Where do we go from here?

berettaman · 18-01-2021 7:45pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Need to start with ourselves as well. We need to start "coming out of the closet" and point out this is a lifestyle choice and not a "hobby" and we have nothing to be ashamed of or owe anyone an explanation as to why we are this way, and We'd appreciate some "Tolerance and respect "as we are demanded to show others of alt lifestyles and multi genders.
Start learning from our enemies tactics as well to fight them with their own weapons too.

This is spot on.

Sorry if I am going back and forth but it is a great thread and the death by a thousand cuts bit at the start got me. We are on borrowed time.

We do need to start with ourselves. We do need to come out of the closet or the gun safe or wherever.:D
I was listening to a podcast recently (Was it the 2 Johnnies ? can't remember ) and yer man mentioned going shooting. It was refreshing to hear someone talk about going out after rabbits.

I hear nothing but green sh1te on the media all the time and we get a fair bashing.. Here is the thing. I have been in business nearly 15 years. I have met 1000's of people over the years in my line of work and I only remember 2 or 3 people saying they were against hunting or shooting. We need to remember that we are not the minority that we think we are.We are just silent.

Also, some of our members need a kick in the arse.
kick 1

They are not involved and will not do anything to help but they are quick out of the traps to run down those that are involved on committees and so on when something happens. If you have better ideas, volunteer and help.
Kick 2

FFS stop putting pictures of half decapitated foxes or car bonnets filled with woodcock on Facebook and so on, as it reinforces the stereotype and provides ammo to the enemies.
I am all for controlling foxes but FFS some of the pics are ridiculous.
Some people do not have a brain cell to spare.

Cass · 18-01-2021 8:30pm

Feisar wrote: »

One I can't shoot outside of a range and two it's illegal to shoot a gun one doesn't have a licence for. So IMHO that's the first thing that we'd need to tackle. Plus it'd be a small first bite.

kjl412 wrote: »

I think that’s a great idea I’m 21 and have lots of friends who would love to go out shooting, but if I take them out there really isn’t much excitement in it for them just to watch me.

Going to tackle these two together as they're linked.

This thread is for ideas and brainstorming, but don't take offence when (like i'm going to) a rebuttal is thrown up.

We absolutely have to take small steps and get going however we need to pick our battles. not only for the ones we can win but also the ones that make sense to fight in the first place. I'm talking about bringing someone out for a shot.

The first reply i would get from any Garda, TD, Minister or official of any sort is "that is what licenses are for" and they wouldn't be wrong. A training license costs €40 for three years and can be gotten at any age. If someone you know wants to dip their toes into the shooting waters then go for the training license. I recommend the training license over the full license for a couple of reasons:

They don't have to get or meet storage requirements
They don't need to pay for a gun (they'll use yours)
They will be under supervision at all times learning as well as getting some trigger time in
If they don't like it they are out €40 (over three years) and nothing more.
If they want to go for a full license the training license serves as their competence

If any group or interested body were to try and make a case for someone to be able to shoot on another persons' gun without some sort of authorisation or license it would be dismissed immediately so for that reason i'd leave that "wish list" item alone.

As for the plinking outside a range, definitely one to tackle and sooner rather than later. There are a host of reasons for this such as:

Safety, first and foremost. Lads not access to someone to zero a rifle.
Not requiring everyone to join a range for the above
Not requiring everyone to visit a range and break the law (day membership is illegal)
Preventing fraudulent applications (having to join a range, putting this on your FCA1 just to zero when you've no intention of using a range)

Munsterlad102 · 18-01-2021 8:42pm

Cass wrote: »

Going to tackle these two together as they're linked.

This thread is for ideas and brainstorming, but don't take offence when (like i'm going to) a rebuttal is thrown up.

We absolutely have to take small steps and get going however we need to pick our battles. not only for the ones we can win but also the ones that make sense to fight in the first place. I'm talking about bringing someone out for a shot.

The first reply i would get from any Garda, TD, Minister or official of any sort is "that is what licenses are for" and they wouldn't be wrong. A training license costs €40 for three years and can be gotten at any age. If someone you know wants to dip their toes into the shooting waters then go for the training license. I recommend the training license over the full license for a couple of reasons:
They don't have to get or meet storage requirements

They don't need to pay for a gun (they'll use yours)

They will be under supervision at all times learning as well as getting some trigger time in

If they don't like it they are out €40 (over three years) and nothing more.

If they want to go for a full license the training license serves as their competence

If any group or interested body were to try and make a case for someone to be able to shoot on another persons' gun without some sort of authorisation or license it would be dismissed immediately so for that reason i'd leave that "wish list" item alone.

As for the plinking outside a range, definitely one to tackle and sooner rather than later. There are a host of reasons for this such as:
Safety, first and foremost. Lads not access to someone to zero a rifle.

Not requiring everyone to join a range for the above

Not requiring everyone to visit a range and break the law (day membership is illegal)

Preventing fraudulent applications (having to join a range, putting this on your FCA1 just to zero when you've no intention of using a range)

Yeah I agree, it's definitely best to take small steps. If we pushed home the limited number of ranges, like in some areas it's a 1.5/2 hour round trip to a range and then what happens if you drop the rifle or mess up the zeroing. Even if we just get zeroing to be allowed outside of ranges, it's a gain we can further build on, "a stepping stone towards further independence", to quote the Big Fella. We shouldn't proceed with any plans unless we have a definitive course of action, we can't expect the government to completely overhaul the firearms legislation. I do think zeroing should be in that first push, but what do ye think should be in it too? Centrefire handguns or is that a step too far?

Cass · 18-01-2021 9:10pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

We shouldn't proceed with any plans unless we have a definitive course of action,

Agreed, and also a consensus of members, groups, associations and shooting bodies. Like them or not they're involved and it's silly to proceed alone when they are established and can provide the very unity we are seeking.

we can't expect the government to completely overhaul the firearms legislation.

That is simply not going to happen. The broken system still works so they'll ignore, as they have done, the pleas for a restatement of the acts.

I do think zeroing should be in that first push, but what do ye think should be in it too?

Whatever we think off it needs to be "innocent". Zeroing is a good starter because it was never meant to be so can be argued we only want what the Minister said was a mistake.

However pushing for say reloading and other firearm specific stuff is too much to start with because it requires not only an SI/Act amendment/repeal (IOW work), it will seen to lessen the restrictive nature of gun licensing will be met with serious opposition or outright dismissal.

Start small, baby steps that are easy to implement, require no money or action (really) on the part of the PTB, and won't be seen as "gun nuts seeking further proliferation of guns".

Alot of the other changes can be on club, range and association level without the need for Governmental/Garda interaction. Membership, PR, Lobbying (local to start with), open days, guest days, charity events, flyers, etc.

Centrefire handguns or is that a step too far?

Perhaps, but only from the point of view of the above.

Tea drinker · 18-01-2021 9:23pm

Strength thru unity... I am not a fan of the foxhunting but is a country sport and not disconnected from us.
Sure if you are a target only shooter what do you care... what do you care if Farmers can't keep a shotgun.
If we don't care for others sports then as individuals even as as our small divided groups we have no power.
When the FAI started getting involved in shooting affairs the politicians backed way off. That's the kind of clout we need to cultivate.
Stupid rows between the groups are not what we need, I more than have enough stress in the job, have no interest in adding to it in a "sport"
Why can't we all just get along ;-)

18-01-2021 9:40pm

Feisar wrote: »

To be fair lads on horses with dogs has nothing to do with shooting.

You are right, but whether you like it or not it is tied to the shooting community. PR has been mentioned a few times on this thread and for the shooting community to be allied to hunting foxes with dogs is like tying ourselves to a sinking ship. NEVER will this form of hunting be accepted by normies. It's much easier to explain why a farmer wants you to shoot a fox for vermin control and also a more humane way to kill the fox.

Hunting foxes with dogs is defended all the time on this shooting forum when someone speaks against it. How does that look for our community when someone comes along and reads these threads? I find it disheartening that more of ye don't see it this way because this is the kind of thing that immediately turns people off shooting.

That's really all I want to say about that.

Cass · 18-01-2021 10:26pm

The Rifleman wrote: »

Hunting foxes with dogs is defended all the time on this shooting forum when someone speaks against it. How does that look for our community when someone comes along and reads these threads? I find it disheartening that more of ye don't see it this way because this is the kind of thing that immediately turns people off shooting.

Fair point. however there is a reason.

How about ban pheasant shooting? I don't do it, don't eat them so won't bother me if its banned.

While we're at it ban coursing. It serves no purpose, i don't do that either and it won't affect me if banned.

Derogation is now pointless as the season for each species is enough to control their number so there will be no more derogation and with 50+% of the shooting community not affected that can be banned too.

How about Foxing. I mean if all the other forms of traditional hunting is banned why not that? We done nothing, didn't pull together when they went after the other stuff so what support do we have now?

Seeing as how most of the vermin stuff and some game stuff is banned might as well ban semi auto shotguns and any centrefire rifles as they're not needed.

Fishing, well that is easy. Doesn't involve shooting and i don't do it so that can be banned too.

While some of the above is clearly not as simple as its written you get the point. At what stage do we stop saying "not my circus, not my monkeys"?

We don't have to defend anything. Being on the defensive means we are somehow in the wrong or guilty/shameful. If its legal then the "offence" so many claim as justification for the canceling of everything is moot.

There is no point of acceptable loss. The notion of unity has been spoken about ad nauseum on this forum and i was one of the first to say, from first hand experience, how it doesn't exist, but it was brought up in this thread for this very reason and without getting any further than simple discussion "our own" have already begun to "cut the fat".

If we cannot find consensus on a discussion forum then how are we meant to find unity in real life and move forward a single cohesive community?

Grizzly 45 · 18-01-2021 10:37pm

[

QUOTE=The Rifleman;115965361]You are right, but whether you like it or not it is tied to the shooting community.

How???Thats like saying cars are the same as Xwing fighters from Star Wars.

PR has been mentioned a few times on this thread and for the shooting community to be allied to hunting foxes with dogs is like tying ourselves to a sinking ship. NEVER will this form of hunting be accepted by normies. It's much easier to explain why a farmer wants you to shoot a fox for vermin control and also a more humane way to kill the fox.

Ever hear of the Domino theory?,Plus there are more influencers and legislators in society in Ireland in the horsey set than there is in the shooting set.Whether we find it agrees or disagreeable on a personal level.
[I just cant figure out how they ever catch one of the smartest critters in nature, with all that racket and charging about the place]. We need allies as well to our cause, and the enemy of mine enemy...

How does that look for our community when someone comes along and reads these threads? I find it disheartening that more of ye don't see it this way because this is the kind of thing that immediately turns people off shooting.

Then maybe they should ask themselves WHY? Unless they are too narrow-minded to ask us? And they will get the following answer...
I
'ts not about whether we hunt with a gun or a pack of hounds. It's to those who wish to ban it a part of a totalitarian CLASS WAR iconography.IE they perceive it that anyone on a horse dressed in hunting pink or out with a firearm is some upper-class triple barrelled named chinless wonder twit, whose ancestors oppressed the workers to build their fortunes and must be destroyed in any way possible. All you have o do is look at any of the anti websites in Ireland like NARA or Lenstir hunt sabs on FB to see this kind of Anarchostic/Socialist babble on their position IOW they don't give a flying Fiddlers FK about the ethics of this it is and always has been a political movement hijacked off the Bambiists,old dear animal lovers, and pearl clutchers. That has spilt over into violence, intimidation, arson, destruction of property, animal cruelty,and bomb-making.
I dont think any shooting organisation has ever needed to publish a manual like the Sabs have called "arson around with Auntie Alf" or needed to bring Ex Loyalist bomb makers to a hunt sab meeting in Dublin either.
THAT is why we are allied with hunting with horse and hound.Not because we outright approve of it, but because we are lumped into the same hole..So if you are going to be branded a bastard...Might as well act like one then.:mad:

Grizzly 45 · 18-01-2021 10:53pm

kick 1
They are not involved and will not do anything to help but they are quick out of the traps to run down those that are involved on committees and so on when something happens. If you have better ideas, volunteer and help.
Kick 2

They , like taxes and death, are part of life. Best ignored and walked away from. IE[ F88k the begrudgers]Where they are dangerous is when they decide to sabotage willfully and spitefully the good guy's work out of childish reasons.

FFS stop putting pictures of half decapitated foxes or car bonnets filled with woodcock on Facebook and so on, as it reinforces the stereotype and provides ammo to the enemies.
I am all for controlling foxes but FFS some of the pics are ridiculous.
Some people do not have a brain cell to spare.

On that point. I'd actually say post away if you must, but could you at least adjust your settings to PRIVATE or just post in private hunting & shooting groups? That simple job does seem to be too difficult for some Simps out there... Or they just do not give a...:rolleyes:

Munsterlad102 · 18-01-2021 11:08pm

Cass wrote: »

Agreed, and also a consensus of members, groups, associations and shooting bodies. Like them or not they're involved and it's silly to proceed alone when they are established and can provide the very unity we are seeking.

That is simply not going to happen. The broken system still works so they'll ignore, as they have done, the pleas for a restatement of the acts.

Whatever we think off it needs to be "innocent". Zeroing is a good starter because it was never meant to be so can be argued we only want what the Minister said was a mistake.

However pushing for say reloading and other firearm specific stuff is too much to start with because it requires not only an SI/Act amendment/repeal (IOW work), it will seen to lessen the restrictive nature of gun licensing will be met with serious opposition or outright dismissal.

Start small, baby steps that are easy to implement, require no money or action (really) on the part of the PTB, and won't be seen as "gun nuts seeking further proliferation of guns".

Alot of the other changes can be on club, range and association level without the need for Governmental/Garda interaction. Membership, PR, Lobbying (local to start with), open days, guest days, charity events, flyers, etc.

Perhaps, but only from the point of view of the above.

Just as I’m thinking about it now, maybe increasing the non restricted pistol capacity to 10 so you don’t have to go through the trouble to getting magazines pinned, or at the very least allowing 6 rounds for revolvers.

If we take a leaf out of the Canadians book and allow non restricted firearms to be used outside of ranges, but maybe that’s further down the road.

Feisar · 18-01-2021 11:19pm

Cass wrote: »

This thread is for ideas and brainstorming, but don't take offence when (like i'm going to) a rebuttal is thrown up.

You’ll have to try harder to offend me!

Grizzly 45 · 19-01-2021 12:01am

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Just as I’m thinking about it now, maybe increasing the non restricted pistol capacity to 10 so you don’t have to go through the trouble to getting magazines pinned, or at the very least allowing 6 rounds for revolvers.

If we take a leaf out of the Canadians book and allow non restricted firearms to be used outside of ranges, but maybe that’s further down the road.

I would consider if we got these things sorted ou in Ireland by this time next year a job of work done.

1] A written assurance in the Dail form the minister in charge from our revelant orgs that there will be no further fukups with the pigeon deregation this or any other years.

2] A written response to a Dail question, from relevant orgs, that for the 21 seasons the deer licenses will be issued by Sept 1st. Will also show which one has an intrest in actually looking out for its members too.

3]
Kind of an "UP yours Govt" this one
That we push for a proof house to be re-established here in the ROI, as it will be now uneconomical to ship firearms to the Continental EU to have them proofed for steel shot, and the paperwork for ex and re-import from the UK is now too arduous and impossible for the DOJ to handle in the COVID due to being understaffed. Ireland is also obligated to provide this service now as it is stated EU practise, and it is now the equivalent of us having to drive to France for an NCT. As well as the point of product liability with the fact we have some "gunsmiths" here selling guns that are dreadful constructions and are possible Wli E Coyote "ACME" quality with possibly the same results.
They signed us up to this...They can provide the service to test these guns.

4] Push for the "safe spaces to shoot" in as many counties as possible Whether indoors or some outdoor range or even former disused ex military ranges]. Still a few about since when the Brits went home 100 years ago.

5] We start growing the Green party membership with "active members":)

tudderone · 19-01-2021 12:07am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I would consider if we got these things sorted ou in Ireland by this time next year a job of work done.

1] A written assurance in the Dail form the minister in charge from our revelant orgs that there will be no further fukups with the pigeon deregation this or any other years.

2] A written response to a Dail question, from relevant orgs, that for the 21 seasons the deer licenses will be issued by Sept 1st. Will also show which one has an intrest in actually looking out for its members too.

3]
Kind of an "UP yours Govt" this one
That we push for a proof house to be re-established here in the ROI, as it will be now uneconomical to ship firearms to the Continental EU to have them proofed for steel shot, and the paperwork for ex and re-import from the UK is now too arduous and impossible for the DOJ to handle in the COVID due to being understaffed. Ireland is also obligated to provide this service now as it is stated EU practise, and it is now the equivalent of us having to drive to France for an NCT. As well as the point of product liability with the fact we have some "gunsmiths" here selling guns that are dreadful constructions and are possible Wli E Coyote "ACME" quality with possibly the same results.
They signed us up to this...They can provide the service to test these guns.

4] Push for the "safe spaces to shoot" in as many counties as possible Whether indoors or some outdoor range or even former disused ex military ranges]. Still a few about since when the Brits went home 100 years ago.

5] We start growing the Green party membership with "active members":)

OOH i dunno about that, Grizz, anything like that in Ireland turns into a cash cow/scam run by some bent TD's brother in law. The NCT springs to mind, thats a complete racket.

Mississippi. · 19-01-2021 12:10am

I support everything yous are suggesting in this thread especially the plinking as I have a 28ft/lb airrifle and 12 bad acres but unfortunately no innovative ideas to help it all happen

tudderone · 19-01-2021 12:17am

Mississippi. wrote: »

I support everything yous are suggesting in this thread especially the plinking as I have a 28ft/lb airrifle and 12 bad acres but unfortunately no innovative ideas to help it all happen

Thats a massive way into shooting sports in the Uk, Europe, America and practically everywhere else apart from here, namely air rifle shooting. It can be done anywhere, old industrial buildings converted into ranges, village halls, barns etc, no licence needed.

Of course here the 12 ft/lb air rifle is treated like a .308 :rolleyes:, and the range needed has to meet the same specs afaik.

Grizzly 45 · 19-01-2021 12:18am

tudderone wrote: »

OOH i dunno about that, Grizz, anything like that in Ireland turns into a cash cow/scam run by some bent TD's brother in law. The NCT springs to mind, thats a complete racket.

Not if it is staffed by foreigners it won't.;) we don't have any proof masters here,so they have to come from the continent, and if they can issue free deer licenses, why not free proofing?FIK it has also got to be a full state body,not some semi private-public money maker. Otherwise, it would have been hoyed out along time ago in Germany.Like DHL/Deutshe Post:rolleyes:

dto001 · 19-01-2021 3:58pm

I think here there should be a 2 pronged approach to bringing Hunting shooting into a good light:
1: hound the politicians from personal to the various groups and increase PR
2: the old hearts and minds approach, Like we did at our club release Adult birds early on in spring with the kids of one of the local schools, We were hoping to do it every year but the covid put a stop to it for now which would educate them and the teachers from what I saw.
I've also seen in the UK that they collect Prepared game and donate it to the homeless groups and to help feed a lot of people (although I see one charity refused it because of the anti's) but if you keep at it eventually you can not only help people but you can also shame the Anti's and also no politician would try to go against a charity (well you would hope not)

Mississippi. · 19-01-2021 6:10pm

dto001 wrote: »

(although I see one charity refused it because of the anti's) but if you keep at it eventually you can not only help people but you can also shame the Anti's and also no politician would try to go against a charity (well you would hope not)

Yeah, even the Irish Cancer society refused funding here because it came from a hunt

Munsterlad102 · 19-01-2021 9:06pm

dto001 wrote: »

I think here there should be a 2 pronged approach to bringing Hunting shooting into a good light:
1: hound the politicians from personal to the various groups and increase PR
2: the old hearts and minds approach, Like we did at our club release Adult birds early on in spring with the kids of one of the local schools, We were hoping to do it every year but the covid put a stop to it for now which would educate them and the teachers from what I saw.
I've also seen in the UK that they collect Prepared game and donate it to the homeless groups and to help feed a lot of people (although I see one charity refused it because of the anti's) but if you keep at it eventually you can not only help people but you can also shame the Anti's and also no politician would try to go against a charity (well you would hope not)

I really like your 2nd suggestion but I have a few points to critique your first, if you don't mind. If we hound politicians they could always just ignore us and they could always just bin our letters, which is a probability so that won't really be a source of PR. I strongly agree that we need to increase PR, but I think that doing interviews in local newspapers/radio stations. Also it is essential that we have public figures, someone to put a face to a message, charisma is a must.

Does anyone know if any big party has an official pro gun stance? I was talking to one of the lads from the National Party any he said that they in favour of a "Swiss system", where people can own military grade firearms for national defense, with military training of course so Joe Soap can't just go out and buy an AK47. I'm not sure I agree with this, but it's certainly a step in the right direction, even if it's coming from the polar opposite attitude. Maybe worth giving them a vote if they're the only pro gun party.

Also just as I think of it, if the gun community did a big fund raiser for charity and got national news coverage we could really get some notoriety that way. Whatever that fundraiser should be, I think it should be more target shooting aimed so it would be held in a range for example. My logic for that is it's really not the farmers or hunters that are getting their firearms banned, but more the target shooters. A lot of people don't know that target shooting is a thing, so I think this would be a great PR approach as it gets our name out there and gets people thinking about us.

tudderone · 19-01-2021 9:21pm

Mississippi. wrote: »

Yeah, even the Irish Cancer society refused funding here because it came from a hunt

They cannot be as stuck for money as they bang on about then can they ? If they can refuse money like that.

Grizzly 45 · 19-01-2021 10:16pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I really like your 2nd suggestion but I have a few points to critique your first, if you don't mind. If we hound politicians they could always just ignore us and they could always just bin our letters, which is a probability so that won't really be a source of PR.

I strongly agree that we need to increase PR, but I think that doing interviews in local newspapers/radio stations. Also it is essential that we have public figures, someone to put a face to a message, charisma is a must.

And you will be committing suicide if you don't have proper PR training to do this right. I speak from personal experience in being involved in a documentary with a shooting segment made in Ireland,and we as a community have seen TWO hatchet jobs done by national media, and two disastrous interviews, where one William Egan[Solr] was set up to be a fall guy,and the last was NARGC playing to a stereotype of two gammons bemoaning the non-ability to shoot pheasants in a covid pandemic.:rolleyes:

A good media PR person would have physically pulled Egan out of that debate by the scruff of his legal collar if need be before it had even started that night on Primetime when they would have heard of their opponent, and told the NARGC lads. Go home get the suits and ties on and this will be filmed in an office location when you get back.

I can't empathise this enough!! PR is a deadly serious role these days, and it's why multinationals down HAVE to take it seriously.ESp us as gun owners and hunters. We can't just let some good ol boy at the job because, well,he is grand craic, and sure he can write a nice letter, as his handwriting is lovely.
If you want a PR figure.You need somone that is NOT the sterotype of what the public thinks is a gunowner.
The days of the quilted jacketed, moleskins and fedora/ tweed cap/hunter wellies or baseball cap-wearing in "retard mode"[backwards] and the "I'll give up ma guns "T-shirt wearing PR face of shooting types are OVER! We need a woman/disabled/ethnic minority/trans or a combo of those to represent us as PRIOW we have to smash a stereotype and show that it is "normal" for everyone to be a gun owner /hunter.

Just an example of how different media handles a story when faced by a person who knows their stuff and has some PR training. Katja Treibel of Treibel Waffen, Spandau Berlin doing an interview on blank firing pistols and self-defence stuff for a German TV station. One of the toughest women I know. She was undergoing Chemo for breast cancer when she did this interview [2X score, woman, disability] Watch the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTHTrVroZfY&t=1219s

Does anyone know if any big party has an official pro-gun stance? I was talking to one of the lads from the National Party any he said that they in favour of a "Swiss system", where people can own military-grade firearms for national defence, with military training of course so Joe Soap can't just go out and buy an AK47. I'm not sure I agree with this, but it's certainly a step in the right direction, even if it's coming from the polar opposite attitude. Maybe worth giving them a vote if they're the only pro-gun party.

None of them has a pro-gun stance here, harks probably back to the civil war and Blueshirts no doubt!:rolleyes:
As for the Naz...Er National Party and Herr Barrett, I'd run far away ...Very quickly...from that edjit and his party:eek:.

Yer man that had Brownells Ireland supported them on the basis of this idea of the Swiss militia.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
What might work in Switzerland, would no doubt become an utter shambles here.
"Joe Soap" in Switzerland, can actually own and possess a full-auto firearm, depending on his region and canton. It's a totally different mindset and traditional outlook to Ireland, and the idea of having a "minuteman" style militia had a lot to do also with Switzerlands terrain and isolation of families and communities.

If you want to give your vote or support to the only political movement that actually has a written policy on firearms ownership and self-defence. I'd suggest Libertarian here in Ireland. Free Democrats Ireland, or Libertarian Ireland.

PS "Military grade" TRANS. Your rifle /equipment was made for a govt contract to supply Xhundred thousand units, by the lowest bidder possible, in the quickest amount of time within a broad allowance of tolerances on that rifle or equipment.
I do not own "military-grade" anything for the above reasons.:D

Grizzly 45 · 19-01-2021 10:31pm

Mississippi. wrote: »

Yeah, even the Irish Cancer society refused funding here because it came from a hunt

Plenty of other charities that are short of money and not indoctrinated to donate to.

tudderone · 19-01-2021 11:27pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Plenty of other charities that are short of money and not indoctrinated to donate to.

HMMMM, but cancer is something i and probably everyone here has some experience of. Either people we know or ourselves suffering from a filthy unfair disease, that shows no signs of being defeated.

Cass · 20-01-2021 12:53am

I'll make this post short and sweet.

We'v covered a lot of good ground with excellent ideas and suggestions, so now it moves onto how do we implement this. Some good suggestions so far but lets see if we can list a few ideas on how to start into a press/PR/political push for the sport.

My intention is to start recording ideas on the various steps then centralising them all and creating a plan.

tudderone · 20-01-2021 1:23am

Cass wrote: »

I'll make this post short and sweet.

We'v covered a lot of good ground with excellent ideas and suggestions, so now it moves onto how do we implement this. Some good suggestions so far but lets see if we can list a few ideas on how to start into a press/PR/political push for the sport.

My intention is to start recording ideas on the various steps then centralising them all and creating a plan.

First thing to do is get the alphabet soup of various shooting orgs to get together and sing off the same hymn sheet, i won't be holding my breath.

JP22 · 20-01-2021 1:43am

tudderone wrote: »

First thing to do is get the alphabet soup of various shooting orgs to get together and sing off the same hymn sheet, i won't be holding my breath.

+1

Tea drinker · 20-01-2021 2:16am

tudderone wrote: »

First thing to do is get the alphabet soup of various shooting orgs to get together and sing off the same hymn sheet, i won't be holding my breath.

But members need to see that their leadership is engaging with others and isn't anti social. It's not going to do them any favours, regardless of how much they like the lads or how much work is done locally, if we don't make a unified and visible stance, visible to politicians, we're wasting our time.

JP22 · 20-01-2021 2:30am

Tea drinker wrote: »

But members need to see that their leadership is engaging with others and isn't anti social. It's not going to do them any favours, regardless of how much they like the lads or how much work is done locally, if we don't make a unified and visible stance, visible to politicians, we're wasting our time.

I agree. Several politicians, some members of game clubs, spoke and backed game shooting when last lockdowns were introduced.

Have any of our organisations personally written to these politician's seeking their views on and their support for shooting/game shooting/fishing (rural pursuits).

Maybe these politicians would support us more if they were written to, met in person, who knows, it will cost little to write to them or meet in person.

Grolschevik · 20-01-2021 2:45am

As I said above , I'm a supportive outsider. I also work as and with journalists and PR people. In terms of PR and media, there have been a few very important points made here that relate to public support.

Many of you won't like my argumaent, but here it is.

First, some selected quotes, with the what I reckon are the most relevant bits bolded:

The Rifleman wrote: »

You are right, but whether you like it or not it is tied to the shooting community. PR has been mentioned a few times on this thread and for the shooting community to be allied to hunting foxes with dogs is like tying ourselves to a sinking ship. NEVER will this form of hunting be accepted by normies. It's much easier to explain why a farmer wants you to shoot a fox for vermin control and also a more humane way to kill the fox.

Hunting foxes with dogs is defended all the time on this shooting forum when someone speaks against it. How does that look for our community when someone comes along and reads these threads? I find it disheartening that more of ye don't see it this way because this is the kind of thing that immediately turns people off shooting.

Cass wrote: »

Fishing is considered as much a "bloodsport" as any and they suffer the same crap we do. Surely we can support them and them us?

I don't think it is seen as a bloodsport by most people in the same way as The Hunt. See below.

riffmongous wrote: »

Europe is the way to go, the US is poison at the moment and it's got almost nothing in common with the Irish experience anyway. Look to the central European countries which have very high gun ownership rates and more importantly imo, an actual broad culture of hunting and shooting where the people don't all come off as trumpist gun nuts or the remains of the gentry,
Then focus as much on the outdoor/nature/technical aspects as the shooting at the start as it's far more socially acceptable at the moment and just as interesting.

johnboy1298 wrote: »

I'd say the biggest thing you could do to further the image of shooting in Ireland is to ban fox hunting with dogs.. I have no problem with shooting birds, deer or foxes for that matter etc but seeing a group of dogs go after a fox is, to me at least, unnecessary. It's something that tarnishes the whole of gun sports as it is cruel and there is no way of explaining the need for it that doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone who doesn't do it. I love the outdoors and often thought about trying shooting but I'd never want to be involved with anyone associated with hunting foxes.

Cass wrote: »

Here is one of our biggest hurdles. The other sports.

I don't agree with some things but i don't argue against the lads doing it. Its this "give an inch" attitude that has us splintered and always on the back foot.

Once again it comes back to death by a thousand cuts.

We need to be able to work together which means we have to respect other variations of the sport .

berettaman wrote: »

This is spot on.
I was listening to a podcast recently (Was it the 2 Johnnies ? can't remember ) and yer man mentioned going shooting. It was refreshing to hear someone talk about going out after rabbits.

FFS stop putting pictures of half decapitated foxes or car bonnets filled with woodcock on Facebook and so on, as it reinforces the stereotype and provides ammo to the enemies.

Cass wrote: »

Stop posting pictures of overly "gruesome" shots. I hunt and some of the pictures i see make me wonder why anyone would post such a thing. This imagery will never be able to be explained to those not used to hunting and visuals will be remembered quicker than a good speech.

Ok, heere's my argument. Again, as an interested ousider who works with the media:

The "domino effect"/"death by a thousand cuts" thing is a 'slippery slope' argument. It doesn't wash for something like hunting fox with horses and dogs. Most of the public see that as being in a completely different league.

It's a bit like this: for example, when you think about it philosophically and ethically, eating sausages is on the same 'moral' scale as, say, fur farming, but the average punter doesn't see it like that.

Because they prefer NOT to think about it like that, to its logical conclusion. That's why I think that fishing isn't held in the same low regard among ordinary urban punters as fox-hunting is.

The last thing you want is to be associated in the public mind with support for hunting fox with horses and dogs. You're only going to lose in any association with that in the public mind.

Mississippi. wrote: »

Yeah, even the Irish Cancer society refused funding here because it came from a hunt

You want the ordinary punter to see gun use as on the level of fishing and sausage eating and mouse traps and rat poison, things they don't see or don't want to see as in even being near to the same ethical territory as something like fur farming, to continue that analogy/example. Even the leather industry has managed to successfully keep its distance from fur, except with hardcore vegans.

Cass wrote: »

In terms of public opinion how about things like public days. Specifically for people that have never shot. If it gets new members then brilliant but the purpose could be to introduce people to the sport of shooting in a controlled environment and alleviate their fears and misconceptions surrounding firearms. This can happen on ranges and with club (gun club) days too.

This ^^^.

Also bonus points for playing up the sports angle: biathlon, skiing, Olympic target shooting etc. There are thousands of airsofters, too. Connect; don't slag them off as children or Mittys.

Connect with the university gun clubs. Trinity has its own small range.

Cut out any political talk that comes across as overly American gun rightsy.
Cut out slagging off politicians and guards and journalists.
Cut out anything that could be interpreted as alt-right.
Cut out sovereign citizen/freeman/resisting tyranny stuff. There was at least one on this thread already.
Cut out talking of Eurofascism and cultural marxism etc. These are known right-wing tropes that media will pick up on.

Be seen to be the respectful, professional, sportmen and women, some of whom who perform a valuable service culling what farmers see as pests, and others who engage in internationally recognised sports.

Don't be associated with red-coated, red-faced, twice-a-year law firm partners frothing at the mouth and blooding each other in the woods when not riding roughshod through some smallholders land and scaring his sheep -- because THAT (unfair or not) is the public and media perception of The Hunt.

THis is just my take. I don't want to start or get into an argument.

Oh, and the media isn't interested in truth, balance and accuracy any more. It's about sales, clicks, lowest common denominator. Goes for Prime Time as much as any tabloid rag. They can't be trusted. Even a supportive journos words will come across differently after editors get their hands on it and pictures and headlines added in.

meathstevie · 20-01-2021 3:02am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I really like your 2nd suggestion but I have a few points to critique your first, if you don't mind. If we hound politicians they could always just ignore us and they could always just bin our letters, which is a probability so that won't really be a source of PR.

And you will be committing suicide if you don't have proper PR training to do this right. I speak from personal experience in being involved in a documentary with a shooting segment made in Ireland,and we as a community have seen TWO hatchet jobs done by national media, and two disastrous interviews, where one William Egan[Solr] was set up to be a fall guy,and the last was NARGC playing to a stereotype of two gammons bemoaning the non-ability to shoot pheasants in a covid pandemic.:rolleyes:

A good media PR person would have physically pulled Egan out of that debate by the scruff of his legal collar if need be before it had even started that night on Primetime when they would have heard of their opponent, and told the NARGC lads. Go home get the suits and ties on and this will be filmed in an office location when you get back.

I can't empathise this enough!! PR is a deadly serious role these days, and it's why multinationals down HAVE to take it seriously.ESp us as gun owners and hunters. We can't just let some good ol boy at the job because, well,he is grand craic, and sure he can write a nice letter, as his handwriting is lovely.
If you want a PR figure.You need somone that is NOT the sterotype of what the public thinks is a gunowner.
The days of the quilted jacketed, moleskins and fedora/ tweed cap/hunter wellies or baseball cap-wearing in "retard mode"[backwards] and the "I'll give up ma guns "T-shirt wearing PR face of shooting types are OVER! We need a woman/disabled/ethnic minority/trans or a combo of those to represent us as PRIOW we have to smash a stereotype and show that it is "normal" for everyone to be a gun owner /hunter.

Just an example of how different media handles a story when faced by a person who knows their stuff and has some PR training. Katja Treibel of Treibel Waffen, Spandau Berlin doing an interview on blank firing pistols and self-defence stuff for a German TV station. One of the toughest women I know. She was undergoing Chemo for breast cancer when she did this interview [2X score, woman, disability] Watch the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTHTrVroZfY&t=1219s

None of them has a pro-gun stance here, harks probably back to the civil war and Blueshirts no doubt!:rolleyes:
As for the Naz...Er National Party and Herr Barrett, I'd run far away ...Very quickly...from that edjit and his party:eek:.

Yer man that had Brownells Ireland supported them on the basis of this idea of the Swiss militia.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
What might work in Switzerland, would no doubt become an utter shambles here.
"Joe Soap" in Switzerland, can actually own and possess a full-auto firearm, depending on his region and canton. It's a totally different mindset and traditional outlook to Ireland, and the idea of having a "minuteman" style militia had a lot to do also with Switzerlands terrain and isolation of families and communities.

If you want to give your vote or support to the only political movement that actually has a written policy on firearms ownership and self-defence. I'd suggest Libertarian here in Ireland. Free Democrats Ireland, or Libertarian Ireland.

PS "Military grade" TRANS. Your rifle /equipment was made for a govt contract to supply Xhundred thousand units, by the lowest bidder possible, in the quickest amount of time within a broad allowance of tolerances on that rifle or equipment.
I do not own "military-grade" anything for the above reasons.:D

Grizzly, that video was enlightening. The attitude of some people on that panel was simply mind boggling. Nearly trying to blame legal firearms owners for the fact that violent criminals are violent.

Talking about twisting facts beyond breaking point and then some.

This leads me on to Cass looking for suggestions; first and foremost as country sports and shooting sports participants we must at every opportunity challenge the fallacy that there is even the remotest of connections between violent gun crime and our activities.

Certain sections of the media and politicians have peddled that suggestion too often to score cheap points using the “all guns are bad” mantra when it suits them.

We must challenge it individually in conversation with colleagues, family and friends and through our representative organisations in the media and on social media. Again as mentioned, being PR savvy is essential.

berettaman · 20-01-2021 1:23pm

tudderone wrote: »

First thing to do is get the alphabet soup of various shooting orgs to get together and sing off the same hymn sheet, i won't be holding my breath.

I like the idea but almost impossible. Some of these guys are settling scores and undermining each other just to be contrary.
I remember that one person would quiet happily preside over the ashes of our sport so long as he gets called the king. Too many fiefdoms and so often good ideas and olive branches are stopped at committee level. Some one will have a quiet word in your ear and that's that. "Original thinking, are you mad?";)

berettaman · 20-01-2021 1:24pm

Cass wrote: »

I'll make this post short and sweet.

We'v covered a lot of good ground with excellent ideas and suggestions, so now it moves onto how do we implement this. Some good suggestions so far but lets see if we can list a few ideas on how to start into a press/PR/political push for the sport.

My intention is to start recording ideas on the various steps then centralising them all and creating a plan.

This I like . Make a list and lets get cracking.
I know one group interested in a pro hunting PR campaign.

tudderone · 20-01-2021 2:06pm

berettaman wrote: »

I like the idea but almost impossible. Some of these guys are settling scores and undermining each other just to be contrary.
I remember that one person would quiet happily preside over the ashes of our sport so long as he gets called the king. Too many fiefdoms and so often good ideas and olive branches are stopped at committee level. Some one will have a quiet word in your ear and that's that. "Original thinking, are you mad?";)

They need to be fcuked out of it and let someone with a brain in. But seeing as we had a load of idiots flying kites to the doj, in the shape of scovi, i won't hold my breath, again

.

Grizzly 45 · 20-01-2021 2:06pm

tudderone wrote: »

HMMMM, but cancer is something i and probably everyone here has some experience of. Either people we know or ourselves suffering from a filthy unfair disease, that shows no signs of being defeated.

ICS doesn't have the monopoly on the cancer disease.
Or on charity donations.
Saying this as one who has lost a parent to this and will probably lose an acquaintance and future father in law to this within the next 12 months.:( There are enough palliative care and hospices around the place who can't afford high morals when it comes to financing.Pick a charity,they all need money.

Grizzly 45 · 20-01-2021 2:19pm

meathstevie wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Grizzly, that video was enlightening. The attitude of some people on that panel was simply mind boggling. Nearly trying to blame legal firearms owners for the fact that violent criminals are violent.

Wasn't so much about the content.But just to show how well a very media savvy and trained PR person could deal with an utterly loaded against them panel.Plus it wasn't the usual "Shout down and interrupt your opponent to prove you are right!" type of Irish political discussion programme.:rolleyes:

Now,put yourself or one of our reps in this position,and see how they/you would have handled it?;)

This leads me on to Cass looking for suggestions; first and foremost as country sports and shooting sports participants we must at every opportunity challenge the fallacy that there is even the remotest of connections between violent gun crime and our activities.

100%

We must challenge it individually in conversation with colleagues, family and friends and through our representative organisations in the media and on social media. Again as mentioned, being PR savvy is essential.

Yup, and as I said we ALL should be able to rattle off 10 points by heart and back them up with facts on why we are gun owners or hunters at any given opportunity.

Grizzly 45 · 20-01-2021 2:26pm

tudderone wrote: »

First thing to do is get the alphabet soup of various shooting orgs to get together and sing off the same hymn sheet, i won't be holding my breath.

Be easier to organise a great herding and cattle style drive of cats than get that lot into one room.Let alone agree on a unified policy.:rolleyes:

The best outcome on this would be that we get an "attack one,you attack us all" and non-aggression pact between the organisations. Otherwise, we just end up with a SCOVI scenario again.

Grizzly 45 · 20-01-2021 3:25pm

Grolschevik wrote:

The last thing you want is to be associated in the public mind with support for hunting fox with horses and dogs. You're only going to lose in any association with that in the public mind.

You want the ordinary punter to see gun use as on the level of fishing and sausage eating and mouse traps and rat poison, things they don't see or don't want to see as in even being near to the same ethical territory as something like fur farming, to continue that analogy/example. Even the leather industry has managed to successfully keep its distance from fur, except with hardcore vegans.

This ^^^.

Also bonus points for playing up the sports angle: biathlon, skiing, Olympic target shooting etc. There are thousands of airsofters, too. Connect; don't slag them off as children or Mittys.

We have tried this, and both the airsofters and historical re-enactors DID NOT WANT to be associated with "gun lovers" Despite the reenactors being affected by the Euro dictatorship ruling on blank firing weapons,and the airsoft having their stuff described as both firearms in national and EU legislation if it goes above 1 joule of energy. Both of them got slapped despite us supporting airsoft in 2008 as firearms owners... So been there,done that...

Connect with the university gun clubs. Trinity has its own small range

.

ONE university in how many in Ireland now?Take a WAG what would happen to anyone to suggest opening one today on any other campus in Ireland?:p

Cut out any political talk that comes across as overly American gun rights

We try to,as it is a fallacious comparison on so many levels. However the majority of the norms are MEDIA/US MSM educated of their firearms knowledge on US mass shootings, US movies, and media highlighted gun crime or events...Ergo we always get this "well we don't want to be like, look at America!" arguments. We can even point out parts of our legislation that is influenced by people making decisions in legislation and police weapons choices that is solely and utterly based on "Hollywood gun knowledge"

Why are media ,AGS and journalists above reproach or critique? They are the ones making stupid mistakes or statements and are deserving of slagging if they screwup.As its their stupidity that affects us:rolleyes:

Cut out anything that could be interpreted as alt-right.

I'd expect a leftist to say that.:D Does that also include anything ALt Left as well??:D

Cut out talking of Eurofascism and cultural marxism etc. These are known right-wing tropes that media will pick up on.

Sorry Comrade:),thats getting now into political choices and "wrong think" opinions.

Be seen to be the respectful, professional, sportmen and women, some of whom who perform a valuable service culling what farmers see as pests, and others who engage in internationally recognised sports.

Don't be associated with red-coated, red-faced, twice-a-year law firm partners frothing at the mouth and blooding each other in the woods when not riding roughshod through some smallholders land and scaring his sheep -- because THAT (unfair or not) is the public and media perception of The Hunt.

Unfortunately, you have missed something critical here. Politics and money are more involved in the horsey set in Ireland than anywhere else in the World. Whats our bloodstock industry worth to this country PA? This also includes the fox hunting set and there are too many movers and shakers behind the scenes to alienate, as they are also the occasional hunter in there as well. While we may not agree on this sport.it has too much influence to be disassociated from entirely. we dont have to wave flags from the rooftops to show our support,but it certainly is not an ally we can disassociate from.

Oh, and the media isn't interested in truth, balance and accuracy any more. It's about sales, clicks, lowest common denominator. Goes for Prime Time as much as any tabloid rag. They can't be trusted. Even a supportive journos words will come across differently after editors get their hands on it and pictures and headlines added in.

We figured that one out a looonggg time ago:D Agree 100%

You have some good points Grov:).
But I'm afraid you have a bit to learn on what we are facing is Green/Leftist/Anarchist run groups that want to abolish field sports in total,as well as gun-ownership, horse racing, keeping pets and us all eating lettuce while living in fear of being eaten by wolf packs and bears in rewilded areas of the countryside. Not all in one group obviously but these are stated doctrines of the animal liberationists. Suggest you have a look at out ICABS thread, then at groups like Lenstir hunt sabs on FB etc. They make no bones about this being a class struggle to be brought about by violence.

On the opposite side we have the hoplophobic lot in Govts and in the public egged on by MSM that "ALL guns are bad and must be banned, or only left in the hands of trained police or military" types to deal with.
They dont care whether you are a battle vest AR carrying pickup truck driving Trump supporter,or you are a Panama hat-wearing plus two tweed-wearing side by side carrier...It's the object you hold...The GUN that they are frightened of and this is not helped by media whether real or news reporting....this is the reality we are dealing with on this front.

Cass · 20-01-2021 3:58pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

As I said above , I'm a supportive outsider. I also work as and with journalists and PR people. In terms of PR and media, there have been a few very important points made here that relate to public support.

I'm not going to quote your entire post as there is no need for my reply but i wanted to address one point in your post which i've addressed previously, but feel it needs more explanation.

The "horsey" crowd.

I don't do it, have no interest in it, but i will not now or ever throw them under the bus in terms of not supporting them for the sake of public image. If that causes us to lose support from some factions, the general public, etc. then its a price we have to pay for one simple reason.

We cannot attempt to heal old wounds and try to stand together when our first thought is to cut loose any part of the sporting community we feel is too "public" or "distasteful" to try and defend.

Horse and hound will always be the most public part of our sport because of the way in which it is carried out. Next, in my opinion, is hare coursing. They are large groups making lots of noise and so will always stand out in a sport where the art of the sport is quietness, stalking, and in a lot of cases solitary actions. IOW a lad or two out hunting/stalking wouldn't be seen if you were looking for him/them because that part of the sport demands it.

So what we need is a way to either try to make it work for us or work around it while including it in our sport. I refuse to accept we must cut ties because, and i did not mean this as a quotable line, a death by a thousand cuts starts with the first, and they shouldn't be the first.

However i would genuinely and sincerely ask that you stay with us on this thread and this "plan". You have a good head, good ideas and even opposing views which in my opinion is 100 times more useful [a single opposing view] than 1000 with agreeing views. To start this and continue in the same old way will only leads us to the dead ends we've tried before so we need new ideas, fresh ideas and where necessary someone to call us out on what we're suggesting/proposing.

Cass · 20-01-2021 4:07pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'd expect a leftist to say that.:D Does that also include anything ALt Left as well??:D

I understand this was meant in gest but i agree with Grov. I said so at the start of this thread that its not political nor do i want it to become a political thread or sub thread of the Off-Topic thread.

Reading back through old posts, a lot of them mine, and i'm confused and bothered by the direction the forum is taking, and i do mean the forum. Every thread has some aspect of "Murica" in it and its pointless and irrelevant.

We're not America and for better or worse we are part of the EU. We have to start working the system instead of working against it. However that battle starts at home and it'll mean working with people we previously viewed as the opposition.

In recent days i've seen a great uptake in the number of posters contributing to the forum and not just this thread but others. New posters and existing ones that probably walked away from the forum because of the rhetoric that was so prevalent. There is a renewed sense of safety for people to post and more importantly they must feel like the attack that would come from any opposing view is lessening or gone. That is a great thing and It's why i've unsubscribed from the Off-Topic thread and won't be posting about American politics for the immediate future.

To that end i'm making a pledge to stop the divisiveness that has creeped into this forum, and as a Moderator i will be putting a "cap" on any such talk outside of the Off-Topic thread from this point on. It serves no purpose.

Now with that little speech out of the way lets get back to the business of this thread.

Feisar · 20-01-2021 5:21pm

One area in this I'm struggling with to get my head around is the idea what we can pull country sports in generally with us. Many of us start of in the shooting sports due to a hunting background in the family however there may be clay busters and paper punchers out there that are anti bloodsport.

Grolschevik · 20-01-2021 6:09pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We have tried this, and both the airsofters and historical re-enactors DID NOT WANT to be associated with "gun lovers".

Then you need to ask yourselves why that is, and address the reasons. And ask ‘why?’ about the reasons behind the reasons, and behind those reasons again. Also, you wouldn't give up if you didn't hit the mark with your first shot, would you?

“The MSM” isn’t a reason; it’s an excuse. Why does the media think that? What’s the basis for that belief? Why does that basis exist? What can you do to address those reasons?

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Politics and money are more involved in the horsey set in Ireland than anywhere else in the World. Whats our bloodstock industry worth to this country PA? This also includes the fox hunting set and there are too many movers and shakers behind the scenes to alienate, as they are also the occasional hunter in there as well. While we may not agree on this sport.it has too much influence to be disassociated from entirely. we dont have to wave flags from the rooftops to show our support,but it certainly is not an ally we can disassociate from.

Has that influence helped the cause of the ordinary shooter?

Cass wrote: »

The "horsey" crowd.

I don't do it, have no interest in it, but i will not now or ever throw them under the bus in terms of not supporting them for the sake of public image. If that causes us to lose support from some factions, the general public, etc. then its a price we have to pay for one simple reason.

and they shouldn't be the first.

Would they extend the same concern in your direction?

More generally, this forum is one of the public front windows into this world.
It regularly shows up on the front page of the site.
Ordinary punters may drift in, and I’m sure journalist have it bookmarked for the occasions they need it.

Thread titles and rhetoric are important because of this.
There’s always another way of wording stuff.

Instead of a thread title like “getting a pistol through the North”, call it “What are the rules on imports now?” Instead of “I got hundreds of bastard rats lasy night it was like a scene from ‘Nam”, write “I’ve found that setting up this way is very effective at rat control”.

I saw a thread recently about the virtues of a particular night sight. It could have been worded like “it enabled me to track the wounded animal into the undergrowth so I could humanely dispatch it”. But it was actually worded like “it ran off after I hit it but the sight picked up the heat of the fox’s intestines that were hanging out after my first shot, so I was able to find it and finish it off”.

Just put yourself in the position of a randomer wandering in and reading that.

Not getting at anyone, but language use and appearances are especially important to a sport that finds itself under threat.

Tea drinker · 20-01-2021 6:21pm

JP22 wrote: »

I agree. Several politicians, some members of game clubs, spoke and backed game shooting when last lockdowns were introduced.

Have any of our organisations personally written to these politician's seeking their views on and their support for shooting/game shooting/fishing (rural pursuits).

Maybe these politicians would support us more if they were written to, met in person, who knows, it will cost little to write to them or meet in person.

We need a list of politicians who we can work with and who we can't e.g. Eoghan Murphy had less than zero interest in shooting sports when I contacted his office.
How do we interface with these people, the heads of the various organisation make the representations? or all as individuals - to show the support that's available? There's a case and time I guess for both.

For hunting I think it's crucial we play the environmental angle, and by play I mean we are aware of the holistic effects on the environment shooting can have and behave in a manner that better fits that. What can we do to educate ourselves and move the shooting cause forward.
Target shooters I suppose there's less avenues there but not none. I'd have no problem photographing wildlife in the vicinity of clubs to prove the birds and rabbits flourish rather than get scared off with the sound of shooting.
What about wilded areas in clubs allowing songbirds to flourish, no pesticides etc.

meathstevie · 20-01-2021 6:22pm

Feisar wrote: »

One area in this I'm struggling with to get my head around is the idea what we can pull country sports in generally with us. Many of us start of in the shooting sports due to a hunting background in the family however there may be clay busters and paper punchers out there that are anti bloodsport.

First and foremost we’re all involved in country and or shooting sports. We’re either target shooters or hunters. If you don’t like hunting that’s fine if you do like hunting that’s fine. Think of it this way, as a rare steak eating hunter or a vegan target shooter who are going to be your political allies ? Fellow law abiding gun owners and country sports people or the anti everything professionally offended and protesting classes ?

Cass · 20-01-2021 7:02pm

Feisar wrote: »

........ however there may be clay busters and paper punchers out there that are anti bloodsport.

That is true and if so, well, so be it. We aren't pleasing everyone anyway so we have to move on with what we can change.

One area is language. We try to stop the use of the word weapon, rightly so, we can apply this to other areas. Its a sport we have and i reject the use of the above term because it signifies a negative. So if we all reject it and use the word sport or fieldsport its a small step but in the right direction.

We will have to change but not to the detriment of our sport or the values contained within.

Cass · 20-01-2021 7:14pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

Would they extend the same concern in your direction?

Great question, and one i'll admit to not haven considered.

Simple answer is I don't know. If they wish to be disconnected from the larger fieldsport name/community then so be it. That is not a defeatist attitude, but if some group or organisation does not affiliation then that is their choice, i'll respect (whether i agree with it or not) and move on with those that do wish to contribute.

More generally, this forum is one of the public front windows into this world.
It regularly shows up on the front page of the site.
Ordinary punters may drift in, and I’m sure journalist have it bookmarked for the occasions they need it.

Absolutely no conpsiracy theory there, it is used as such and not just by journalists or "outside sources". We have been told, directly, as much.

Thread titles and rhetoric are important because of this.
There’s always another way of wording stuff.

Laughing to myself about this as i just mentioned it above before i read and started to reply to your post. You're exactly right, for the reason you said and what i mentioned above.

Instead of a thread title like “getting a pistol through the North”, call it “What are the rules on imports now?” Instead of “I got hundreds of bastard rats lasy night it was like a scene from ‘Nam”, write “I’ve found that setting up this way is very effective at rat control”.

We have got the vast majority of people to stop using "buzz" words such as weapon so there is no reason why we cannot do the same with other words, however i don't want it to affect people's ability to post openly here so middle ground will have to be found. I don't want a "sanitized" forum for the sake of others at the cost of the community.

I saw a thread recently about the virtues of a particular night sight. It could have been worded like “it enabled me to track the wounded animal into the undergrowth so I could humanely dispatch it”. But it was actually worded like “it ran off after I hit it but the sight picked up the heat of the fox’s intestines that were hanging out after my first shot, so I was able to find it and finish it off”.

I get your point, but with reference to mine above i don't expect nor would i demand either a sanitiezed or pre-moderated forum. It destroys the flow of a thread/discussion and policing people's speech is not a road i want to travel.

I appreciate this seems like me shooting down each opinion and to an extent i suppose i am which leaves us back at square one. If we intend to move with the times and/or adapt to the current times we have to change and shooting is unique in that the topic itself is controversial regardless of wording. It'll be one of the "how to" topics that will require further thought and discussion. Trying to change the mindset of hundreds of thousands of people won't happen overnight.

Just put yourself in the position of a randomer wandering in and reading that.

I agree.

The one key factor, regarding the forum and it's members, is we are "used to" it and in keeping with the intention of a non sanitized forum there is going to be a lot more days of discussion on how best to move forward on that point.

Cass · 20-01-2021 7:21pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

How do we interface with these people, the heads of the various organisation make the representations? or all as individuals - to show the support that's available? There's a case and time I guess for both.

Correct, both.

We have big numbers, bigger than any single group, but with our community being spread over the 26 counties (for political reasons) we lose some of our clout. However we can and should start to flex our "political muscle" whether that is by individual writing sessions or group ones or ideally both, the so be it.

The biggest issue we have here is apathy. Th 2% rule. If we can make this the 10% or bigger rule we start to become noticed, and eventually listened to.

For hunting I think it's crucial we play the environmental angle, and by play I mean we are aware of the holistic effects on the environment shooting can have and behave in a manner that better fits that. What can we do to educate ourselves and move the shooting cause forward.

That is not a one sentence answer and as with the language use issue above one that requires a thread of its own to a degree, but will be tackled at some point.

Target shooters I suppose there's less avenues there but not none. I'd have no problem photographing wildlife in the vicinity of clubs to prove the birds and rabbits flourish rather than get scared off with the sound of shooting.
What about wilded areas in clubs allowing songbirds to flourish, no pesticides etc.

Take the MNSCI for example. Its a sanctuary and a conservationists wet dream. Its been inspected and found to have endangered and rare nesting birds that are not only living there but thriving and growing. The range was even designed to accommodate some species that were there is smaller numbers so as not to disturb them and because of that approach their populations have risen and continue to do so.

A credit to the shooting community even though as a range they have/had no responsibility to do as much as they did.

Grolschevik · 20-01-2021 7:23pm

I understand where you're coming from.

What I'm really getting at is trying to understand the roots of any negative public opinion, and how that can be changed. To a large part I think that opinion is based in ignorance rather than ideology. So, educational outreach, and positive public engagement with whoever.

Cass · 20-01-2021 7:28pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

What I'm really getting at is trying to understand the roots of any negative public opinion, and how that can be changed. To a large part I think that opinion is based in ignorance rather than ideology. So, educational outreach, and positive public engagement with whoever.

Ignorance plays its part, but so too unwillingness to listen. Guns are bad or "you're murderers" is an easy line to remember and emotion will always win out over facts so we need to combine both by giving an emotional, fact based, argument as to its merits which must also serve as a rebuttal to the baseless accusations levelled against us.

I believe, and i could be wrong, that the first step there is to destigmatize shooting/hunting. We have, and still do, treat it like a dirty secret for fear of reprisals and negative reactions. So the question then becomes how do we do this?

The next step is to create or implement a better social media presence than can at least counter the small, but highly voiced, anti shooting crowds. They are few in number but relentless in their goals and believe it or not we can learn from that.

BattleCorp · 20-01-2021 7:30pm

Cass wrote: »

Take the MNSCI for example. Its a sanctuary and a conservationists wet dream. Its been inspected and found to have endangered and rare nesting birds that are not only living there but thriving and growing. The range was even designed to accommodate some species that were there is smaller numbers so as not to disturb them and because of that approach their populations have risen and continue to do so.

A credit to the shooting community even though as a range they have/had no responsibility to do as much as they did.

And because of our ar5ehole EU masters, shooters there may also become a rare and endangered species due to the incoming ban on lead shot on wetlands................ as MNSCI is a wetland.

Cass · 20-01-2021 7:31pm

Due for implementation in 2030 i believe so we have time before it get drafted into law here.

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County