Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

molloyjh · 18-01-2021 12:19am

Must love hardship wrote: »

Do you hold up our current tactic of selection at world cups as a beacon of success??

The world cup isn't until 2023. Its not on in 2 weeks. Would be great to see an irish team try and build a larger player pool towards a world cup.

Ah yeah, sure we didn't cap anyone new last year with a view to the future at all.

Feck sake, why do so many people seem to think picking a load of young lads now is somehow the only way to plan for the future? Evolution, not revolution. How many other sides have thrown the baby out with the bathwater 2 1/2 years before a RWC? Being reactionary is every bit as bad as being conservative.

bilston · 18-01-2021 12:37am

Must love hardship wrote: »

Do you hold up our current tactic of selection at world cups as a beacon of success??

The world cup isn't until 2023. Its not on in 2 weeks. Would be great to see an irish team try and build a larger player pool towards a world cup.

Thats exactly what is happening

Off the top of my head (will probably forget someone) the following were capped in 2020.

Eric O'Sullivan
Will Connors
Caelan Doris
Max Deegan
Jamison Gibson Park
Billy Burns
James Lowe
Hugo Keenan
Shane Daly

So Farrell has tried to broaden the squad, the problem out of all those players. The problem as I see is that out of those players capped, only one is genuinely top level with the potential to become world class. So is Farrell picking the right uncapped players? Or is the talent not there?

Must love hardship · 18-01-2021 12:47am

I suggested 1 new cap in the 15 and a second in the 23.

Im Not exactly looking for last years u-20's to take the field..

Cj and Pete have both started our last 5 games against England and we haven't won 1 in 3 years, the last time we won was back in 18 when we had the younger back row...

They (along with others) have been cleaned out over the last 3 or 4 games by England. Normally with at least 2 of Billy, underhill and curry playing

I've suggested a BR of ruddock, leavy and Doris with Coombes on the bench for the Welsh match.. you have to look at other options.

England have really attacked our line-out. Stander is not exactly helping our line-out at 6ft. The four I named are proper line-out options to keep England guessing.

Also At least one of pete and/or stander will more than likely be playing over seas next season.

Lost Ormond · 18-01-2021 1:14am

Must love hardship wrote: »

I suggested 1 new cap in the 15 and a second in the 23.

Im Not exactly looking for last years u-20's to take the field..

Cj and Pete have both started our last 5 games against England and we haven't won 1 in 3 years, back when they were the younger back row...

They (along with others) have been cleaned out over the last 3 or 4 games by Billy, underhill and curry combo.

I've suggested a BR of ruddock, leavy and Doris with Coombes on the bench for the Welsh match.. you have to look at other options.

England have really attacked our line-out. Stander is not exactly helping our line-out at 6ft.

Also At least one of pete and/or stander will more than likely be playing over seas next season.

Leavy has been out for quite some time and is only getting back near what he could be and we dont know if he will be like what he was pre injury.
3 starts and 300 minutes across 8 games isnt really
Ruddock just isnt good enough for the top level to start consistently. he isnt a first choice top class international backrow.
England have attacked our lineout so why remove your best backrow lineout option in POM?

Must love hardship · 18-01-2021 1:25am

Festive Life wrote: »

Leavy has been out for quite some time and is only getting back near what he could be and we dont know if he will be like what he was pre injury.
3 starts and 300 minutes across 8 games isnt really
Ruddock just isnt good enough for the top level to start consistently. he isnt a first choice top class international backrow.
England have attacked our lineout so why remove your best backrow lineout option in POM?

Sorry i edited my previous post while you were posting..

Personally after watching the last few England v ireland games I dont believe in all the hype about o'mahonys superior line-out prowess.. I think ruddock and leavy offer similar options in the line-out and importantly more around the field. I'm not saying cut him loose entirely.. im just saying England has his and standers number...

They are only playing Wales( who in the last 12 months have only beaten Georgia & italy) its not like we are playing nz or south africa.

thomond2006 · 18-01-2021 1:26am

Wales (A)
France (H)

Italy (A)

Scotland (A)
England (H)

With that schedule, I'd expect few bolters in the 23 in the first two games. At the same time, Wales have been terrible and I'd like to see a few young benchers in that game. If Ireland lose of the first two and are likely out of the running for the Championship, then you have an ideal opportunity in the Italy game to rotate out some of the veterans and put in new faces.

Something for Wales like:

Healy/Kilcoyne, Herring, Porter, Beirne, Ryan, Stander, POM, Doris;
Murray, Sexton, Stockdale, Henshaw, Ringrose, Lowe, Keenan

Kelleher, EOS, Bealham, Baird, VDF, JGP, Healy, Larmour

Earls for me is someone who needs a big game next week against Leinster to put himself in the frame for selection. Ben Healy probably needs the start too.

Must love hardship · 18-01-2021 1:52am

Festive Life wrote: »

You have only 2 starters over 30 which doesnt make sense to get rid of virtually everyone at that stage of their career.

What sides who have done very well in a world cup have done what you suggest in years prior to the competition.

South africa 2019. Only 2 starters over 30 in final. And similar figures for England

thomond2006 · 18-01-2021 1:54am

Must love hardship wrote: »

South africa 2019. Only 2 starters over 30 in final.

I'd start 15 OAPs in a RWC final if they were the best players.

Dubinusa · 18-01-2021 3:23am

molloyjh wrote: »

Baird has been excellent for Leinster since his debut. Came on vs Saracens and didn't just not look out of place, he made a significant (positive) impact on the game. I think the guy is the real deal. I'd still have Henderson ahead of him now, but Baird should be targeting that starting green shirt in the short to medium term. Hes good enough for it.

The good news either way is that Ryan seems to be starting to find his old form again. He's been markedly better the last few outings than for the previous 12+ months. Having him, Hendo and Baird in our 23 is potentially going to be a very good place to be in the next year or so. Lets just hope we get to see the 3 of them fit and firing at the same time!

Not sure that Ryan has been poor. Tbf, he's not been as good as in the past but neither are Ireland or Leinster. Imo.
Big concern with his discipline lately tho.

Dubinusa · 18-01-2021 3:42am

It's probably going to be the usual lads, Healy, Murray POM etc.
Wales are rubbish, or have been. A win against them should be expected?
Keenan imo, is the best back 3 player we have. Great tackling, speed reads the game well and is improving. I'd have him in instead of the poor defense of Lowe and Stockdale. Conway I rate as a better all rounder also, but he's not played recently.
This will probably be Healy's last 6nations. I just don't see what he brings at this stage except experience. I would start EOS against Wales. Kilcoyne on the bench. Herring is deserving of his place. Imo. Kelleher for me is not good enough atm. Porter is safe until Furlong is healthy and fit. Locks would be Beirne / Ryan. Roux is thereabouts too.
The backrow is hard to call. On form it should be Ruddock, VDF and Stander. But I think Doris gets the 8 jersey with Stander at 6. POM will probably start at 7.
Murray and Sexton won't be dropped no matter how poor they play. I think Burns should get the nod. But. Sexton will. If Ringrose is not ready, I would go Aki/ Farrell with Henshaw on the bench.

aloooof · 18-01-2021 10:07am

Must love hardship wrote: »

Personally after watching the last few England v ireland games I dont believe in all the hype about o'mahonys superior line-out prowess.. I think ruddock and leavy offer similar options in the line-out...

I really don't think this is true tbh. Take just the last game against Connacht, for example. 17:30 min, POM takes a slightly high throw that I don't think Ruddock or Leavy could take. Munster get the maul going well and 6 phases and 3 advantages later, Farrell goes over for a try.

There are legit reasons why you might not want POM in the team; I just don't think the lineout is one of them.

Jump_In_Jack · 18-01-2021 10:18am

aloooof wrote: »

I really don't think this is true tbh. Take just the last game against Connacht, for example. 17:30 min, POM takes a slightly high throw that I don't think Ruddock or Leavy could take. Munster get the maul going well and 6 phases and 3 advantages later, Farrell goes over for a try.

There are legit reasons why you might not want POM in the team; I just don't think the lineout is one of them.

Just from the amount of times that teammates on Ireland and Munster teams have commented about how good O'Mahony is in the lineout, the amount of detail he puts into his lineout prep, and his spring to get up quickly, it just can't be a coincidence, I haven't heard the same being said about any other player within either camp.

FWIW, O'Mahony since rugby restarted in October has been a revelation, his performances have been top of the backrows, and he looks to have packed on some weight as well as upped his aggression in contact, ruck clearouts, and is showing up on the wing frequently as a threat.

I have said over the years that he wasn't doing enough, but last few months I would have no hesitation starting him for Ireland.

Edit: I'd start O'Mahony at 7, and I would start Ruddock at 6 (impossible to ignore his form IMO), with either Doris or Stander at 8 with the other on the bench.
Coombes, Leavy, Conan, VdF, Connors, Paul Boyle, Jordi Murphy all could get called into the squad.

hahashake · 18-01-2021 10:41am

gally74 wrote: »

I wonder when Pat Lam will show up

Would he accept anything less than a head coaches gig? I suppose if the pay was right, but I can't see that happening at the moment.

Former Former Former · 18-01-2021 11:08am

gally74 wrote: »

I wonder when Pat Lam will show up

For the Ireland job??!

Never. They'd hire Eddie O'Sullivan before they'd hire Lam.

errlloyd · 18-01-2021 11:13am

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just from the amount of times that teammates on Ireland and Munster teams have commented about how good O'Mahony is in the lineout, the amount of detail he puts into his lineout prep, and his spring to get up quickly, it just can't be a coincidence, I haven't heard the same being said about any other player within either camp.

I agree he's the best backrower in the lineout by a mile.

But it is very important to always remember that those teammates are being asked to give a quote about a player - so they're picking what he's best at. Inferences can also be taken by what they don't say.

Buer · 18-01-2021 11:16am

Pat Lam would not work at test level. He has a very clear picture of how he wants a team to play and it takes a long time to bed in. For Connacht, it came good in his 3rd season. There were plenty of grumblings about him after his first season after Connacht actually went backwards.

Similarly, in Bristol he finished 9th in his first season and was still in the mix for relegation late enough in the season despite having huge resources at his disposal.

Long story short, Lam has proven he's a good coach and can turn teams around, producing results. But it takes a lot of time to do that and he won't be afforded that time or exposure to his squad for a national side.

Also, the IRFU will not hire from outside their existing structure. They haven't done so since Brian Ashton, I believe. Dan McFarland's contract ends around the same time as Andy Farrell's contract. There's a natural opportunity for a change there which would be far more likely.

The Inbetween is mine · 18-01-2021 11:17am

errlloyd wrote: »

I agree he's the best backrower in the lineout by a mile.

But it is very important to always remember that those teammates are being asked to give a quote about a player - so they're picking what he's best at. Inferences can also be taken by what they don't say.

Well if this isn't the biggest load of rubbish I've read today

Louis Friend · 18-01-2021 12:01pm

Squad development and planning for the next World Cup isn’t an ‘all or nothing’ exercise.

Andy Farrell’s job is to win Six Nations titles whilst developing the squad.

If this year’s championship comes down to that England game, get the best players on the pitch.

And if the younger outhalves are just not up to it and Sexton is still playing in 2023, play him at the World Cup.

If we have the talent, bring them on, but if we don’t, make do with what we have.

Harry Byrne does look like might have the X Factor. And then there’s Joey C obviously, fitness permitting.

But unfortunately, even if you combined Ross Byrne, Billy Burns, JJ Hanrahan, and Ian Madigan, you wouldn’t have an international class outhalf.

38 year old Jonathan Sexton would be streets ahead of them all.

Jump_In_Jack · 18-01-2021 12:31pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I agree he's the best backrower in the lineout by a mile.

But it is very important to always remember that those teammates are being asked to give a quote about a player - so they're picking what he's best at. Inferences can also be taken by what they don't say.

Sorry, I'm not talking about players being asked to give a quote about O'Mahony, I'm talking about when his name comes up without any prompting by the interviewer, from the various mentions he gets it's obvious to me that he has been the benchmark to which the others are comparing themselves in the lineout in recent years.

I would tend to agree that in past seasons he wasn't doing enough besides the lineout to be fully happy with him, but if he can do what he has been doing since October then he has to start IMO.

Jump_In_Jack · 18-01-2021 12:45pm

If I got to pick a 15 to start right now,

James Cronin, Herring, Porter,
Beirne, Dillane,
Ruddock, Doris, O'Mahony,
Blade, Burns,
Stockdale, Tom Daly, Henshaw, Earls,
Keenan.

Cronin offers more of a threat at the breakdown than Healy, Dillane is better than Ryan at the moment, Ruddock over Stander to reward his form, Blade to speed up the game, Burns to move on from Sexton, Tom Daly has been impressive and has a lot of skills to his game.

My guess what Andy Farrell will pick:
Healy, Herring, Porter,
Beirne, Ryan,
Stander, Doris, O'Mahony,
Murray, Sexton,
Earls, Aki, Henshaw, Keenan,
Stockdale.

theVersatile · 18-01-2021 1:17pm

Ruddock is in great form, but with 26 caps has only ever shown himself to be very average at international level. Do we want to give him another run at the age of 30 - when he hasn't the same money in the bank as say POM (as much as people hate that phrase, its true).

Lost Ormond · 18-01-2021 1:26pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

If I got to pick a 15 to start right now,

James Cronin, Herring, Porter,
Beirne, Dillane,
Ruddock, Doris, O'Mahony,
Blade, Burns,
Stockdale, Tom Daly, Henshaw, Earls,
Keenan.

Cronin offers more of a threat at the breakdown than Healy, Dillane is better than Ryan at the moment, Ruddock over Stander to reward his form, Blade to speed up the game, Burns to move on from Sexton, Tom Daly has been impressive and has a lot of skills to his game.

My guess what Andy Farrell will pick:
Healy, Herring, Porter,
Beirne, Ryan,
Stander, Doris, O'Mahony,
Murray, Sexton,
Earls, Aki, Henshaw, Keenan,
Stockdale.

I like Cronin and rate him highly but you dont pick props based on their breakdown threat.

phily2002 · 18-01-2021 2:37pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Ruddock is in great form, but with 26 caps has only ever shown himself to be very average at international level. Do we want to give him another run at the age of 30 - when he hasn't the same money in the bank as say POM (as much as people hate that phrase, its true).

When Ruddock got given a chance in the world cup he was man of the match, but Joe was never changing his team. He was exactly what we needed but got looked over again. Farrell then didn't pick him for the squad when most media was calling for him to be a starter, not sure what else he could do.
POM has money in the bank but this is the problem with Irish rugby. POM, Sexton, Murray and other high profile players can go years playing average to bad and always get another shot.
This is why we failed at the world cup. Picking on reputation and not form.

jm08 · 18-01-2021 2:51pm

Must love hardship wrote: »

Sorry i edited my previous post while you were posting..

Personally after watching the last few England v ireland games I dont believe in all the hype about o'mahonys superior line-out prowess.. I think ruddock and leavy offer similar options in the line-out and importantly more around the field. I'm not saying cut him loose entirely.. im just saying England has his and standers number...

They are only playing Wales( who in the last 12 months have only beaten Georgia & italy) its not like we are playing nz or south africa.

POM's prowess is as a defensive lineout operator. What needs to be improved is the lineout calling (which is fairly inexperienced at the moment and missing Devin Toner as a lineout option for secure ball). POC (and experience) will probably help towards fixing that, not throwing in some extra backrow forwards.

jm08 · 18-01-2021 2:55pm

phily2002 wrote: »

When Ruddock got given a chance in the world cup he was man of the match, but Joe was never changing his team. He was exactly what we needed but got looked over again. Farrell then didn't pick him for the squad when most media was calling for him to be a starter, not sure what else he could do.
POM has money in the bank but this is the problem with Irish rugby. POM, Sexton, Murray and other high profile players can go years playing average to bad and always get another shot.
This is why we failed at the world cup. Picking on reputation and not form.

Ruddock won man of the match against Russia. How has he done when playing against Saracens or England?

aloooof · 18-01-2021 3:02pm

phily2002 wrote: »

When Ruddock got given a chance in the world cup he was man of the match, but Joe was never changing his team. He was exactly what we needed but got looked over again. Farrell then didn't pick him for the squad when most media was calling for him to be a starter, not sure what else he could do.
POM has money in the bank but this is the problem with Irish rugby. POM, Sexton, Murray and other high profile players can go years playing average to bad and always get another shot.
This is why we failed at the world cup. Picking on reputation and not form.

To be fair to Farrell, he gave 11 players their debut last year. He also gave a number of players who had a single-digit number of caps a start.

It'd be unfair to criticise Farrell for not giving guys a chance just cos he didn't pick Ruddock. (Not saying you are saying this, btw, just making the larger point).

phily2002 · 18-01-2021 3:04pm

jm08 wrote: »

Ruddock won man of the match against Russia. How has he done when playing against Saracens or England?

Yep man of the match against Russia and played better than POM on the other flank, so who gets the nod in the big match? Reputation...

He plays at a consistently high level. How has Stander, POM and VDF done against Saracens or England? Answer they get outmuscled every time... Maybe trying Ruddock might not be such a bad move...

aloooof · 18-01-2021 3:16pm

phily2002 wrote: »

Yep man of the match against Russia and played better than POM on the other flank, so who gets the nod in the big match? Reputation...

POM was our best player against NZ tho. It was a pretty low bar that day, but he was probably the only player who came out with any credit.

phily2002 wrote: »

He plays at a consistently high level. How has Stander, POM and VDF done against Saracens or England? Answer they get outmuscled every time... Maybe trying Ruddock might not be such a bad move...

It's more about combinations, imo. Having both POM and VdF doesn't seem to work. However, POM now seems like a live option for the 7 jersey, which changes things a bit.

At the moment, I think if Ruddock was to be selected, it'd be more likely ahead of Stander at 6, with Doris at 8.

Personally think I'd go 6. Stander 7. POM, 8. Doris.

phily2002 · 18-01-2021 3:19pm

aloooof wrote: »

To be fair to Farrell, he gave 11 players their debut last year. He also gave a number of players who had a single-digit number of caps a start.

It'd be unfair to criticise Farrell for not giving guys a chance just cos he didn't pick Ruddock. (Not saying you are saying this, btw, just making the larger point).

Yeah in fairness Farrell has given guys a chance but still picks the old familiars no matter what.
Time will tell how good Farrell is but I think he's out of his depth. He's trying to play a style of rugby he's never coached or played before and hasn't brought in anyone to his team that has either.

phily2002 · 18-01-2021 3:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

POM was our best player against NZ tho. It was a pretty low bar that day, but he was probably the only player who came out with any credit.

It's more about combinations, imo. Having both POM and VdF doesn't seem to work. However, POM now seems like a live option for the 7 jersey, which changes things a bit.

At the moment, I think if Ruddock was to be selected, it'd be more likely ahead of Stander at 6, with Doris at 8.

Personally think I'd go 6. Stander 7. POM, 8. Doris.

NZ match was a result of picking on reputation and not form, don't think we would have won anyway but mightn't have been such a hammering. POM was average but that sums up how bad most players were.
Yeah agree Ruddock would more likely take Standers position, Stander is great where he wins collisions but against the likes of England he fails to do this.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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