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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Comments



  • juneg wrote: »
    They were sacrificed on the altar of hospitality and having a good Christmas.

    This x1000




  • Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

    A toad from Kerry with an interesting perspective. Are you Norma's hairdresser perchance?




  • Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.


    Re-reg I see.

    Not implementing them does mean exactly that - they were ignored. Because what we have here now are not the best outcomes for those in our school communities. Obviously.

    They didn't consult with the Unions or health experts because they knew they wouldn't be able to move forward in the way they did and try for a political win.

    They failed spectacularly.




  • The fact that the department didn’t put in place anything for pupils who couldn’t attend school, for whatever reason, once they opened in September should show you who is to blame. Schools were not provided with any additional resources to cater for pupils who were forced to cocoon. We were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Nothing was put in place to support pupils who had to restrict movements. Schools were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Use the SEN teachers (who in the majority of schools are already under huge pressure time wise to cater for their existing caseloads) or utilise a teacher who may be high risk and working from home (but a school may not have any such person on their staff).
    If you have prepared dinner for 4 and you’re then told, hang on you need to feed the family of 6 next door as well, what happens? Everyone gets less and some inevitably go hungry.
    Yet the wider public has the expectation that schools will do far more than before and cater for everyone’s individual needs and circumstances.

    The department was so focused on schools are safe places, they shall stay open regardless that they didn’t do anything to make arrangements for an alternative scenario. They send school inspectors in to check that schools were following Covid guidelines. Could they not have utilised these inspectors to create a bank of online lessons, using the expertise of those teachers seconded to the department to do in-service to make some recorded lessons? Could they not have engaged some of the IT and animating expertise in the country to create some content that would be available for teachers to help them create lessons?
    This idea of live lessons is fine but what the majority of primary parents need is something they can access easily at a time that suits them. I firmly believe the parent voices we hear so loudly on social media and various forums shouting for all day live lessons and Zoom calls do not represent the majority of parents. It baffles me as to why they are not setting up Zoom calls themselves to allow their children to link up with classmates at weekends and in the afternoons.




  • Murple wrote: »
    The fact that the department didn’t put in place anything for pupils who couldn’t attend school, for whatever reason, once they opened in September should show you who is to blame. Schools were not provided with any additional resources to cater for pupils who were forced to cocoon. We were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Nothing was put in place to support pupils who had to restrict movements. Schools were told to cater for them out of ‘existing resources’. Use the SEN teachers (who in the majority of schools are already under huge pressure time wise to cater for their existing caseloads) or utilise a teacher who may be high risk and working from home (but a school may not have any such person on their staff).
    If you have prepared dinner for 4 and you’re then told, hang on you need to feed the family of 6 next door as well, what happens? Everyone gets less and some inevitably go hungry.
    Yet the wider public has the expectation that schools will do far more than before and cater for everyone’s individual needs and circumstances.

    The department was so focused on schools are safe places, they shall stay open regardless that they didn’t do anything to make arrangements for an alternative scenario. They send school inspectors in to check that schools were following Covid guidelines. Could they not have utilised these inspectors to create a bank of online lessons, using the expertise of those teachers seconded to the department to do in-service to make some recorded lessons? Could they not have engaged some of the IT and animating expertise in the country to create some content that would be available for teachers to help them create lessons?
    This idea of live lessons is fine but what the majority of primary parents need is something they can access easily at a time that suits them. I firmly believe the parent voices we hear so loudly on social media and various forums shouting for all day live lessons and Zoom calls do not represent the majority of parents. It baffles me as to why they are not setting up Zoom calls themselves to allow their children to link up with classmates at weekends and in the afternoons.

    good points


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  • juneg wrote: »

    There is no point in all the stories and tears now about the special schools, the distressed children and families, the leaving certs. They were sacrificed on the altar of hospitality and having a good Christmas. It was in early December that the stark warning should have gone out that your schools will close, your construction will close, you will be back on the PUP, you will be back to online learning, the leaving cert will be in danger . The public need stark warnings and truth not platitudes. I really feel the constant flawed mantra has us where we are now.

    Not to mention the knock on effect to frontline workers who are now faced with the decision whether to attend work or stay home to educate their children.

    With frontline services already weakened by staff absences and excessive workloads, the implications are much more far reaching than people think.




  • Not implementing them does not mean they were ignored. They can have been legitimately dismissed. Teachers, admittedly through disfunctional and militant unions, so I would not tar all teachers with the same brush, have let the country and their pupils down by not carrying out their roles as requested by the country, the department, and their employer. I consider it unfair to charge the DES and Ms Foley with fault when teachers simply refuse to carry out their jobs.

    Teachers are doing their jobs albeit in a different way but that's pandemics for you. Most people working through this have made changes. Do you think I have sit down sessions with my clients at the moment? No, I'm doing most of work on the phone and some of them aren't happy, some of their families aren't happy but that's how it has to be. Same for teachers, they will teach as best they can but you can't expect business as usual, at this point in the pandemic its common sense to make these changes.

    Every sector has had to make changes and I think most of us accept and understand why this has had to happen. Why are schools the one place people think it should be business as usual?




  • Are teachers expected to use their own personal mobiles to contact the parents or is it just through SeeSaw and email? Just wondering how it will be done.




  • MY BAD wrote: »
    Are teachers expected to use their own personal mobiles to contact the parents or is it just through SeeSaw and email? Just wondering how it will be done.

    No need to be ringing a parent unless it's an emergency or checking up after an unanswered email.




  • MY BAD wrote: »
    Are teachers expected to use their own personal mobiles to contact the parents or is it just through SeeSaw and email? Just wondering how it will be done.

    No way would I ever ring a parent on my personal number. Never ever. But I'd say some principals will expect it alright.


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  • eviltwin wrote: »
    Teachers are doing their jobs albeit in a different way but that's pandemics for you. Most people working through this have made changes. Do you think I have sit down sessions with my clients at the moment? No, I'm doing most of work on the phone and some of them aren't happy, some of their families aren't happy but that's how it has to be. Same for teachers, they will teach as best they can but you can't expect business as usual, at this point in the pandemic its common sense to make these changes.

    Every sector has had to make changes and I think most of us accept and understand why this has had to happen. Why are schools the one place people think it should be business as usual?

    Agree 100% with this. Every where I go, I’m getting service that is less than I would normally expect or accept. Does it bother me? Not really because we are in exceptional times. Everyone is under stress and trying to cope with the emotional toll this is taking as well as try to keep the show running.
    I know from seeing family members work from home, there isn’t the same expectation to be one show’ and do everything as it would normally be done. Work is set that can be done at home, not normal workplace activities by any means. Most contact is via email or phone call. Zoom calls are not always expected to be screens on. And these are in jobs where a fairly big proportion of their normal jobs in the office would be done via email or phone call anyway.




  • No way would I ever ring a parent on my personal number. Never ever. But I'd say some principals will expect it alright.

    I just block my number and email the parent to arrange a time so they know to answer.
    If it’s a student/parent not engaging, I would expect the call to come from the school number. I think an email in those circumstances is better as there is a record of contact being made.




  • Murple wrote: »
    Agree 100% with this. Every where I go, I’m getting service that is less than I would normally expect or accept. Does it bother me? Not really because we are in exceptional times. Everyone is under stress and trying to cope with the emotional toll this is taking as well as try to keep the show running.
    I know from seeing family members work from home, there isn’t the same expectation to be one show’ and do everything as it would normally be done. Work is set that can be done at home, not normal workplace activities by any means. Most contact is via email or phone call. Zoom calls are not always expected to be screens on. And these are in jobs where a fairly big proportion of their normal jobs in the office would be done via email or phone call anyway.

    While I agree with most of what you have said here I dont agree that all employers with work from home employees have lower expectations of what work can be achieved during these times. I work as an accountant and I am expected to do the exact same work as I would in the office and work to the same deadlines. It simply wouldnt be acceptable for people not to receive their wages or tax returns not completed because Im working from home and have to mind the kids and didnt have time to process them. Id be told where to go very quick!!

    Most work from home people are under the same pressure as me. For parents childminding, working and homeschooling it is very very difficult. I dont think this point is appreciated and understood by alot of people.




  • Murple wrote: »
    I just block my number and email the parent to arrange a time so they know to answer.
    If it’s a student/parent not engaging, I would expect the call to come from the school number. I think an email in those circumstances is better as there is a record of contact being made.

    Personally I won't be driving over 45mins to and from school to make that call. A few emails to see, then a call to see and if still no reply then the principal can take over.




  • Deeec wrote: »
    While I agree with most of what you have said here I dont agree that all employers with work from home employees have lower expectations of what work can be achieved during these times. I work as an accountant and I am expected to do the exact same work as I would in the office and work to the same deadlines. It simply wouldnt be acceptable for people not to receive their wages or tax returns not completed because Im working from home and have to mind the kids and didnt have time to process them. Id be told where to go very quick!!

    Most work from home people are under the same pressure as me. For parents childminding, working and homeschooling it is very very difficult. I dont think this point is appreciated and understood by alot of people.

    My husbands firm is the same. Huge multi national. Their staff have been afforded flexibility but have been told their deliverables are still their priority.




  • Deeec wrote: »
    While I agree with most of what you have said here I dont agree that all employers with work from home employees have lower expectations of what work can be achieved during these times. I work as an accountant and I am expected to do the exact same work as I would in the office and work to the same deadlines. It simply wouldnt be acceptable for people not to receive their wages or tax returns not completed because Im working from home and have to mind the kids and didnt have time to process them. Id be told where to go very quick!!

    Most work from home people are under the same pressure as me. For parents childminding, working and homeschooling it is very very difficult. I dont think this point is appreciated and understood by alot of people.

    It’s not just parents that have to juggle a lot when working from home. The parents of children I work with probably look at me as a teacher with no children so no pressures at home. I’m a carer for an elderly parent with advanced dementia who needs full time care, as much care as a baby but the size of an adult. When schools are closed and I’m at home, I’m doing this all day long for most of the week. I can’t do live teaching with an adult moaning and crying in the background, to protect my pupils as much as to protect the dignity of my loved one.
    That often isn’t appreciated either as I often read comments like ‘and the teacher doesn’t even have children so has no responsibilities at home’. People will understand a child interrupting a Zoom call and often welcome the distraction. They are not so comfortable with the realities of life caring for an adult with significant care needs.




  • I'm not a teacher or parent myself. I know teachers in small 2 or 3 teacher schools where they were told to call the parents and be available to take calls or WhatsApp from parents if they are having any issues. I just thought that it was mad request.




  • I see both Murple and Deeec sides. On the one hand I know lots of employers of friends/family including my own who are flexible and generous in understanding the demands on people now. Deadlines are extended and expectations are relaxed. Also the mental health side of things affects productivity. CIPD/HR bodies are pumping this information out and urging employers & their HR staff to take this into account and recommending how to best support their staff.

    On the other hand, I also know of some employers and from reading on social media who are unreasonable or maybe in some instances unable to accommodate a drop in productivity. I would bet most employers are able to allow some level of flexibility though. After all, they would be going through similar effects themselves. I feel for those who have [email protected] employers who treat their staff as if they are less than human.




  • Stateofyou wrote: »
    I see both Murple and Deeec sides. On the one hand I know lots of employers of friends/family including my own who are flexible and generous in understanding the demands on people now. Deadlines are extended and expectations are relaxed. Also the mental health side of things affects productivity. CIPD/HR bodies are pumping this information out and urging employers & their HR staff to take this into account and recommending how to best support their staff.

    On the other hand, I also know of some employers and from reading on social media who are unreasonable or maybe in some instances unable to accommodate a drop in productivity. I would bet most employers are able to allow some level of flexibility though. After all, they would be going through similar effects themselves. I feel for those who have [email protected] employers who treat their staff as if they are less than human.

    At the end of the day as an employer you are offering a service to your customers. Someone is paying your company for the services you provide. If your company can’t provide those services or can’t do so in a timely manor your customer will take their business elsewhere. It’s easy as an employee to shrug your shoulders but if there is no one paying your company then you won’t have a job. These are the concerns management have, this is where their concerns are.
    Dh had one of his managers contact him yesterday asking could her team use parental leave/annual leave, could x have another week off. His question to her was, are you going to do their work? That’s the reality for a lot of industries. The work doesn’t go away. Someone else simply gets more to do.

    I think it’s really important to be flexible, to understand how difficult it can be for someone at home who now has kids to look after or indeed an elderly parent. But that flexibility works both ways and if you need time out during the day to take care of family that’s ok, but you then should be logging back in that night to finish your work.




  • Murple wrote: »
    It’s not just parents that have to juggle a lot when working from home. The parents of children I work with probably look at me as a teacher with no children so no pressures at home. I’m a carer for an elderly parent with advanced dementia who needs full time care, as much care as a baby but the size of an adult. When schools are closed and I’m at home, I’m doing this all day long for most of the week. I can’t do live teaching with an adult moaning and crying in the background, to protect my pupils as much as to protect the dignity of my loved one.
    That often isn’t appreciated either as I often read comments like ‘and the teacher doesn’t even have children so has no responsibilities at home’. People will understand a child interrupting a Zoom call and often welcome the distraction. They are not so comfortable with the realities of life caring for an adult with significant care needs.

    Murple I too have a relative with dementia and I understand the pressure you are under. It is very tough going - It is worse than looking after children IMO. I wouldnt expect teachers to work a full day online - thats completely unreasonable for lots of reasons. I just wanted to make the point that some of us WFH people are working to the exact same expectations as precovid. Also we dont know what is going on in the lives of other people and often make wrong assumptions.


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  • jrosen wrote: »
    At the end of the day as an employer you are offering a service to your customers. Someone is paying your company for the services you provide. If your company can’t provide those services or can’t do so in a timely manor your customer will take their business elsewhere. It’s easy as an employee to shrug your shoulders but if there is no one paying your company then you won’t have a job. These are the concerns management have, this is where their concerns are.
    Dh had one of his managers contact him yesterday asking could her team use parental leave/annual leave, could x have another week off. His question to her was, are you going to do their work? That’s the reality for a lot of industries. The work doesn’t go away. Someone else simply gets more to do.

    I think it’s really important to be flexible, to understand how difficult it can be for someone at home who now has kids to look after or indeed an elderly parent. But that flexibility works both ways and if you need time out during the day to take care of family that’s ok, but you then should be logging back in that night to finish your work.

    Sorry, but at the end of the day we're all in a global pandemic. Take their business where? To another company facing the exact same issue? You underestimate the relationships there that have been built over time and now enjoy trust and loyalty. Yes, many employers will work out a flexible solution such as logging in later as you pointed out. They have to be very careful they are still enforcing the Working Time Act though.




  • MY BAD wrote: »
    I'm not a teacher or parent myself. I know teachers in small 2 or 3 teacher schools where they were told to call the parents and be available to take calls or WhatsApp from parents if they are having any issues. I just thought that it was mad request.

    Totally mad, no need for parents to ever have teacher phone numbers. If they need to contact me they can email. If they need to voice chat, we can Zoom. WhatsApp weakens the teacher-parent boundaries imo and forces the teacher to be available 24/7.




  • Stateofyou wrote: »
    Sorry, but at the end of the day we're all in a global pandemic. Take their business where? To another company facing the exact same issue? You underestimate the relationships there that have been built over time and now enjoy trust and loyalty. Yes, many employers will work out a flexible solution such as logging in later as you pointed out. They have to be very careful they are still enforcing the Working Time Act though.

    Stateofyou yes some wont bother taking their business elsewhere depending on what you are involved in. Some services though cant just be halted or slowed down. Like what would happen if the Dept of social welfare staff couldnt work because of childcare and no social welfare payments were processed. What if the payroll department where you work had to reduce capacity due to childcare and couldnt process your wages. When you query this your told 'Mary in payroll cant manage to work because of childcare'. I dont think you would be impressed.

    The reality alot of business's and services cannot be flexible or their business comes to a complete halt.




  • MY BAD wrote: »
    I'm not a teacher or parent myself. I know teachers in small 2 or 3 teacher schools where they were told to call the parents and be available to take calls or WhatsApp from parents if they are having any issues. I just thought that it was mad request.

    What "issues" are they expected to deal with?




  • What "issues" are they expected to deal with?

    A friend's school, it was left to teachers to ring home if a student wasn't engaging with online work.

    One call from a yearhead, who has time off their timetable wud have made more sense

    The push for live lessons is coming from the Dept. It's not going to suit many as it ties students to specific times of availability and maybe siblings to the same time.

    Prerecorded or voice-over makes more sense but seems to offend the powers that be.




  • The push for live lessons is coming from the Dept. It's not going to suit many as it ties students to specific times of availability and maybe siblings to the same time.

    Prerecorded or voice-over makes more sense but seems to offend the powers that be.

    Dept making poor decisions again........quelle surprise!




  • A friend's school, it was left to teachers to ring home if a student wasn't engaging with online work.

    One call from a yearhead, who has time off their timetable wud have made more sense

    The push for live lessons is coming from the Dept. It's not going to suit many as it ties students to specific times of availability and maybe siblings to the same time.

    Prerecorded or voice-over makes more sense but seems to offend the powers that be.

    I actually support live lessons. I don’t think they are needed for every single class every single day but I do think they are an important part of learning




  • I downloaded the BUA NA CAINTE as recommended here to help with Irish. It was disappointing to see there's absolutely no English translations, even starting at the most beginning level.

    Can any teacher here recommend a good resource for Irish learning that would also have the English translations?




  • Stateofyou wrote: »
    I downloaded the BUA NA CAINTE as recommended here to help with Irish. It was disappointing to see there's absolutely no English translations, even starting at the most beginning level.

    Can any teacher here recommend a good resource for Irish learning that would also have the English translations?

    If you have an inspection you have to teach without a word of the "foreign" language used. Google translate is probably your best best to thrown text in to get it translated.


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  • jrosen wrote: »
    I actually support live lessons. I don’t think they are needed for every single class every single day but I do think they are an important part of learning

    I think like any classroom a blended approach is what is needed. Some live, some activities, some independent work and feedback

    With childcare my hope is to do a live check in homework correction/demo/explanation at the start of each class then students work on activities (I’ll still be there if they need me), then they upload their work at the end of class to show how they got on. It’s maths so I won’t be individually correcting every day but I’ll acknowledge receipt and run an eye over it so I know what to correct the next day same as in the classroom.

    I’m also going to record the demonstration section of the classes (with student voices and faces removed where needed to comply with GDPR) for students who can’t be there


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