be alright is my thinking.
    Or even a 22 form of steel challenge.

    On the fun side of shooting though, I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of steel shooting even with 22 pistols at ranges here.
    Paper is all well and good but I've always preferred steel, and feel it appeals more to younger/new shooters rather than a hole being punched in paper.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban

    2023 Gun Ban - Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022



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