Where do we go from here?

Cass · 17-01-2021 3:38pm #1

First off, and i must stress, this is NOT a political thread nor debate. The Off Topic thread is the place for that.

This is an opinion and suggestion thread.

With the seemingly never-ending and increased "attacks" on all shooting sports, not just here at home, but globally are we on the loosing end of a very long battle or is there hope for the sport?

Between gun bans, mag bans, social media bans on free speech of hunting, the lead ban, and of course public opinion is the sport looking at a slow death of a thousand cuts?

If so what can we do to try stop it and even turn it around.

If not then what can be done to increase the population of the shooting community and finally shed ourselves of the "secrecy" our sport is sometimes forced to implement.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 3:49pm

What can you do in fairness. As i have said before, like the eu lead ban, these things have already been decided by the time we hear of them, you can object all you want to, but its a done deal.

Same when shortarse banned the pistols, all we could do was run around like headless chickens and appeal to him to let us keep our .22's. He didn't have to listen to us, no lost votes to him if he did ban the lot.

Now its this green/leftie thing that "All guns are bad M'KAY", which is not just here but world wide. Wait til Biden starts banning and our lot of twits want to kiss his boots and copy him. :rolleyes:

Cass · 17-01-2021 4:26pm

Ah, come on man (see what i did there

). First post and already biden creeps in. This is not a political thread and while there is an element of politics that must accompany this debate its not meant as a moaning thread for the current political climate.

For example.

Gun clubs. There has and is a limit of the number of members. I know this is due to factors such as surrounding clubs, area of lands, game availability, etc. but how many times do we get lads asking how to join because a club won't take on new members? Is there someway to increase club members without sacrificing the quality of shooting or perhaps a "reserve" of members that have limited shooting at a reduced fee and are first to be called up when a spot becomes available? How can expect to bring the next generation in when so much is against them. We all started somewhere and some of us had to work for years to get started, but that is not a rite of passage and we can make it easier for the next generation by cutting out the wait times, and hoops that need jumping through. Doesn't have to be a cakewalk, just a little easier for them.

Ranges have no limits other than capacity. The Midlands for example can accommodate hundreds of shooters all at once, but its the capacity of the roads, parking and the ranges that limit their ability to hundreds of members instead of thousands. Smaller ranges would be even more susceptible to this with physically smaller ranges and smaller lands to shoot on.

In terms of public opinion how about things like public days. Specifically for people that have never shot. If it gets new members then brilliant but the purpose could be to introduce people to the sport of shooting in a controlled environment and alleviate their fears and misconceptions surrounding firearms. This can happen on ranges and with club (gun club) days too.

Still on the public opinion aspect what about social media. Its a useful tool but we're too secretive, and with good reason, about our sport. We're legal in what we do but we can do more. Stop posting pictures of overly "gruesome" shots. I hunt and some of the pictures i see make me wonder why anyone would post such a thing. This imagery will never be able to be explained to those not used to hunting and visuals will be remembered quicker than a good speech.

With regards to the political aspect the infighting within our own groups makes co-operation harder but these groups have no power unless we give it to them and unlike political parties we have direct access to them. If the "head table" don't do what the majority want or act outside the remit of the sport/group they're in then remove them and start again.

This has to lead to better co-operation and when/where necessary unity to combat collective issues that will affect all disciplines regardless of whether or not the majority pursue it. IOW Gallery should be supported by F-Class, Sporting rifle, clay guys, and pistol shooters and any combination of that you can think off. IOW an attack on any aspect of the sport is an attack on the whole community. If we speak with a unified voice, however fanciful that may sound, we stand a better chance.

We also need to include more "outside" groups. IFA has a hit and miss history and have gone their own way form time to time but we as a community outnumber them by over 2 to 1 so imagine the power we have if we work together. Not just one particular groups but others too. Fishing is considered as much a "bloodsport" as any and they suffer the same crap we do. Surely we can support them and them us?

So what suggestions have people or is this all too much pie in the sky stuff? Should we sit back, continue to bemoan all the restrictions, changes and attacks on our sport, but ultimately accept them through indifference/apathy? If so then i'd suggest selling what you have now and beating the "rush".

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 5:05pm

Was writing this while Cass has replied to some of my points already. The joys of multi finger typing eh Cass?

We can do PLENTY!
Make a new years resolution[Covid permitting] to try and get ONE other person to try shooting this year.Don't have to get them signed up with a license,but get them out to at least try it. Double points if you can get the untapped market here namely WOMEN out shooting.
Gangster rep if you get one of them out signed up and hunting as well.
The more people we recruit to the sport the better.
It becomes a cascading effect, if you have one person who likes it, they will recruit another, who recruits another and so on. Strangely, this is working in the UK, where there has been despite the Govt's efforts, an increase in license holders to own firearms, due to this tactic.

Stop supporting the Fudds in our organisations and those that continuously undermine us on our side. We have seen this enough times in Ireland with groups like SCOVI, the deer organisation that has been mission creeping for the last decade doing us damage. Take your money and membership and walk away from toxic groups, clubs and individuals. The time for infighting and saying another man's sport is your poison is now over.
We are GUNOWNERS first and are seen as that by antis and Govt. They giveth not a F^^K what you use the gun for in what discipline. ALL GUNS MUST BE BANNED! is their logic and mantra and plan. Ditto the govts of the West it seems.
Bur Grizzly" you say.."A lot of these groups are run by volunteers who give up their time and do this for no reward. Who will run them then?" Indeed they do and those that do so without an agenda are exemplary...However, there are those who think their positions as volunteers gives them autocratic powers and a seat for life on some committees and boards etc. I'm looking particularly at places where lots make their first contacts with the sport on a parish level. Some "good ol boys pheasant and pub club" that won't take on anyone unless they are from the parish for 4 generations is utterly detrimental and killing new members.

We need to up our game, trim off a lot of deadwood, dross and fat in our organisations and get fighting fit and literally do away with this "Ah sure nuthin we can do "attitude. This goes too for our national prgs, they need to up their games a lot. IE the mag ban 2019. This was NRPAI's job...Still awaiting a statement from them on this occurrence for an example.:rolleyes: Yet I as a single individual was telling all of you that this mag and rifle ban was coming here on Boards...Do people that we pay money thru our club memberships that support these over groups not take this stuff on board?

We saw this same thing happen in 2006. There were warning blips on the radar that no one took seriously here, and we suffered the equivalency of Pearl harbour because of it! It has never been answered as to wHY these warnings were not taken seriously?

QUIT talking to the media!
We have had two hatchet jobs done to us by RTE and made a complete shambles of the last with the pheasant shooting in COVID lockdown.Could we play to the stereotype any better for them in that interview?

We need to start taking the role of media PR man /woman[prefably] these days] a lot more seriously than to be thinking it is a place for someone to be on the committee. It is now a role that needs to be handled by someone who is media savvy and trained as to how the media works, and does not see itas some free advertising for their organisation or gun store either on TV.
We need to play the media at their own game, that's why having a woman or ethnically diverse/trans/disabled person as a PR official is a gold.It plays against the stereotype of a bit of gammon in a quilted vest and peaked cap harrumphing on about "Muh shooting sports"

Dismiss the "look at America!" argument at every turn.It's a fallacious bit of whataboutery that goes nowhere.
Just point out it is a ridiculous argument to compare a country with a constitutional right and 300 million with now well North of 46% of the worlds REGISTERED firearms in private ownership, and where a country gunshop might have a bigger stock of Irelands entire privately owned handguns and "assault rifles".To a country of 4 million +/- with no constitutional right to own arms.Is like comparing a dormouse to a blue whale. And if they want to try comparing like and like.
Our own Republic Vs the North is a more rational example of failed gun laws vs by EU standards pretty liberal gun laws.
In fact as a gun owner and shooter of whatever. Can you rattle off 10 defensive arguments to justify your ownership and sport in a conversation?

Bone up on the firearms law!
Yes, you have a duty to yourself and others to know the law as much as possible on firearms in Ireland. Why? So you won't be steamrollered by those in authority that don't know it and are going and try to use the weight of their badge and authority to push you down. Not to mind to know what your "rights" are in these circumstances. Still amazing how many people still accept this "application was lost" excuse accept and say nothing about it. Sounding educated on a topic and authoratative can also count alot in situations like these.

As Jordan Peterson said "We need to go tidy our own rooms first. Then we can start sorting out the Worlds problems"

To conclude...
Picture this like an ant carrying a grain of sand ...One ant carrying a grain of sand doesn't achieve much, but when half a million of his pals are doing the same thing in the same direction. They can build colossal works of nature both above and below ground! Be a shooting ant!:)

tudderone · 17-01-2021 5:06pm

Yes i found it difficult to get into a game club, i gave up in fact. I have seen people bringing young people to ranges and gun clubs. The kids were expecting something like practical shooting, and were disappointed to be shooting paper targets at 25m with a .22 or air rifle. Most were simply bored stiff and you never see them again.

Peppa Cig · 17-01-2021 5:43pm

You cannot defeat the rate of growth of the leftie, snowflake, tinted glasses masses.

It is a contagious norm. Much more contagious than e.g. CV19.

Those in power will appeal to the masses to remain in power.

We are on borrowed time.

I sound like an old grump but I’m not. I just have an opinion of what’s coming fast down the tracks. I don’t like what I’m seeing and hearing.

Enjoy it while you can.

Cass · 17-01-2021 6:11pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The joys of multi finger typing eh Cass?

You:

Me :

tudderone · 17-01-2021 6:13pm

Kermit on the speed again.......................

Peppa Cig · 17-01-2021 6:15pm

tudderone wrote: »

Kermit on the speed again.......................

Kermit must be on something looking at all the threads he has just started/replied to - ha

tudderone · 17-01-2021 6:16pm

Peppa Cig wrote: »

You cannot defeat the rate of growth of the leftie, snowflake, tinted glasses masses.

It is a contagious norm. Much more contagious than e.g. CV19.

Those in power will appeal to the masses to remain in power.

We are on borrowed time.

I sound like an old grump but I’m not. I just have an opinion of what’s coming fast down the tracks. I don’t like what I’m seeing and hearing.

Enjoy it while you can.

You cannot defeat the rate of growth of the leftie, snowflake, tinted glasses masses, who hold strong opinions on topics they don't know the first thing about. They hold opinions they are told to hold.

Peppa Cig · 17-01-2021 6:26pm

tudderone wrote: »

You cannot defeat the rate of growth of the leftie, snowflake, tinted glasses masses, who hold strong opinions on topics they don't know the first thing about. They hold opinions they are told to hold.

The worrying thing is it is becoming inter-generational for those with access to the defacto influence of social media.

Lads that were once sound are slowly becoming “victims”.

#lemmings #sheep (*note the social media influence).

tudderone · 17-01-2021 6:41pm

Yup, facts are not as important as being morally right :rolleyes:

Cass · 17-01-2021 7:30pm

Peppa Cig wrote: »

Kermit must be on something looking at all the threads he has just started/replied to - ha

There is too much posting in the off topic thread and we're getting away from the reason for the forum, or should i say we've being slowly drifting that way for some time and i want to get back to things that matter and that is why i've bumped some threads and started another.

Its the same thing in this thread. Within a post, and now once again with the last few, we're going into the left is bad m'kay. I don't want to hear anymore of that noise, i really cannot take it. Its why i ask once again that we don't turn this into a "left v right" thread.

Peppa Cig wrote: »

We are on borrowed time.

I sound like an old grump but I’m not. I just have an opinion of what’s coming fast down the tracks. I don’t like what I’m seeing and hearing.

Enjoy it while you can.

I am off the same opinion, to a degree.

I cannot see how we're going to turn this around without first changing ourselves. By that i mean the groups that claim to represent us, but more importantly the apathy i see everyday within the shooting community.

Ignoring those that destroy our sport while claiming to represent it, the PTB taking full advantage of that disharmony and the general apathy and moaning from the other 98%.

We need ideas, practices and general information on an actual plan and not more bitching.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 7:36pm

tudderone wrote: »

Yes i found it difficult to get into a game club, i gave up in fact. I have seen people bringing young people to ranges and gun clubs. The kids were expecting something like practical shooting, and were disappointed to be shooting paper targets at 25m with a .22 or air rifle. Most were simply bored stiff and you never see them again.

Whose fault is that really? Of course, if you have been brought up on Medal of Honour and Vice city, that will be crap! So it will behove us to make it interesting for them, within all that we can do legally. Seen it happen in Dojos and martial arts too.Go too heavy on the formal and you'll bore the brjaysus out of any newbie.
The local clubs. my idea would simply be, go find your own land to shoot on in the areas and start another club in the same parish. It will cause conflict, but then again, you are probably not the only one in the neighbourhood that has been refused or ignored. It might even stir the Gammons to start doing things if the membership is leaving for you...
It is now at the point that everyone has to realise when you say "Somebody should do something about that!" Realise you are Somebody!!:pac:

I will also lay this problem partly at the NARGCs door too. They sign up these organisations but do FAICS nothing to "quality control" the standard of the club...or whatever on a local level. Poor customer service is damaging to your name brand.
Not a NARGC bash here these points... Just pointing out what needed some improvement.

Nor are they that quick to respond to queries on setting up a club from my personal experience. Still waiting since Sept for them to respond to a query as to who their local club rep is in my area.

A small thing in the big scheme of things, but it can show up an organisation as being sloppy on small things,what re they like with bigger things? Understandable,if the NARGC was on my level of a lad doing everything behind his laptop.but not if it is an est organisation with paid staff.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 7:54pm

Cass wrote: »

T
I cannot see how we're going to turn this around without first changing ourselves. By that i mean the groups that claim to represent us, but more importantly the apathy i see everyday within the shooting community.

Ignoring those that destroy our sport while claiming to represent it, the PTB taking full advantage of that disharmony and the general apathy and moaning from the other 98%.

We need ideas, practices and general information on an actual plan and not more bitching.

Need to start with ourselves as well. We need to start "coming out of the closet" and point out this is a lifestyle choice and not a "hobby" and we have nothing to be ashamed of or owe anyone an explanation as to why we are this way, and We'd appreciate some "Tolerance and respect "as we are demanded to show others of alt lifestyles and multi genders.
Start learning from our enemies tactics as well to fight them with their own weapons too.

civdef · 17-01-2021 8:18pm

Within a post, and now once again with the last few, we're going into the left is bad m'kay.

This +100. It's become very tiresome to read more & more stuff on many threads lately which feels like it's come off some American conservative forum.

We're in a much different political climate here thank goodness - trying to use the same tactics as the US "gun community" is a recipe for disaster here. (It's a recipe for disaster for them too I reckon, but that's another debate).

Shooters here need to concentrate on one thing above all. Don't be a dick. We should be trying to give a positive impression to outsiders where ever possible. That still isn't always the case.

We'll never get most people interested in shooting or event to care much about it. What we don't want is the idea that shooters = dangerous or arseholes.

Grolschevik · 17-01-2021 8:20pm

I don't shoot, but I'd like to.
Not owning property to bolt a safe to is my main issue. Renter.
I'm a long-time lurker here, and I've learned a lot.
I'm fully supportive of you guys and I'm far, far more left than the European average.
Just thought I'd mention it.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 8:29pm

Cass wrote: »

First off, and i must stress, this is NOT a political thread nor debate. The Off Topic thread is the place for that.

This is an opinion and suggestion thread.

With the seemingly never-ending and increased "attacks" on all shooting sports, not just here at home, but globally are we on the loosing end of a very long battle or is there hope for the sport?

Between gun bans, mag bans, social media bans on free speech of hunting, the lead ban, and of course public opinion is the sport looking at a slow death of a thousand cuts?

If so what can we do to try stop it and even turn it around.

If not then what can be done to increase the population of the shooting community and finally shed ourselves of the "secrecy" our sport is sometimes forced to implement.

I think the best approach to this would be to essentially "mobilize" the shooting community and send waves of letters. The recent RTÉ ad where God was arrested (being a Waterford native I know the man playing God and where the video was filmed, down the road from my secondary school:D) and apparently there was public backlash from it. We should really take a leaf out of this book and use similar tactics. Actually getting the public to hear our message is essential so we should reach out to any newspaper or radio and talk to them about it. People generally like to hold on to simple messages so hammering home the practically non existent amount of legally held firearms being used in crimes, and how in the case the got handguns more or less banned, in a case of mistaken identity a young man lost his life then the government mistakenly blamed the shooting community. The irony of that situation should be driven home. Perhaps a point could be made that we're being scapegoated for the Gardaí's inability to control the flow of illegal guns into the country. A point should definitely be made on how difficult it is to actually get a firearm in Ireland, I know my local MEP Grace O'Sullivan wrote a hit piece on 14 year olds being able to get guns and using that as a Trojan horse to ban firearms, generally misrepresenting the actual situation. Ultimately it's a game of optics, we need to be seen to be sensible and honest when dealing with politicians and the public who know little about our firearm laws. Those are my thoughts anyway, feel free to critique them if you want.

kunekunesika · 17-01-2021 8:30pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

I don't shoot, but I'd like to.
Not owning property to bolt a safe to is my main issue. Renter.
I'm a long-time lurker here, and I've learned a lot.
I'm fully supportive of you guys and I'm far, far more left than the European average.
Just thought I'd mention it.

I lived in rental for many years, never was a problem. I can imagine rental agreements are stricter now, but wasn't an issue with officialdom. Always filled the holes in the wall and gave the room a bit of paint when finished up.
Thanks for the support,
You don't need permission from your landlord to keep a firearm, but it might go a bit smoother if you paint the safe in a nice magnolia.
Good luck

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 8:33pm

Welcome!
Your politics are of little interest to us here friend. You are a gun owner or want to be one, that's all that matters to us.:)

Cass · 17-01-2021 8:34pm

civdef wrote: »

This +100. It's become very tiresome to read more & more stuff on many threads lately which feels like it's come off some American conservative forum.

It has and still is, and i'm as much to blame for that as anyone. I'm fascinated by politics in some countries and let my enthusiasm run riot in the Off Topic thread.

It's only recently, while trying to search for an old post, i realised how much crap i was posting that had nothing to do with anything in my life (i even said so in the posts, but failed to heed my own warning).

As you said every thread turned into another discussion on Trump, biden, left, right and within a very short few posts it became a sub thread of the off topic one.

Like you i'm tired of it and as i said in one of the posts now its all over there is no reason to continue to discuss the circus and we can get back to the business of Irish shooting sports.

Shooters here need to concentrate on one thing above all. Don't be a dick. We should be trying to give a positive impression to outsiders where ever possible. That still isn't always the case.

We're a clanish bunch no doubt and don't accept criticism easily if at all. Any comment, usually negative, is immediately met with cynicism and agression. Sometimes its warranted but not always and the beenfit of the doubt should be given to those wondering if they should post and that is where my concern stems from.

Frankly i'll not loose sleep over anyone that is completely anti shooting not posting or not posting often but that clique attitude can put off new lads (and lassies) from posting here and i've been met with the same attitude on other forums (mostly car ones) even though i'm well seasoned i'm made feel like I am newbie and a hassle for posting.

Time to change that because it wasn't always the case here and while arguments happen the forum was a much more open and inviting place. Back to basic methinks.

We'll never get most people interested in shooting or event to care much about it. What we don't want is the idea that shooters = dangerous or arseholes.

That was my thinking on the open/public days. Its not about membership or increasing our number, but to show the public we're ordinary people that use "unusual" tools for our sport. The best bit of shooting for me is the sh*te talk and craic at the days out or range days. There is a good enough community and a great social aspect which most people wouldn't associate to the sport so we can educate and show them.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 8:35pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

I don't shoot, but I'd like to.
Not owning property to bolt a safe to is my main issue. Renter.
I'm a long-time lurker here, and I've learned a lot.
I'm fully supportive of you guys and I'm far, far more left than the European average.
Just thought I'd mention it.

You don't need a safe for a single non restricted shotgun but I'm not 100% sure about ammunition storage requirements so you might be stuck there. Some ranges provide storage facilities. I'd recommend going to your local range when Covid 19 restrictions are lifted.

Far more left? Like communist or greens or social democrats, or in other words the people trying to ban firearms? I don't mean to be a dick, just asking, I mean Marx was pro gun.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 8:42pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

I don't shoot, but I'd like to.
Not owning property to bolt a safe to is my main issue. Renter.
I'm a long-time lurker here, and I've learned a lot.
I'm fully supportive of you guys and I'm far, far more left than the European average.
Just thought I'd mention it.

If you want to get a shotgun or .22 rifle, then see what the local super wants in way of security. If its only a safe then your landlord might be ok with that. If you want to get involved, then go for it.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 8:48pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I think the best approach to this would be to essentially "mobilize" the shooting community and send waves of letters. The recent RTÉ ad where God was arrested (being a Waterford native I know the man playing God and where the video was filmed, down the road from my secondary school:D) and apparently there was public backlash from it. We should really take a leaf out of this book and use similar tactics. Actually getting the public to hear our message is essential so we should reach out to any newspaper or radio and talk to them about it. People generally like to hold on to simple messages so hammering home the practically non existent amount of legally held firearms being used in crimes, and how in the case the got handguns more or less banned, in a case of mistaken identity a young man lost his life then the government mistakenly blamed the shooting community. The irony of that situation should be driven home. Perhaps a point could be made that we're being scapegoated for the Gardaí's inability to control the flow of illegal guns into the country. A point should definitely be made on how difficult it is to actually get a firearm in Ireland, I know my local MEP Grace O'Sullivan wrote a hit piece on 14 year olds being able to get guns and using that as a Trojan horse to ban firearms, generally misrepresenting the actual situation. Ultimately it's a game of optics, we need to be seen to be sensible and honest when dealing with politicians and the public who know little about our firearm laws. Those are my thoughts anyway, feel free to critique them if you want.

You need to that sparingly and when it's relevant or a critical matter. Otherwise, you just end up looking like that fellah down in Callan who buys ink by the tanker load and is scribbling non-stop to the papers on nowadays any and all topics. Yeah,we have done this before and it worked when the liscense fee was going to be increased.We blizzaderd with emails the TDs and ol Fatty Harney was "alarmed" at the amount she recived against this increase.

Then "I'll smoke where I want to! It's my right!".Deasey ran bawling to the press about how he was being "targeted by hate mail" from those nasty gun owners when he was egging on that nasty crippled insect from Louth, Ahern, about banning handguns in the Dail.:mad: So it has to be done right too.

As to what an ex-surfer chick who thinks she is a hot Sht on all things NZ, as she was on a boat that had it's hull blown out 30 years ago in the harbour by idiot French intelligence operatives, isn't really the hill to die on.Same as that FF jackass who was braying on about banning the few semi-autos and handguns we have here in the Dail. Cass was right on that. Don't give these people oxygen in their outpourings or allow them to create a "Streisand effect".
Plus these days E petitions is great for dumping an issue on someones door too.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 8:49pm

civdef wrote: »

This +100. It's become very tiresome to read more & more stuff on many threads lately which feels like it's come off some American conservative forum.

We're in a much different political climate here thank goodness - trying to use the same tactics as the US "gun community" is a recipe for disaster here. (It's a recipe for disaster for them too I reckon, but that's another debate).

Shooters here need to concentrate on one thing above all. Don't be a dick. We should be trying to give a positive impression to outsiders where ever possible. That still isn't always the case.

We'll never get most people interested in shooting or event to care much about it. What we don't want is the idea that shooters = dangerous or arseholes.

The thing is we live in a globalised world, what happens in the USA or EU impacts us directly, If there is a mass shooting in America, we get the usual suspects here demanding things, Someone mentioned Grace O'Malley.

As for being portrayed as dangerous or arseholes, we already are and were. Remember the RTE hatchet job on us ? Or any coverage of shooting sports in the papers, ever listen to the liveline moan-in show when they talk about us ?Its always negative and probably always will be.

Cass · 17-01-2021 8:50pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I think the best approach to this would be to essentially "mobilize" the shooting community and send waves of letters.

That is the goal and this thread is not so much about ideas on how to do it, but how to get people mobilized.

Anyone you speak to that has been involved in the "admin" side of a group, range, association, etc. will tell you the same thing. The 2% rule. 2% do the doing and the other 98% don't now or care. We need people, especially our own, to be more engaged if for no other reason than it'll stop nasty surprised when they wake up to find their firearm is now banned.

Actually getting the public to hear our message is essential so we should reach out to any newspaper or radio and talk to them about it.

Agreed and each association or group can advertise their own corner, but need to keep in mind the larger picture so would need to be literate and have a basic knowledge of all thing shooting. As was aid above we've been the "victims" of some seriously bad hatchet jobs in the past and that is not the fault of those involved but rather the bias they were met with which translated to carefully edited and aired programming.

People generally like to hold on to simple messages so hammering home the practically non existent amount of legally held firearms being used in crimes, and how in the case the got handguns more or less banned, in a case of mistaken identity a young man lost his life then the government mistakenly blamed the shooting community.

Keep the message simple, absolutely, but i'd steer clear of linking us to any criminal activity discussion, even if its in defense of our sport, as people's attention spans are short and you don't want the "juice" to be at the end of a segment when people have tuned out and all they heard was "Legal gun owner defends guns used in killing".

We are not associated to that criminality so if asked, and its happened once or twice to me, i simply state something along the lines of "nothing to do with my sport, thats criminals being criminals but come over to the range some time and i'll show you what the sort is all about" (that is heavily shortened fro time saving in this reply). Essentially i'm rejecting the premise of their question without dismissing them and trying to open them up to the sport with a friendly invitation.

Perhaps a point could be made that we're being scapegoated for the Gardaí's inability to control the flow of illegal guns into the country.

I understand where you're coming from and frankly i might be inclined to agree with you, but not bout An Gardaí but about the Minsters responsible. Gardaí only enforce the law they don't write it. However the blame game has not worked for us so i think it's time to explore new avenues.

A point should definitely be made on how difficult it is to actually get a firearm in Ireland,

Absolutely.

I know my local MEP Grace O'Sullivan wrote a hit piece on 14 year olds being able to get guns and using that as a Trojan horse to ban firearms, generally misrepresenting the actual situation. Ultimately it's a game of optics, we need to be seen to be sensible and honest when dealing with politicians and the public who know little about our firearm laws.

I think i remember that piece. From a couple of years back and after the New Zealand shooting.

There is two things i've learned about politicians over the years. They'll never miss an opportunity to headline the headlines (otherwise known as jumping on the bandwagon, especially in an election year) and they know feck all about firearms. Even looking back at the Oireachtas review committee, the level of, and i can only use this word, ignorance shown by those that were going to recommend and probably write future laws on firearms was to me shocking.

We need to change that too.

Those are my thoughts anyway, feel free to critique them if you want.

Its not criticizing them but debating, discussing and getting them out there. you made some good points and are thinking of ways to work this which is all i really want to see out of this thread so keep the ideas coming.

Cass · 17-01-2021 8:54pm

tudderone wrote: »

The thing is we live in a globalised world, what happens in the USA or EU impacts us directly, If there is a mass shooting in America, we get the usual suspects here demanding things, Someone mentioned Grace O'Malley.

As for being portrayed as dangerous or arseholes, we already are and were. Remember the RTE hatchet job on us ? Or any coverage of shooting sports in the papers, ever listen to the liveline moan-in show when they talk about us ?Its always negative and probably always will be.

So what do we do?

No point in re-hasing the same old points of what has happened, its what we do now that matters.

12gauge dave · 17-01-2021 8:57pm

With no shooting or practice ranges around there is nowhere for us gun owners without land to shoot on.

You try a bit of lamping and your public enemy number one in the village farmers spreading rumours and being accused of all sorts and guards ringing you the next day.

I haven't shot the gun in years and Id have no problem handing back in at this stage.

Safe places to shoot where owners can hop in the car and go let some lead off for half an hour is what is needed. Classes for youngsters could be given then and it would grow.

Thats my 2 cents as a young gun owner for the last 9 years.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 9:01pm

Cass wrote: »

So what do we do?

No point in re-hasing the same old points of what has happened, its what we do now that matters.

I really don't know. Get politicians involved ? I remember Biffo getting his photo taken at the Midlands club when they extended their range, a short while later he chucked the pistol shooters under the bus.

Invite journalists to ranges ? Thats been tried before and They turned on us and bit us on the arse.

Get colleges involved ? That might be an idea, i know some already have their own rifle clubs.

No point trying to encourage people into game shooting, if they attempt to get into a club and its like trying to get into the masons.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:02pm

kunekunesika wrote: »

You don't need permission from your landlord to keep a firearm, but it might go a bit smoother if you paint the safe in a nice magnolia.
Good luck

As a landlord and someone who has been in this biz for 40 plus years now, it has never been a problem for us to rent to gun owners Been asked once by AGS was it ok.

So long as you pay your rent on time, invited us to the parties, and kept the BDSM activities to a discreet and quiet level after midnite...That was good enough by me.:D:D

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:15pm

tudderone wrote: »

I really don't know. Get politicians involved? I remember Biffo getting his photo taken at the Midlands club when they extended their range, a short while later he chucked the pistol shooters under the bus.

How about getting political ourselves?... To be developed.

Invite journalists to ranges? That's been tried before and They turned on us and bit us on the arse.

NEver a good idea, unless you are a well skilled professional PR person.Seen how that backfired even in the UK with the hit piece done by the Times reporter on the practical shotgun.

Get colleges involved ? That might be an idea, i know some already have their own rifle clubs.

Much earlier, need that around the secondary school to start recruiting talent,and I'd aim it at the kids who aren't all that enthused by playing with balls. It's how the East blockers got their fantastic Olympic shooters in the Soviet era. My friends and classmates were fascinated that way back when that at 16 I was shooting and I took a bunch of them out as well to try.A couple of them kept it up and became pretty good clay shots.

Cass · 17-01-2021 9:18pm

12gauge dave wrote: »

With no shooting or practice ranges around there is nowhere for us gun owners without land to shoot on.

You try a bit of lamping and your public enemy number one in the village farmers spreading rumours and being accused of all sorts and guards ringing you the next day.

This is the very thing i'm referring to. Sounds fairly sh*tty, so sorry for your troubles, but this is what we need. I know a couple of young lads in the same position as yourself. No one in their family shoots, nor friends, so they had a harder time starting out as they were on their own from the start. WE, established shooters, can change this for younger lads by inviting them in and helping out whenever and wherever we can.

A few suggestions/questions that may be of no help but all i can think of for the moment.

Have you tried the local gun club, range, even local lads already shooting? Perhaps even go along a few times without your gun and show you're interested in all aspects and not just the shooting.

I haven't shot the gun in years and Id have no problem handing back in at this stage.

I hope you stick it out. I was in your shoes about a year back and got the same advice by other shooters. Didn't want to hear it, but i stuck it out, albeit without shooting due to covid, but looking back i'm glad i did.

If you're still undecided its easier to have the gun than to surrender it, change your mind and try start again.

Safe places to shoot where owners can hop in the car and go let some lead off for half an hour is what is needed. Classes for youngsters could be given then and it would grow.

Now you're touching on something i've been thinking about for a while.

A range in each county or a couple. I know it sounds mad, expensive, etc. but it doesn't have to be.

The Midlands range started as a simple clay range over 25 years ago and look at it now. My point is you don't need 1,200 yard range in each county just a simple 50 mtr, 4 to 6 lane range. It requires the same level of licensing, but the set-up, maintenance and running costs will be significantly lower and would provide the very thing you are seeking.

My home county has no range so even when we come out of level 5 i cannot travel to the range so i would benefit too. So its not just for younger shooters.

Great idea, keep them coming.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 9:26pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You need to that sparingly and when it's relevant or a critical matter. Otherwise, you just end up looking like that fellah down in Callan who buys ink by the tanker load and is scribbling non-stop to the papers on nowadays any and all topics. Yeah,we have done this before and it worked when the liscense fee was going to be increased.We blizzaderd with emails the TDs and ol Fatty Harney was "alarmed" at the amount she recived against this increase.

Then "I'll smoke where I want to! It's my right!".Deasey ran bawling to the press about how he was being "targeted by hate mail" from those nasty gun owners when he was egging on that nasty crippled insect from Louth, Ahern, about banning handguns in the Dail.:mad: So it has to be done right too.

As to what an ex-surfer chick who thinks she is a hot Sht on all things NZ, as she was on a boat that had it's hull blown out 30 years ago in the harbour by idiot French intelligence operatives, isn't really the hill to die on.Same as that FF jackass who was braying on about banning the few semi-autos and handguns we have here in the Dail. Cass was right on that. Don't give these people oxygen in their outpourings or allow them to create a "Streisand effect".
Plus these days E petitions is great for dumping an issue on someones door too.

Exactly, with a lot of things, less is more and sending letters in every week is going to be pointless. However if the government tries to implement any bans or announces them, then we should send in letters by the truck load. Genuine letters not letters from William X, Will X, Bill X, Billy X etc etc. I think this approach is a must because then the government knows that people oppose bans and restrictions.

Is that John Deasy, the FG TD from Waterford? I remember he tried to sue a newspaper for defamation or something and lost.

I heard about the Rainbow Warrior incident a good while ago, my mother told me that it was in Russia and she had to swim to shore, when in reality they were in port and just had to step off the boat.

I think the best approach is to pretend that we don't exist and let the public thing that "only farmers can have guns". Only speak unless spoken to, sort of approach:D

Cass · 17-01-2021 9:28pm

tudderone wrote: »

I really don't know. Get politicians involved ? I remember Biffo getting his photo taken at the Midlands club when they extended their range, a short while later he chucked the pistol shooters under the bus.

We cannot rely on, which is different to trusting, any current politician. They got where they are by going with the current trends and have bigger concerns than a shooting community without any sort of lobby group or unity.

My thinking, albeit far fetched and the long game, is making politicians. Start working towards getting people we can rely on into office. Upset the norm and start to shift out the "old guard". May not do much in the short term but long term, who knows.

Invite journalists to ranges ? Thats been tried before and They turned on us and bit us on the arse.

Nope. no relying on third parties. Direct advertisement even if it means leaflets in letterboxes, phone calls, or e-mails.

Get colleges involved ? That might be an idea, i know some already have their own rifle clubs.

Absolutely. Doesn't have to be rimfire or centrefire, air rifle ranges (while legally the same) can be setup and ran much easier and cheaper than "full ranges". Even if its only 10mtr to start with.

No point trying to encourage people into game shooting, if they attempt to get into a club and its like trying to get into the masons.

So how do we tackle that?

How about my idea on a "reserve" membership? Something like a limited license you increase your membership with "limited members" (obviously at a reduced rate). They can only shoot on certain days, etc. (too early to think of all the details now) but will get them a member number and access to the same criteria needed to get their own gun. So it shouldn't impact on the number of lads shooting on the same lands, the amount of game taken, but will bring in much needed monies to the club as well as expanding on club numbers, hence shooting community numbers.

What about bringing in youth members (under 16) without guns to learn the conservation, game breeding and upkeep side? once they turn 16 they can use the club to get their license and will be immediately accepted into the "limited/reserve membership" above?

There must be something that can work for both parties.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 9:31pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Exactly, with a lot of things, less is more and sending letters in every week is going to be pointless. However if the government tries to implement any bans or announces them, then we should send in letters by the truck load. Genuine letters not letters from William X, Will X, Bill X, Billy X etc etc. I think this approach is a must because then the government knows that people oppose bans and restrictions.

Is that John Deasy, the FG TD from Waterford? I remember he tried to sue a newspaper for defamation or something and lost.

I heard about the Rainbow Warrior incident a good while ago, my mother told me that it was in Russia and she had to swim to shore, when in reality they were in port and just had to step off the boat.

I think the best approach is to pretend that we don't exist and let the public thing that "only farmers can have guns". Only speak unless spoken to, sort of approach:D

I was dragged down to that bloody boat when it was in Dublin, i was only a kid at the time. They were made a fuss of in the media and were asking people to come and see them and go onboard. It wasn't long as i recall that it was blown-up. Dunno what got into the french to do that, don't much care either :cool:

Cass · 17-01-2021 9:32pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I think the best approach is to pretend that we don't exist and let the public thing that "only farmers can have guns". Only speak unless spoken to, sort of approach:D

That, to my surprise, is more prevalent than i believed with people actually surprised i own a firearm let alone multiple firearms with some of them being "evil American guns" like AR platform or a pistol. Now don't get me wrong i don't go around telling everyone i own guns, but people i know, speak to frequently, and get to know eventually find out and then ask questions.

This is why i think a public campaign is essential. not to sound like a dick, but we need to educate people. If we only turn a few percent each year its a slow and steady change which we can reply on.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:41pm

Re the media.
I see problems here for us in IRL
1] Boards is really the only more or less, place to get any information as to what's going on.

2] Doubtful that the Irish MSM have ever heard of us,or would be too interested in us either unless it bleeds it leads scenarios "

3] Not everyone in the shooting community likes us here on boards in Ireland for whatever and varied reasons. From being "know it alls to "Telling the Guards everything they know and them using it again us!". While blathering misinformation themselves on FB!:rolleyes:

How difficult is it to set up a Youtube channel as an "Alt news" source to deal with topics? OK,it will no doubt have to comment on things not relevant purely to Ireland on the shooting scene. but as Tudderone said. We are all global now and what affects the US does eventually end up here too. The positive side is with contacts now in Europe with FUN, FACE and others we can get more European perspective and respond to local issues a lot quicker as well as doing online interviews or getting different test reports on firearms as well.

It seems to have anti-gun orgs like "the Trace" worried in the US as they are now trying to deplatform people like Colion Noir , Iraqvet 8888, Forgotten weapons, etc, etc. By doing hit pieces on the companies that support them for spreading misinformation about Bidens gun plans!" you dont do that unless there is a powerful medium and you are scared of it. So maybe this is another ave to explore to get our messages out?

tudderone · 17-01-2021 9:45pm

The only Irish channel i know of is Jason Doyle on Fieldsports Ireland, but thats mainly hunting.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 9:47pm

Cass wrote: »

That, to my surprise, is more prevalent than i believed with people actually surprised i own a firearm let alone multiple firearms with some of them being "evil American guns" like AR platform or a pistol. Now don't get me wrong i don't go around telling everyone i own guns, but people i know, speak to frequently, and get to know eventually find out and then ask questions.

This is why i think a public campaign is essential. not to sound like a dick, but we need to educate people. If we only turn a few percent each year its a slow and steady change which we can reply on.

Yeah, the majority of my family and friends who I was talking to thought that was the case and were suprised to find out target shooting was a thing.

Another note on the previous message, a public figure would be a good idea, someone to put a face to a cause. Obviously someone who doesn't mind the publicity and is a good speaker, not Johnny from the pub.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:50pm

Is that John Deasy, the FG TD from Waterford? I remember he tried to sue a newspaper for defamation or something and los

.

Yup, thats the idiot in question.

I heard about the Rainbow Warrior incident a good while ago, my mother told me that it was in Russia and she had to swim to shore, when in reality they were in port and just had to step off the boat.

You dear ol Ma got the story a bit mixed up there..Grace got the receiving end of a Soviet fire hose while she was climbing up a Soviet nuke freighter anchor chain, and had to swim back to the dingy.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 9:53pm

tudderone wrote: »

The only Irish channel i know of is Jason Doyle on Fieldsports Ireland, but thats mainly hunting.

I think he's the only one. I remember the guy from English Shooting had a video with a journalist talking about English gun laws and the S&W MP15/22. I didn't watch all the video and I can't find it, but I think that was a poor tactic. I don't think we should be saying what we can own but what the ordinary shooter owns, like a bolt action .22 or an o/u shotgun. Perhaps it would be best to steer clear of the evil dangerous fully semi auto territory even if its just a 10/22.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:54pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Another note on the previous message, a public figure would be a good idea, someone to put a face to a cause. Obviously someone who doesn't mind the publicity and is a good speaker, not Johnny from the pub.

Preferably, female, of an ethnic minority, disabled,or trans, and a qualified journalist or media-savvy person ...On the disabled and qualified in media...I know just the person for that role!:p:cool:

badaj0z · 17-01-2021 9:54pm

There is hope. I admin my club's web site and I receive all of the contact messages. The increase in messages asking how to join was very noticeable throughout last year and especially in the "more open Covid " phase leading up to December. Also noticeable was that the age of the people contacting us was averaging in the 30's. We put through the applications up to the start of this year and there is now a backlog, waiting for us to open up again to progress their applications. My own opinion, not necessarily the club's, is that the low profile approach is best for our sport in Ireland. A higher profile attracts more media attention and we will never win that battle, thanks largely to the international media's perspective on guns, largely driven by Europe's view on the gun issue in the USA.

Feisar · 17-01-2021 9:59pm

The first thing that we need to change is the fact ya can’t knock over a few tin cans with a 22 outside of a range. Our sport is so inaccessible these days, I started of with my Dad and his CZ 452.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 10:00pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I don't think we should be saying what we can own but what the ordinary shooter owns, like a bolt action .22 or an o/u shotgun. Perhaps it would be best to steer clear of the evil dangerous fully semi auto territory even if its just a 10/22.

Said the dude looking for a CF semi-auto rifle.:P:P
No, we just point out that it is EXTREMELY difficult to own ,x,y,z...Which it is, and that it is a rigorous process, which it is, and that technically said you "could lose this with no compensation" if this legislation is enacted..which is true, were itto come up. Plus, its the owner of the channel whether he wants to go there or not,not us.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:02pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1] Boards is really the only more or less, place to get any information as to what's going on.

We trudge through all the latest trends, re: social media, and remain the last vestige of open discussion. Well as open as the law allows. FB, Twitter, Youtube, and all the other platforms have slowly being eroding that ability and even the free speech pages started to set rules on discussion which now seems meaningless as they are bing shut down. Only this morning i read that another page on FB was shut down temporarily with a threat of permanent shutdown if they did not stop posting pictures of hunted/shot animals. So that avenue will eventually dry up.

2] Doubtful that the Irish MSM have ever heard of us,or would be too interested in us either unless it bleeds it leads scenarios "

We don't need them. As you said their only interest in us is when something happens that they get to put a picture of a Glock or AK on the screen. So forget them and move on.

3] Not everyone in the shooting community likes us here on boards in Ireland for whatever and varied reasons. From being "know it alls to "Telling the Guards everything they know and them using it again us!". While blathering misinformation themselves on FB!:rolleyes:

So be it. They don't have to like us, register or even post here so long as they can use the site to see what is happening, i'll take it.

How difficult is it to set up a Youtube channel as an "Alt news" source to deal with topics?

For now, not a good idea with "the purge". Perhaps on another platform or in the near future when things have settled. IMO.

OK,it will no doubt have to comment on things not relevant purely to Ireland on the shooting scene. but as Tudderone said. We are all global now and what affects the US does eventually end up here too. The positive side is with contacts now in Europe with FUN, FACE and others we can get more European perspective and respond to local issues a lot quicker as well as doing online interviews or getting different test reports on firearms as well.

On that note i believe our future lies in our European Brethren and not with our American Cousins. Other than the current political climate we have a better relationship with the EU so lets start using it. Time we stopped being viewed as "the island of the west coast of the UK" and started to participate.

So maybe this is another ave to explore to get our messages out?

How about we start with a youtube/video sharing platform thread.

We have the youtube thread but its more for humor and funny pictures. How about we start a new thread with videos of Irish lads and their channels. We can even seek the lads out and ask them to participate on the forum in Q&A, AMA, etc.

Start to advertise their videos and get shooting/hunting out to the public by any means necessary.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:16pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

......., but I think that was a poor tactic. I don't think we should be saying what we can own but what the ordinary shooter owns, like a bolt action .22 or an o/u shotgun. Perhaps it would be best to steer clear of the evil dangerous fully semi auto territory even if its just a 10/22.

Here is one of the problems. We are so nervous about what the public think we don't speak of it, and it ends up getting banned anyway.

If we do discuss it then we take away the mystery and stigma surrounding it.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:17pm

badaj0z wrote: »

There is hope. I admin my club's web site and I receive all of the contact messages. The increase in messages asking how to join was very noticeable throughout last year and especially in the "more open Covid " phase leading up to December.

Good news and good work.

Also noticeable was that the age of the people contacting us was averaging in the 30's.

Getting older too. Not sure of the reasons but the younger generation don't have the same interest whether its lack of exposure or genuine disinterest, but it can be changed, the mentality.

My own opinion, not necessarily the club's, is that the low profile approach is best for our sport in Ireland. A higher profile attracts more media attention and we will never win that battle, thanks largely to the international media's perspective on guns, largely driven by Europe's view on the gun issue in the USA.

I'd disagree for the reasons above. The keep quiet approach is not working in the long term, and we're dying slower, but dying none the less.

Look at the changes in the last 11 year alone. Any gains before 2009 are gone and then some. Plus we're not looking at national exposure in terms of national media, plus they don't want us anyway as most of us found out with the exceptional success of the international teams in pistol and gallery with no media, even local, interested in covering it.

Start small, local, and build from there as and how the reception from those involved is judged. However this is only a discussion and i'm not taking from your work thus far and if its working for your club/range then stick with it.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:17pm

Feisar wrote: »

The first thing that we need to change is the fact ya can’t knock over a few tin cans with a 22 outside of a range. Our sport is so inaccessible these days, I started of with my Dad and his CZ 452.

Exactly.

In the UK and in most EU countries they can shoot at targets outside a range. Our own Minster said he never intended to outlaw such practices, but never done anything to change it. Maybe we can through lobbying and letter writing. I believe, but will check, its only an SI prohibiting it and so can be changed without the need for an amendment, or repeal of a section, to the Act.

Excellent idea btw.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 10:18pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Preferably, female, of an ethnic minority, disabled,or trans, and a qualified journalist or media-savvy person ...On the disabled and qualified in media...I know just the person for that role!:p:cool:

Then they’ll have to listen to them

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 10:20pm

So be it. They don't have to like us, register or even post here so long as they can use the site to see what is happening, i'll take it.

They won't even LOOK at the site they hate it that much,which is the problem. Hence they keep pumping out mis and inaccurate information.

O

n that note i believe our future lies in our European Brethren and not with our American Cousins. Other than the current political climate we have a better relationship with the EU so lets start using it. Time we stopped being viewed as "the island of the west coast of the UK" and started to participate.

Agreed.

We have the youtube thread but its more for humor and funny pictures. How about we start a new thread with videos of Irish lads and their channels. We can even seek the lads out and ask them to participate on the forum in Q&A, AMA, etc.

Start to advertise their videos and get shooting/hunting out to the public by any means necessary.

Yeah, this is the thing tho. How many YT vids are there on or from Irish lads and their channels that produce current up to date clips? And this is one ting that would help immensely here on boards is. Can it be modified to use audio questions and replies? Which would be a need for such as well as being helpful for longer posts?

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County