Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

El_Duderino 09 · 03-02-2021 9:58pm

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

https://twitter.com/HillF1/status/1357044407338467335

A veto on his teammate, Rosberg really left his mark

If true then it’s cowardly. He talks about how much he loves the competition, but if this is true then it’s the opposite of all that talk.

Frank Bullitt · 03-02-2021 10:00pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If true then it’s cowardly. He talks about how much he loves the competition, but if this is true then it’s the opposite of all that talk.

I can also imagine the performance of Russel being a rather large factor in that as well.

A lot of lead drivers can ask for vetos etc on teammates, Prost did it to Senna. I do agree with you though, this is a bit of a cowards approach to not stir the pot.

BBDBB · 03-02-2021 10:18pm

On balance I don’t think that the veto clause is genuine, at best it’s a negotiation tactic, ask for something you won’t get in order to get something you do really want when you later drop it.

It wouldn’t reflect well on Lewis who does pride himself on his public image

At this moment Lewis needs Mercedes more than Mercedes need Lewis. Why? Mercedes have the best car by a distance proven by Bottas comfortable 2nd place and Russell’s performance (not result) in the car in his absence. Lewis wants to be the GOAT, he’s currently stuck on sharing the number of world titles, he needs Merc to make that happen before his inevitable decline/retirement

To further stir the pot, I’m not sure he would veto young pup Russell, I reckon if it’s serious, it’s to stop the likes of Vettel, Verstappen or even Alonso

It’s going to be very revealing re who calls the shots at Mercedes when it plays out

recyclebin · 03-02-2021 10:34pm

Hamilton with a veto would be a bit like Ferraris veto. It may ever actually be used but a good bargaining chip to have in back pocket. It would also rule out Verstappen as a team mate, but Russell would probably be acceptable in 2022 if Hamilton already has title number 8 by then.

This is it · 03-02-2021 10:57pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Hamilton with a veto would be a bit like Ferraris veto. It may ever actually be used but a good bargaining chip to have in back pocket. It would also rule out Verstappen as a team mate, but Russell would probably be acceptable in 2022 if Hamilton already has title number 8 by then.

I don't think so. It would be serious competition for Hamilton and I don't think he wants that. He'll want to go out winning not fighting and possibly coming 2nd

mickdw · 03-02-2021 10:58pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Hamilton with a veto would be a bit like Ferraris veto. It may ever actually be used but a good bargaining chip to have in back pocket. It would also rule out Verstappen as a team mate, but Russell would probably be acceptable in 2022 if Hamilton already has title number 8 by then.

He always says all he wants is equal status.
If he is looking to control who his team mate is behind the scenes, well that is a disgrace.
No shame in wanting to control a team and have it built up around you - plenty of the greats have done that openly but claiming to happily take on anyone in equal machinery and doing different via the legal team is a sh1tty move and wouldnt surprise me.

muckwarrior · 03-02-2021 11:32pm

Things we can confidently say will happen this year:
- Hamilton will beat Bottas to the championship again.
- Verstappen will be the closest rival.
- Vectra will say something stupid, which El_Dudarino will immediately take him to task on, and a silly argument will ensue for several pages, much to the consternation of other posters.

This is it · 03-02-2021 11:51pm

muckwarrior wrote: »

Things we can confidently say will happen this year:
- Hamilton will beat Bottas to the championship again.
- Verstappen will be the closest rival.
- Vectra will say something stupid, which El_Dudarino will immediately take him to task on, and a silly argument will ensue for several pages, much to the consternation of other posters.

All I'm hoping for is a few LeClerc podiums

vectra · 04-02-2021 1:19am

muckwarrior wrote: »

Things we can confidently say will happen this year:
- Hamilton will beat Bottas to the championship again.
- Verstappen will be the closest rival.
- Vectra will say something stupid, which El_Dudarino will immediately take him to task on jump on like a dog with a bitch in heat, and a silly argument will ensue for several pages, much to the consternation of other posters.

FYP

OH
And that stupid thing you are referring to was a simple question and of course El_Dude jumped on it like a rash.

BBDBB · 04-02-2021 7:57am

Perhaps more significant to the Hamilton/Mercedes negotiation will the introduction of the salary cap. (next year? part way through the contract)As I understand it, Hamilton is paid already more at the moment with his current deal significantly more than the salary cap will permit Mercedes spending on BOTH drivers

El_Duderino 09 · 04-02-2021 10:01am

BBDBB wrote: »

Perhaps more significant to the Hamilton/Mercedes negotiation will the introduction of the salary cap. (next year? part way through the contract)As I understand it, Hamilton is paid already more at the moment with his current deal significantly more than the salary cap will permit Mercedes spending on BOTH drivers

I’d be surprised if they’re isn’t a way around it, at least in the beginning. Like I’d be surprised if it isn’t phased in, so they could pay the bulk of Hamilton’s contract in the first year.

And how does it work with bonuses? Are bonuses and “brand ambassador” role payments included in the cap?

Knowing F1, there will be plenty of ways around it for the rich teams.

duploelabs · 04-02-2021 10:11am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

BBDBB wrote: »

Perhaps more significant to the Hamilton/Mercedes negotiation will the introduction of the salary cap. (next year? part way through the contract)As I understand it, Hamilton is paid already more at the moment with his current deal significantly more than the salary cap will permit Mercedes spending on BOTH drivers[/quote

I’d be surprised if they’re isn’t a way around it, at least in the beginning. Like I’d be surprised if it isn’t phased in, so they could pay the bulk of Hamilton’s contract in the first year.

And how does it work with bonuses? Are bonuses and “brand ambassador” role payments included in the cap?

Knowing F1, there will be plenty of ways around it for the rich teams.

I doubt the brand ambassador role is taken into a wage cap as that would be hamilton along getting endorsement from someone like hublot rather than mercedes themselves

El_Duderino 09 · 04-02-2021 10:28am

duploelabs wrote: »

I doubt the brand ambassador role is taken into a wage cap as that would be hamilton along getting endorsement from someone like hublot rather than mercedes themselves

I wonder if Ineos (or some other companies owned by Ineos or Mercedes) could personally sponsor him as well as being the team's main shareholders? I'd say there are loads of ways around the pay cap.

quokula · 04-02-2021 10:31am

This is it wrote: »

I don't think so. It would be serious competition for Hamilton and I don't think he wants that. He'll want to go out winning not fighting and possibly coming 2nd

Yeah I'm surprised so many people think this is a possibility. Hamilton and Russell in the same team will never happen. Unless Bottas decides to quit, he will never be replaced as long as Lewis is at the team. There have been ample reasons and opportunities to drop him before now and they've never considered it, as it is pretty obvious that Hamilton would veto it.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-02-2021 11:05am

quokula wrote: »

Yeah I'm surprised so many people think this is a possibility. Hamilton and Russell in the same team will never happen. Unless Bottas decides to quit, he will never be replaced as long as Lewis is at the team. There have been ample reasons and opportunities to drop him before now and they've never considered it, as it is pretty obvious that Hamilton would veto it.

I suppose they have no reason to consider it now because they win the drivers’ and constructors’ championships with ease. If they needed a driver faster than Bottas in the second seat it would force the issue.

But unless that happens, I could only see them putting Russell in the car in Hamilton’s last year to get him used to the team so he can be team leader the following year. But if Hamilton has a veto, then that idea goes down the drain.

It’s a real pity to watch Russell waste his time in a Williams. But it’s definitely the right decision him to wait and then hope to dominate in the Mercedes when he gets his chance.

Jordan 199 · 04-02-2021 1:38pm

Alpha Tauri launch on the 19th of February.

recyclebin · 04-02-2021 8:16pm

I think Russell will be in the Mercedes in 2022 regardless of whether Hamilton is there or not. Bottas contract won't be renewed after this year unless Hamilton retires at the end of the season. Bottas was lucky he had a contract for 2021 before Russell stepped in for Hamilton in Bahrain.

Charlie-Bravo · 04-02-2021 8:49pm

Jordan 199 wrote: »

Alpha Tauri launch on the 19th of February.

I feel a 2021 Launch Date thread is going to be needed!

Frank Bullitt · 04-02-2021 10:47pm

Charlie-Bravo wrote: »

I feel a 2021 Launch Date thread is going to be needed!

I love this time of the year where I get excited to see new cars, and then get my hopes of a good season dashed once testing starts.

Adamocovic · 04-02-2021 11:03pm

Charlie-Bravo wrote: »

I feel a 2021 Launch Date thread is going to be needed!

Just give us the damn Aston Martin livery already!

Love the launches, eagerly waiting to see what they come up with.

04-02-2021 11:21pm

Slight interest in the AM livery. Aside from that I couldn't care, gonna be pretty much the same shapes as last year, with a little bit of the annoyingly big floors removed.

Jordan 199 · 04-02-2021 11:56pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

Just give us the damn Aston Martin livery already!

Can't wait for the Alpine one meself

Jordan 199 · 05-02-2021 4:13am

Car launch dates confirmed so far:

McLaren: 15th of February.

Alpha Tauri: 19th of February.

Alfa Romeo: 22nd of February.

Mercedes: 2nd of March.

Williams: 5th of March.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 10:52am

Some interesting chats in the latest Autosport podcase. They're big fans of Stefano Domenicali as head of Liberty Media. SD said that reverse grids are out of the discussion and they're looking at the idea of sprint races on Saturdays.

I expect F1 fans will hate the idea of sprint races too. I think, every year they just have to throw out the idea of a new format, wait for the fans to hate it and then say "well, we tried", and then continue the way they've always done it.

They also suggested a double-header to start the season as Portugal is experiencing a wave of Covid at the moment so they're probably out of contention.

05-02-2021 11:19am

I don't see how a sprint race would help the teams tbh, what's an extra front wing cost these days, 10 or 15k? Engines are already turned way down to last a stupid number of races.

Probes · 05-02-2021 11:22am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't see how a sprint race would help the teams tbh, what's an extra front wing cost these days, 10 or 15k? Engines are already turned way down to last a stupid number of races.

A sprint race with hard compound tyres where drivers can go flat out for the whole race could be fun and give saturdays a bit of a lift.

duploelabs · 05-02-2021 11:28am

Probes wrote: »

A sprint race with hard compound tyres where drivers can go flat out for the whole race could be fun and give saturdays a bit of a lift.

What would make the sprint races matter is if it decided the grid for the main race as used in other formats

Inquitus · 05-02-2021 12:28pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Some interesting chats in the latest Autosport podcase. They're big fans of Stefano Domenicali as head of Liberty Media. SD said that reverse grids are out of the discussion and they're looking at the idea of sprint races on Saturdays.

I expect F1 fans will hate the idea of sprint races too. I think, every year they just have to throw out the idea of a new format, wait for the fans to hate it and then say "well, we tried", and then continue the way they've always done it.

They also suggested a double-header to start the season as Portugal is experiencing a wave of Covid at the moment so they're probably out of contention.

A sprint race with 1/2 or 1/4 points would be ok by me I think, no reverse grids or other nonsense though, F1 must remain a meritocracy.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 12:43pm

Inquitus wrote: »

A sprint race with 1/2 or 1/4 points would be ok by me I think, no reverse grids or other nonsense though, F1 must remain a meritocracy.

It is a meritocracy now. The best team gets the most money hires the best staff, best drivers and makes the best car and wins the championships with ease every year. That’s what we all want, total dominant and none of that close competition nonsense, right?

We know who’s going to win before the season even starts. What’s not to like about that?

Inquitus · 05-02-2021 12:56pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It is a meritocracy now. The best team gets the most money hires the best staff, best drivers and makes the best car and wins the championships with ease every year. That’s what we all want, total dominant and none of that close competition nonsense, right?

We know who’s going to win before the season even starts. What’s not to like about that?

I am utterly against anything that tries to change the racing from a meritocracy to some warped balance of performance crap, even if it means the title race is uncompetitive, F1 has always been a meritocracy and should always remain so. All dominant runs have come to an end throughout the history of F1, and the same will happen to Mercedes F1 one day soon, perhaps this season, perhaps not, we shall see.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 1:05pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I am utterly against anything that tries to change the racing from a meritocracy to some warped balance of performance crap, even if it means the title race is uncompetitive, F1 has always been a meritocracy and should always remain so. All dominant runs have come to an end throughout the history of F1, and the same will happen to Mercedes F1 one day soon, perhaps this season, perhaps not, we shall see.

Red bull’s dominance came to an end in 2014 and it made absolutely no difference. Which team is miles in front makes no difference.

And I think you sum up the f1 attitude perfectly. It’s as if f1 was more than just an sport - a form of entertainment. I think some people think it has intrinsic value beyond being entertaining to watch and follow.

If they’re clever, they’ll find ways of manipulating it to make it better to watch as an entertainment, but also convince the fans that it’s “pure”. I cringe so hard when I see fans describe it as pure. As if racing around in cars is natural.
If they were doing sprint races or reverse grids or whatever, back when the older people started watching, then they’d fight equally against any changes to that format. It’s not about the sport being pure, it’s about it not changing.

And you’ll be delighted to know that this year will be the same as last year, and the year before and they year before. Absolutely no competition for the championships.

Inquitus · 05-02-2021 1:46pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And you’ll be delighted to know that this year will be the same as last year, and the year before and they year before. Absolutely no competition for the championships.

You may be right, from what I have read the 2021 changes have more of an impact on the Red Bull high rake design than the more neutral Mercedes design, if that turns out to be true it may push Mercedes out even further, we will find out in 2 months in Bahrain I guess.

I think it is fair to assume Ferrari can make some strides, but won't be able to challenge for the titles, if Red Bull's high rake concept falls foul of the new regulations then we are looking at Renault and McLaren to bring the challenge to Mercedes. Time will tell!

Charlie-Bravo · 05-02-2021 1:57pm

Does the Alpha Tauri have a higher rake? and would we see maybe AT beating the RB?!

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 2:04pm

Inquitus wrote: »

You may be right, from what I have read the 2021 changes have more of an impact on the Red Bull high rake design than the more neutral Mercedes design, if that turns out to be true it may push Mercedes out even further, we will find out in 2 months in Bahrain I guess.

I think it is fair to assume Ferrari can make some strides, but won't be able to challenge for the titles, if Red Bull's high rake concept falls foul of the new regulations then we are looking at Renault and McLaren to bring the challenge to Mercedes. Time will tell!

Yeah hopefully Ferrari will make a decent step forward. New engine and hopefully they can rework the downforce problems.

I’ve seen articles that say the red bull will struggle with the high rake design and I’ve see other articles that say the Mercedes will struggle other reasons like their long wheelbase. Like you say, time will tell.

Adamocovic · 05-02-2021 4:59pm

I would hope with the car body changes, budget caps coming in and lower teams being afforded more testing time that within the next decade we will hopefully see closer racing.

Maybe I’m foolish to buy into it but the idea of moving towards the stage where we could possibly have a number of drivers with legitimate chances of winning (without a rare bizarre moment) would be brilliant.

05-02-2021 5:05pm

Yeah it's gimmicky and I was shot down before but how about money for the sprint race?
Otherwise it'll just be a watered-down full race. Monaco no stops unless mandated. Most other circuits one stop. Give an incentive for teams to try something different in the race.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 5:06pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

I would hope with the car body changes, budget caps coming in and lower teams being afforded more testing time that within the next decade we will hopefully see closer racing.

Maybe I’m foolish to buy into it but the idea of moving towards the stage where we could possibly have a number of drivers with legitimate chances of winning (without a rare bizarre moment) would be brilliant.

I completely agree. But of course this is a clever way to get around the pure meritocracy of the best team producing the fastest cars and getting further and further ahead of the field.

Is that system begin to take effect this year? Does Williams get significantly more wind tunnel time and runs than Mercedes from this year or is that from next year?

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 5:14pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah it's gimmicky and I was shot down before but how about money for the sprint race?
Otherwise it'll just be a watered-down full race. Monaco no stops unless mandated. Most other circuits one stop. Give an incentive for teams to try something different in the race.

I’m sure you could point out all the problems with that yourself. But to name a few: who would pay the prize money? F1 team budgets are like Disney dollars. The money they get is mostly sponsorship and the FIA championship payments. If Mercedes don’t need the money for sprint races, then why bother with sprint race?

If there’s a sprint race, it should have champs points or help determine the starting grid for the race. Otherwise it’s just an exhibition.

And maybe they could use some exhibition races to spice up the show. It might help older fans to get on board to say that they used to have exhibition races back in the old days. They had whole weekends where they raced purely for the money - I think that’s why there was some confusion over exactly which race was Ferrari’s 1000th. They did 1000 official championship races but had also done a few non championship f1 weekends.

But that was back when they had far fewer races per year. The calendar is pretty full these days with 20ish races per year.

mickdw · 05-02-2021 6:53pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m sure you could point out all the problems with that yourself. But to name a few: who would pay the prize money? F1 team budgets are like Disney dollars. The money they get is mostly sponsorship and the FIA championship payments. If Mercedes don’t need the money for sprint races, then why bother with sprint race?

If there’s a sprint race, it should have champs points or help determine the starting grid for the race. Otherwise it’s just an exhibition.

And maybe they could use some exhibition races to spice up the show. It might help older fans to get on board to say that they used to have exhibition races back in the old days. They had whole weekends where they raced purely for the money - I think that’s why there was some confusion over exactly which race was Ferrari’s 1000th. They did 1000 official championship races but had also done a few non championship f1 weekends.

But that was back when they had far fewer races per year. The calendar is pretty full these days with 20ish races per year.

Speaking of exhibitions, i hope they run alot more city demo events around gp weekends when covid goes away. They are a great way of getting more people, kids etc up close to the cars and drivers. Id arguably prefer to go to one of those than an actual gp.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 7:03pm

mickdw wrote: »

Speaking of exhibitions, i hope they run alot more city demo events around gp weekends when covid goes away. They are a great way of getting more people, kids etc up close to the cars and drivers. Id arguably prefer to go to one of those than an actual gp.

Really? I’ve never been to one. I remember there being controversy when Hamilton didn’t go to one in London for me time. Sounds good I suppose. Liberty media will probably be on the ball with that kind of thing.

I remember seeing a Renault on display at a car exhibition in Newcastle a few years ago. I don’t think anyone drove it but maybe someone did give it a spin over the weekend. I’d say it’s a great way to get children interested alright. Very interactive and short.

This is it · 05-02-2021 7:16pm

Would anyone be interested in an F1 predictions league? Like the boards premier league one in the soccer forum.

Each poster predicts pole, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and last. Guess right and get points

1pt for guessing pole
1pt for guessing 3rd
3pts for guessing 2nd
5pts for guessing 1st
3pts for guessing last finisher, so excludes DNF

Will open a new thread and keep everything there if there's enough interest. Any edited posts after Q1 starts won't be counted. Would need 10+ posters to even bother starting I think. Can change up the rules if there are more suggestions,. Obviously Hamilton would be first on everyone's list for most weekends hence me adding decent points for last!

AMKC · 05-02-2021 7:18pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Really? I’ve never been to one. I remember the new being controversy when Hamilton didn’t go to one in London for me time. Sounds good I suppose. Liberty media will probably be on the ball with that kind of thing.

I remember seeing a Renault on display at a car exhibition in Newcastle a few years ago. I don’t think anyone drove it but maybe someone did give it a spin over the weekend. I’d say it’s a great way to get children interested alright. Very interactive and short.

I seen a Jaguar on display at Goffs. That's going back a bit

Sounds good I suppose. Liberty media will probably be on the ball with that kind of thing.

The one in Dublin was very good. Unfortunatly it never happened again. I would say if they tried again there would be less of a crowd because it's not free to view anymore and has lost a lot of fans. The screaming V8s were amazing do and Dublin was shuck with noise and a great crowd there that day too.

mickdw · 05-02-2021 8:24pm

AMKC wrote: »

I seen a Jaguar on display at Goffs. That's going back a bit

Sounds good I suppose. Liberty media will probably be on the ball with that kind of thing.

The one in Dublin was very good. Unfortunatly it never happened again. I would say if they tried again there would be less of a crowd because it's not free to view anymore and has lost a lot of fans. The screaming V8s were amazing do and Dublin was shuck with noise and a great crowd there that day too.

The standout from dublin event was the noise.
I was right up at one of the fences where they did donuts at the end of the run and the noise being only a few metres from the cars was nuts.
Its not your ears that takes in that kind of noise - you feel it more than hear it.

Also, the manhole covers were tarred over for the event but F1 car ripped up the thin layer of tar the first time the tyre hit it.

05-02-2021 8:29pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m sure you could point out all the problems with that yourself. But to name a few: who would pay the prize money? F1 team budgets are like Disney dollars. The money they get is mostly sponsorship and the FIA championship payments. If Mercedes don’t need the money for sprint races, then why bother with sprint race?

If there’s a sprint race, it should have champs points or help determine the starting grid for the race. Otherwise it’s just an exhibition.

Again, take it from the yearly prize money.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-02-2021 8:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, take it from the yearly prize money.

Sure. It represents change so you know what most old school f1 fans will make of the idea.

vectra · 06-02-2021 1:33am

This is it wrote: »

Would anyone be interested in an F1 predictions league?

Yes

flazio · 06-02-2021 10:04am

Random fact, Daniel and Landos race numbers would have indicated that McLaren came second in last year's constructors championship under the previous car numbering system.

duploelabs · 06-02-2021 10:11am

flazio wrote: »

Random fact, Daniel and Landos race numbers would have indicated that McLaren came second in last year's constructors championship under the previous car numbering system.

Notions

Cork Trucker · 06-02-2021 10:11am

flazio wrote: »

Random fact, Daniel and Landos race numbers would have indicated that McLaren came second in last year's constructors championship under the previous car numbering system.

A system i much preferred. First time since 2014 that 2 teams have had consecutive numbers for their drivers? Ericsson 9, Kobayashi 10?

pjohnson · 06-02-2021 10:31am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A system i much preferred. First time since 2014 that 2 teams have had consecutive numbers for their drivers? Ericsson 9, Kobayashi 10?

Stroll & Massa were 18 & 19 in 2017.

Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

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