Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

khalessi · 08-01-2021 9:40pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

17 pages on Updated Guidance on Continuity of Schooling:
Supporting pupils at risk of educational disadvantage
For primary schools
16 pages on Updated Guidance on Continuity of Schooling:
Supporting Pupils with Special Educational Needs
For mainstream primary and special schools

Arrived at 19.08 to schools this evening.

Well Friday night is traditional horror night and reading that will get ye in the mood:D

Locotastic · 08-01-2021 10:00pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

If zooms to be increased will there be some childcare facility for those who need it? Presume no mention of this?

Childcare for who?

Barbeapapa · 08-01-2021 10:01pm

So, for now the exam goes ahead. That's all good and well but there have been no concessions bar an extra question added to acknowledge the terribly curtailed leaving cert course these students have had. To listen to Norma et al, her goal is a leaving cert exactly like other years so why wouldn't these kids be terrified. They know the course is not finished and has no hope of being so unless you're in a cram school. And then you have the likes of History Queen saying "There are 6 months to go" when there are 4 at best (with time off for good behaviour).

Matt Cooper suggesting the leaving cert runs into July....obviously his kids don't have to dedicate their summer's to working for university funds. Oh the privilege. Others suggesting the 6th years get their summer holidays now and do school and exams right through summer months....

I despair. And I feel for these kids. Accept and acknowledge that they have been disadvantaged, openly adjust the exams to allow for that and make it as fair as they are currently trying not to. And then hold the exams as planned on June 9th.

jrosen · 08-01-2021 10:05pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

If zooms to be increased will there be some childcare facility for those who need it? Presume no mention of this?

Childcare for who? The staff?
No mention of it but I wouldn’t expect it to be mentioned on communication with parents.

History Queen · 08-01-2021 10:07pm

Barbeapapa wrote: »

So, for now the exam goes ahead. That's all good and well but there have been no concessions bar an extra question added to acknowledge the terribly curtailed leaving cert course these students have had. To listen to Norma et al, her goal is a leaving cert exactly like other years so why wouldn't these kids be terrified. They know the course is not finished and has no hope of being so unless you're in a cram school. And then you have the likes of History Queen saying "There are 6 months to go" when there are 4 at best (with time off for good behaviour).

Matt Cooper suggesting the leaving cert runs into July....obviously his kids don't have to dedicate their summer's to working for university funds. Oh the privilege. Others suggesting the 6th years get their summer holidays now and do school and exams right through summer months....

I despair. And I feel for these kids. Accept and acknowledge that they have been disadvantaged, openly adjust the exams to allow for that and make it as fair as they are currently trying not to. And then hold the exams as planned on June 9th.

The likes of me happens to be a concerned teacher. I'm trying to reassure students not add to their stress. The exams have been adjusted, different adjustments to different subjects and I have called for further adjustment if necessary. I don'tunderstand what you mean by 4 months at best? I agree exams should be held in June and don't really understand why you have a problem with "the likes" of me.

Locotastic · 08-01-2021 10:17pm

jrosen wrote: »

Childcare for who? The staff?
No mention of it but I wouldn’t expect it to be mentioned on communication with parents.

I wouldn't expect it to be provided at all.

I sincerely hope they are not asking for childcare so that teachers can do zoom.

This is part of normal working life now. Why would teachers working from home get childcare facilities provided so they can do zoom classes.

I'd imagine everyone managing to work from home has to do similar to a degree meetings/conference calls, training etc. Do their companies provide childcare facilities to accommodate it? Highly doubt it.

Not to mention there's still a large number of the population not working from home who just get on with it.

plodder · 08-01-2021 10:29pm

penny piper wrote: »

The Irish Times has just reported that the South African varient is here at Ireland.....3 cases at the moment ....Idk how schools can go back 31st January...
They need to come up with an alternative to the LC asap..

31 Jan might not be realistic. But, we should get the vaccine to teachers who need it. Even these more virulent strains are not going to affect students severely. So, delay the LC by a couple of months if necessary, but stick to plan A imo.

khalessi · 08-01-2021 10:32pm

plodder wrote: »

31 Jan might not be realistic. But, we should get the vaccine to teachers who need it. Even these more virulent strains are not going to affect students severely. So, delay the LC by a couple of months if necessary, but stick to plan A imo.

i think Norma will try for 31st won't like being shown up again.

the corpo · 08-01-2021 10:45pm

I reckon the Department are so gung-ho to avoid predictive grades at all costs because if they do it again, it'll be almost impossible to revert next year, and god forbid they finally have to overhaul the Leaving Cert system...

plodder · 08-01-2021 10:54pm

Well, predictive grades are not ideal. There are around 50 court cases underway over them. While, they obviously suit some people, that isn't the way to reform the LC in my opinion.

Dickie10 · 09-01-2021 12:22am

the more i think of LC the more i think we should put it off til first monday in july, work on in school with LC only til June 25th. i would have no problem with this. although i know people commuting long journeys it would be hardship. a month extra might see most vulnerable vaccinated

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 09-01-2021 1:02am

Dickie10 wrote: »

the more i think of LC the more i think we should put it off til first monday in july, work on in school with LC only til June 25th. i would have no problem with this. although i know people commuting long journeys it would be hardship. a month extra might see most vulnerable vaccinated

It's all up in the air but maybe they might consider vaccinating the LCs.

Imagine suspecting you have covid, but chancing going to the exam hall anyway as you don't want to lose a year of your life and then taking down half the place with you.

Vaccinate or have an alternate paper ready for August too so people don't miss a whole year if things go belly up.

LC prob isn't happening anyway so just spitballing.

Mrsmum · 09-01-2021 1:04am

History Queen wrote: »

I don'tunderstand what you mean by 4 months at best? .

In fairness, it definately isn't six months. Today is the 9th Jan, exams normally happen 6th june- that five months. Deduct the midterm, Easter and week before exams and that's another month of non face to face or even remote so that's kinda closer to four months that pupils have with their teachers.

jrosen · 09-01-2021 1:13am

I’d like to see the LC go ahead. I think it’s important. It’s too important to let drag out again like they did last year.
I spoke to a teacher last year who said she left a lot of her other students with minimal work so she could focus on her LC students. I can see why she made that decision.
I would hate for that to happen again, unfair to the teacher and unfair to the other students some of who could be JC.

amacca · 09-01-2021 2:02am

I think the constant zoom calls is counter productive....live class, assignments, feedback (live if necessary) having a teacher live all the time means kids will probably learn less and then if my OHs experience last year anything to go by, kids and parents will be complaining they are too stressed being contacted all the time and the workload is too much etc etc:pac::pac:

Could be different for primary level but for secondary especially as they get older a clear explanation of a topic/concept, time to get to grips through practice then maybe question and answer followed by feedback in a live session...if principals get too prescriptive it will probably be self defeating and if parents just want a teacher live all the time to entertain the kids then that won't work out too well as a significant portion of them won't be entertained by actual academic work and another portion will try every trick in the book to not have to do anything and will probably stress the hell.out of the parent that has to drag them kicking and screaming to every class period they are timetabled to be at...would be better if the were made do the work assigned imo

Another big complaint last year was the wifi internet wasn't available at class times as the parents were using it at the same time (wfh) ....then there was the cohort of parents that couldn't give a toss about the kid learning and didn't want the stress of the school letting them know their kids weren't participating/making an effort etc in the end students and parents asked the school to ease off and give them less work!

History Queen · 09-01-2021 2:10am

Mrsmum wrote: »

In fairness, it definately isn't six months. Today is the 9th Jan, exams normally happen 6th june- that five months. Deduct the midterm, Easter and week before exams and that's another month of non face to face or even remote so that's kinda closer to four months that pupils have with their teachers.

True. I was thinking of June being the 6th month! Brain fart! And also I was talking months in terms of study time not just teaching but I take your point.

khalessi · 09-01-2021 2:25am

HAve ye read this?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40203260.html

Daniel McConnell: Students pay the price for Department of Education's floundering failures

Smacruairi · 09-01-2021 2:28am

plodder wrote: »

Well, predictive grades are not ideal. There are around 50 court cases underway over them. While, they obviously suit some people, that isn't the way to reform the LC in my opinion.

Is predictive grades go again, teachers will inflate absolutely everything. I work in a school where we were told to bring it in line with previous percentages awarded (to make sure we did it fairly, but also not to draw an audit on the school in case) only to see the school down the road balloon and us drop below in certain subjects.

That mistake won't happen again.

History Queen · 09-01-2021 2:31am

khalessi wrote: »

HAve ye read this?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40203260.html

Daniel McConnell: Students pay the price for Department of Education's floundering failures

Yes, not a fan of McConnell but when you read all of the Department f-ups since the start of the pandemic, you have to wonder when will accountability be demanded?

Also worries me that students and parents would trust a predicted grades system overseen by this Department again.

Icyseanfitz · 09-01-2021 2:31am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

She is throwing teachers an a profession under the bus. I'd love to know what her former colleagues in Kerry think of her now?

we dont think much of her i can assure you

Smacruairi · 09-01-2021 2:32am

khalessi wrote: »

HAve ye read this?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40203260.html

Daniel McConnell: Students pay the price for Department of Education's floundering failures

Great article. He was railing against the union the other night on twitter, obviously read his comments.

mirrorwall14 · 09-01-2021 2:40am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Great article. He was railing against the union the other night on twitter, obviously read his comments.

Yeah that’s the first time I’ve seen the examiner actually read beyond the ****e they get fed by the department of education.

They have been a rip roaring disgrace the lot of them. And I repeat my comments of the last night for anyone who missed them.

I know no teacher who would prefer to be teaching online. Not one. I know of no teacher who would have been unreasonable in organising the LCs to be the first back in. As soon as it is possible and safe to do so. I know of no teacher or parent or student, who would have objected if she had bothered to consult properly and just wait, even a week, until we were sure the situation was stable.

I know of no SEN teacher or SNA or worker involved in special education who does not realise that these students need some school. However, again, this minister did not bother to discuss what might actually be workable, or address the concerns of all parties so that we could try and provide some respite to these parents and students. She just ploughed on. She wanted her moment of glory.

It is her and the cabinet who caused this stand off

It is THEIR fault that this has come to pass. Not parents. Not students. Not teachers. Not anyone involved in schools.

wirelessdude01 · 09-01-2021 9:45am

khalessi wrote: »

HAve ye read this?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40203260.html

Daniel McConnell: Students pay the price for Department of Education's floundering failures

He is/was looking to jump on he gravy train and become an advisor. This piece is very out of sync with much of his previous commentary.

Loafing Oaf · 09-01-2021 10:26am

khalessi wrote: »

HAve ye read this?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40203260.html

Daniel McConnell: Students pay the price for Department of Education's floundering failures

I think he's on the money here

there is now merit in deciding as soon as possible that if the lockdown does extend beyond the end of January, then the State exams should be cancelled this year.

Stateofyou · 09-01-2021 11:08am

To be honest, I was wondering (and posted about it at the end of the previous thread) what the Unions had done proactively. I think the
DES / Minister Foley have the lions share of responsibility here, but I did wonder if or why not, Unions hadn't put forward their own outlines and suggestions for how things in the schools should go. I suspected they tried but wasn't sure.
Then, I just saw a document posted to the Alerting Parents of Outbreaks fb page, and it seems the National Principals Forum did try, and they put out a statement. Here's an incredible excerpt from that statement:

"We have repeatedly called for engagement and collaboration with the Minister, DES and NCSE since the initial lockdown, to avoid such a situation where possible, or at the very least to devise contingency plans that would cause the least disruption and provide greater support to the pupils and families of our most vulnerable pupils. This has not been facilitated in any way, nor our experience welcomed or utilised in the formation of education policy."

Heads. Need. To. Roll. :mad:

Here's some more delightful reading from that document:

"The lack of foresight, consultation and planning by the DES is an ongoing source of deep concern and disappointment to us, and despite the spin and optics of the situation, it is not the fault of the BOM's, principals, teachers or SNA's. It is the result of persistent bad planning, underfunding, under resourcing and neglect of SEN by successive governments. A shameful legacy."

..."Meaningful consultation with those on the ground and measured, responsible planning, real supports and action is what is needed and what we ask for."

"We restate our desire for consultation with the Minister and DES to address the many issues maligning our primary education system with a view to affective positive change in a spirit of cooperation and proactivity."

DAMN...:mad:

wirelessdude01 · 09-01-2021 11:12am

Stateofyou wrote: »

To be honest, I was wondering (and posted about it at the end of the previous thread) what the Unions had done proactively. I think the
DES / Minister Foley have the lions share of responsibility here, but I did wonder if or why not, Unions hadn't put forward their own outlines and suggestions for how things in the schools should go. I suspected they tried but wasn't sure.
Then, I just saw a document posted to the Alerting Parents of Outbreaks fb page, and it seems the National Principals Forum did try, and they put out a statement. Here's an incredible excerpt from that statement:

"We have repeatedly called for engagement and collaboration with the Minister, DES and NCSE since the initial lockdown, to avoid such a situation where possible, or at the very least to devise contingency plans that would cause the least disruption and provide greater support to the pupils and families of our most vulnerable pupils. This has not been facilitated in any way, nor our experience welcomed or utilised in the formation of education policy."

Heads. Need. To. Roll. :mad:

Here's some more delightful reading from that document:

"The lack of foresight, consultation and planning by the DES is an ongoing source of deep concern and disappointment to us, and despite the spin and optics of the situation, it is not the fault of the BOM's, principals, teachers or SNA's. It is the result of persistent bad planning, underfunding, under resourcing and neglect of SEN by successive governments. A shameful legacy."

..."Meaningful consultation with those on the ground and measured, responsible planning, real supports and action is what is needed and what we ask for."

"We restate our desire for consultation with the Minister and DES to address the many issues maligning our primary education system with a view to affective positive change in a spirit of cooperation and proactivity."

DAMN...:mad:

Cannot speak for the ASTI and TUI but know for a fact that the INTO and also the Principals forum submitted very detailed planning documents back at the end of June/start of July for consideration for thr reopening school phase of things. Both were roundly ignored.

DES refuse to engage or even acknowledge the Principals forum.

Stateofyou · 09-01-2021 11:22am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Cannot speak for the ASTI and TUI but know for a fact that the INTO and also the Principals forum submitted very detailed planning documents back at the end of June/start of July for consideration for thr reopening school phase of things. Both were roundly ignored.

DES refuse to engage or even acknowledge the Principals forum.

It's insanity. The arrogance and ineptitude here is truly disgraceful. It's outrageous. I can't quite find the words to accurately convey my utter disgust and contempt for these people in government. Knowing all the ministers signed off on that cocked up plan-what the fvuck is WRONG with these people? I've never worked in education management a day in my life, but I'm 100% sure I could do a better job.

To start they need to humble themselves and bring in those with the experience and tap into the boots on the ground. It should be all hands on deck.

The SHEER fvcking arrogance of those overpaid ministers on taxpayer money while disadvantaging our kids and our family's. How dare they.

I need to go calm down.

Natterjack from Kerry · 09-01-2021 11:33am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Cannot speak for the ASTI and TUI but know for a fact that the INTO and also the Principals forum submitted very detailed planning documents back at the end of June/start of July for consideration for thr reopening school phase of things. Both were roundly ignored.

Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

wirelessdude01 · 09-01-2021 11:38am

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

How have I refused to carry out my job?

Not one single teacher refused their labor.

juneg · 09-01-2021 11:39am

I think the narrative that the politicians stuck to like a piece of wreckage in a storm has backfired very very badly. The mantra of the schools are safe , the schools will stay open in level 5, the schools will stay open no matter what. It reminds me of the days of Comical Ali. This mantra has done huge damage because it was a lie that the people believed.

There is no point in all the stories and tears now about the special schools, the distressed children and families, the leaving certs. They were sacrificed on the altar of hospitality and having a good Christmas. It was in early December that the stark warning should have gone out that your schools will close, your construction will close, you will be back on the PUP, you will be back to online learning, the leaving cert will be in danger . The public need stark warnings and truth not platitudes. I really feel the constant flawed mantra has us where we are now.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 09-01-2021 11:46am

juneg wrote: »

They were sacrificed on the altar of hospitality and having a good Christmas.

This x1000

downthemiddle · 09-01-2021 11:46am

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

A toad from Kerry with an interesting perspective. Are you Norma's hairdresser perchance?

Stateofyou · 09-01-2021 11:49am

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

Re-reg I see.

Not implementing them does mean exactly that - they were ignored. Because what we have here now are not the best outcomes for those in our school communities. Obviously.

They didn't consult with the Unions or health experts because they knew they wouldn't be able to move forward in the way they did and try for a political win.

They failed spectacularly.

Murple · 09-01-2021 12:47pm

The fact that the department didn’t put in place anything for pupils who couldn’t attend school, for whatever reason, once they opened in September should show you who is to blame. Schools were not provided with any additional resources to cater for pupils who were forced to cocoon. We were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Nothing was put in place to support pupils who had to restrict movements. Schools were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Use the SEN teachers (who in the majority of schools are already under huge pressure time wise to cater for their existing caseloads) or utilise a teacher who may be high risk and working from home (but a school may not have any such person on their staff).
If you have prepared dinner for 4 and you’re then told, hang on you need to feed the family of 6 next door as well, what happens? Everyone gets less and some inevitably go hungry.
Yet the wider public has the expectation that schools will do far more than before and cater for everyone’s individual needs and circumstances.

The department was so focused on schools are safe places, they shall stay open regardless that they didn’t do anything to make arrangements for an alternative scenario. They send school inspectors in to check that schools were following Covid guidelines. Could they not have utilised these inspectors to create a bank of online lessons, using the expertise of those teachers seconded to the department to do in-service to make some recorded lessons? Could they not have engaged some of the IT and animating expertise in the country to create some content that would be available for teachers to help them create lessons?
This idea of live lessons is fine but what the majority of primary parents need is something they can access easily at a time that suits them. I firmly believe the parent voices we hear so loudly on social media and various forums shouting for all day live lessons and Zoom calls do not represent the majority of parents. It baffles me as to why they are not setting up Zoom calls themselves to allow their children to link up with classmates at weekends and in the afternoons.

amacca · 09-01-2021 12:51pm

Murple wrote: »

The fact that the department didn’t put in place anything for pupils who couldn’t attend school, for whatever reason, once they opened in September should show you who is to blame. Schools were not provided with any additional resources to cater for pupils who were forced to cocoon. We were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Nothing was put in place to support pupils who had to restrict movements. Schools were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Use the SEN teachers (who in the majority of schools are already under huge pressure time wise to cater for their existing caseloads) or utilise a teacher who may be high risk and working from home (but a school may not have any such person on their staff).
If you have prepared dinner for 4 and you’re then told, hang on you need to feed the family of 6 next door as well, what happens? Everyone gets less and some inevitably go hungry.
Yet the wider public has the expectation that schools will do far more than before and cater for everyone’s individual needs and circumstances.

The department was so focused on schools are safe places, they shall stay open regardless that they didn’t do anything to make arrangements for an alternative scenario. They send school inspectors in to check that schools were following Covid guidelines. Could they not have utilised these inspectors to create a bank of online lessons, using the expertise of those teachers seconded to the department to do in-service to make some recorded lessons? Could they not have engaged some of the IT and animating expertise in the country to create some content that would be available for teachers to help them create lessons?
This idea of live lessons is fine but what the majority of primary parents need is something they can access easily at a time that suits them. I firmly believe the parent voices we hear so loudly on social media and various forums shouting for all day live lessons and Zoom calls do not represent the majority of parents. It baffles me as to why they are not setting up Zoom calls themselves to allow their children to link up with classmates at weekends and in the afternoons.

good points

Locotastic · 09-01-2021 1:14pm

juneg wrote: »

There is no point in all the stories and tears now about the special schools, the distressed children and families, the leaving certs. They were sacrificed on the altar of hospitality and having a good Christmas. It was in early December that the stark warning should have gone out that your schools will close, your construction will close, you will be back on the PUP, you will be back to online learning, the leaving cert will be in danger . The public need stark warnings and truth not platitudes. I really feel the constant flawed mantra has us where we are now.

Not to mention the knock on effect to frontline workers who are now faced with the decision whether to attend work or stay home to educate their children.

With frontline services already weakened by staff absences and excessive workloads, the implications are much more far reaching than people think.

eviltwin · 09-01-2021 1:23pm

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

Teachers are doing their jobs albeit in a different way but that's pandemics for you. Most people working through this have made changes. Do you think I have sit down sessions with my clients at the moment? No, I'm doing most of work on the phone and some of them aren't happy, some of their families aren't happy but that's how it has to be. Same for teachers, they will teach as best they can but you can't expect business as usual, at this point in the pandemic its common sense to make these changes.

Every sector has had to make changes and I think most of us accept and understand why this has had to happen. Why are schools the one place people think it should be business as usual?

MY BAD · 09-01-2021 1:37pm

Are teachers expected to use their own personal mobiles to contact the parents or is it just through SeeSaw and email? Just wondering how it will be done.

wirelessdude01 · 09-01-2021 1:42pm

MY BAD wrote: »

Are teachers expected to use their own personal mobiles to contact the parents or is it just through SeeSaw and email? Just wondering how it will be done.

No need to be ringing a parent unless it's an emergency or checking up after an unanswered email.

BonsaiKitten · 09-01-2021 2:17pm

MY BAD wrote: »

Are teachers expected to use their own personal mobiles to contact the parents or is it just through SeeSaw and email? Just wondering how it will be done.

No way would I ever ring a parent on my personal number. Never ever. But I'd say some principals will expect it alright.

Murple · 09-01-2021 2:21pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Teachers are doing their jobs albeit in a different way but that's pandemics for you. Most people working through this have made changes. Do you think I have sit down sessions with my clients at the moment? No, I'm doing most of work on the phone and some of them aren't happy, some of their families aren't happy but that's how it has to be. Same for teachers, they will teach as best they can but you can't expect business as usual, at this point in the pandemic its common sense to make these changes.

Every sector has had to make changes and I think most of us accept and understand why this has had to happen. Why are schools the one place people think it should be business as usual?

Agree 100% with this. Every where I go, I’m getting service that is less than I would normally expect or accept. Does it bother me? Not really because we are in exceptional times. Everyone is under stress and trying to cope with the emotional toll this is taking as well as try to keep the show running.
I know from seeing family members work from home, there isn’t the same expectation to be one show’ and do everything as it would normally be done. Work is set that can be done at home, not normal workplace activities by any means. Most contact is via email or phone call. Zoom calls are not always expected to be screens on. And these are in jobs where a fairly big proportion of their normal jobs in the office would be done via email or phone call anyway.

Murple · 09-01-2021 2:24pm

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

No way would I ever ring a parent on my personal number. Never ever. But I'd say some principals will expect it alright.

I just block my number and email the parent to arrange a time so they know to answer.
If it’s a student/parent not engaging, I would expect the call to come from the school number. I think an email in those circumstances is better as there is a record of contact being made.

Deeec · 09-01-2021 2:49pm

Murple wrote: »

Agree 100% with this. Every where I go, I’m getting service that is less than I would normally expect or accept. Does it bother me? Not really because we are in exceptional times. Everyone is under stress and trying to cope with the emotional toll this is taking as well as try to keep the show running.
I know from seeing family members work from home, there isn’t the same expectation to be one show’ and do everything as it would normally be done. Work is set that can be done at home, not normal workplace activities by any means. Most contact is via email or phone call. Zoom calls are not always expected to be screens on. And these are in jobs where a fairly big proportion of their normal jobs in the office would be done via email or phone call anyway.

While I agree with most of what you have said here I dont agree that all employers with work from home employees have lower expectations of what work can be achieved during these times. I work as an accountant and I am expected to do the exact same work as I would in the office and work to the same deadlines. It simply wouldnt be acceptable for people not to receive their wages or tax returns not completed because Im working from home and have to mind the kids and didnt have time to process them. Id be told where to go very quick!!

Most work from home people are under the same pressure as me. For parents childminding, working and homeschooling it is very very difficult. I dont think this point is appreciated and understood by alot of people.

wirelessdude01 · 09-01-2021 2:50pm

Murple wrote: »

I just block my number and email the parent to arrange a time so they know to answer.
If it’s a student/parent not engaging, I would expect the call to come from the school number. I think an email in those circumstances is better as there is a record of contact being made.

Personally I won't be driving over 45mins to and from school to make that call. A few emails to see, then a call to see and if still no reply then the principal can take over.

jrosen · 09-01-2021 2:58pm

Deeec wrote: »

While I agree with most of what you have said here I dont agree that all employers with work from home employees have lower expectations of what work can be achieved during these times. I work as an accountant and I am expected to do the exact same work as I would in the office and work to the same deadlines. It simply wouldnt be acceptable for people not to receive their wages or tax returns not completed because Im working from home and have to mind the kids and didnt have time to process them. Id be told where to go very quick!!

Most work from home people are under the same pressure as me. For parents childminding, working and homeschooling it is very very difficult. I dont think this point is appreciated and understood by alot of people.

My husbands firm is the same. Huge multi national. Their staff have been afforded flexibility but have been told their deliverables are still their priority.

Murple · 09-01-2021 2:59pm

Deeec wrote: »

While I agree with most of what you have said here I dont agree that all employers with work from home employees have lower expectations of what work can be achieved during these times. I work as an accountant and I am expected to do the exact same work as I would in the office and work to the same deadlines. It simply wouldnt be acceptable for people not to receive their wages or tax returns not completed because Im working from home and have to mind the kids and didnt have time to process them. Id be told where to go very quick!!

Most work from home people are under the same pressure as me. For parents childminding, working and homeschooling it is very very difficult. I dont think this point is appreciated and understood by alot of people.

It’s not just parents that have to juggle a lot when working from home. The parents of children I work with probably look at me as a teacher with no children so no pressures at home. I’m a carer for an elderly parent with advanced dementia who needs full time care, as much care as a baby but the size of an adult. When schools are closed and I’m at home, I’m doing this all day long for most of the week. I can’t do live teaching with an adult moaning and crying in the background, to protect my pupils as much as to protect the dignity of my loved one.
That often isn’t appreciated either as I often read comments like ‘and the teacher doesn’t even have children so has no responsibilities at home’. People will understand a child interrupting a Zoom call and often welcome the distraction. They are not so comfortable with the realities of life caring for an adult with significant care needs.

MY BAD · 09-01-2021 3:00pm

I'm not a teacher or parent myself. I know teachers in small 2 or 3 teacher schools where they were told to call the parents and be available to take calls or WhatsApp from parents if they are having any issues. I just thought that it was mad request.

Stateofyou · 09-01-2021 3:04pm

I see both Murple and Deeec sides. On the one hand I know lots of employers of friends/family including my own who are flexible and generous in understanding the demands on people now. Deadlines are extended and expectations are relaxed. Also the mental health side of things affects productivity. CIPD/HR bodies are pumping this information out and urging employers & their HR staff to take this into account and recommending how to best support their staff.

On the other hand, I also know of some employers and from reading on social media who are unreasonable or maybe in some instances unable to accommodate a drop in productivity. I would bet most employers are able to allow some level of flexibility though. After all, they would be going through similar effects themselves. I feel for those who have ars@hole employers who treat their staff as if they are less than human.

jrosen · 09-01-2021 3:12pm

Stateofyou wrote: »

I see both Murple and Deeec sides. On the one hand I know lots of employers of friends/family including my own who are flexible and generous in understanding the demands on people now. Deadlines are extended and expectations are relaxed. Also the mental health side of things affects productivity. CIPD/HR bodies are pumping this information out and urging employers & their HR staff to take this into account and recommending how to best support their staff.

On the other hand, I also know of some employers and from reading on social media who are unreasonable or maybe in some instances unable to accommodate a drop in productivity. I would bet most employers are able to allow some level of flexibility though. After all, they would be going through similar effects themselves. I feel for those who have ars@hole employers who treat their staff as if they are less than human.

At the end of the day as an employer you are offering a service to your customers. Someone is paying your company for the services you provide. If your company can’t provide those services or can’t do so in a timely manor your customer will take their business elsewhere. It’s easy as an employee to shrug your shoulders but if there is no one paying your company then you won’t have a job. These are the concerns management have, this is where their concerns are.
Dh had one of his managers contact him yesterday asking could her team use parental leave/annual leave, could x have another week off. His question to her was, are you going to do their work? That’s the reality for a lot of industries. The work doesn’t go away. Someone else simply gets more to do.

I think it’s really important to be flexible, to understand how difficult it can be for someone at home who now has kids to look after or indeed an elderly parent. But that flexibility works both ways and if you need time out during the day to take care of family that’s ok, but you then should be logging back in that night to finish your work.

Deeec · 09-01-2021 3:16pm

Murple wrote: »

It’s not just parents that have to juggle a lot when working from home. The parents of children I work with probably look at me as a teacher with no children so no pressures at home. I’m a carer for an elderly parent with advanced dementia who needs full time care, as much care as a baby but the size of an adult. When schools are closed and I’m at home, I’m doing this all day long for most of the week. I can’t do live teaching with an adult moaning and crying in the background, to protect my pupils as much as to protect the dignity of my loved one.
That often isn’t appreciated either as I often read comments like ‘and the teacher doesn’t even have children so has no responsibilities at home’. People will understand a child interrupting a Zoom call and often welcome the distraction. They are not so comfortable with the realities of life caring for an adult with significant care needs.

Murple I too have a relative with dementia and I understand the pressure you are under. It is very tough going - It is worse than looking after children IMO. I wouldnt expect teachers to work a full day online - thats completely unreasonable for lots of reasons. I just wanted to make the point that some of us WFH people are working to the exact same expectations as precovid. Also we dont know what is going on in the lives of other people and often make wrong assumptions.

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01