Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Options
1…2728303233…1110

Comments

  • Options
    #872
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    bilston wrote: »
    POC will command respect, I seem to remember he was very much a details kind of guy as a player, therefore he could really help our lineout.

    He famously went as far as trying to learn Afrikaans to pick off some of the SA lineouts. Victor Matfield said he was his toughest opponent. If he's being brought in specifically with the lineout in mind, and that buys Easterby some extra time to work on the detail around rucks, then this could be a positive appointment. Lets hope it works out.


  • Options
    #873
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    aloooof wrote: »
    He famously went as far as trying to learn Afrikaans to pick off some of the SA lineouts. Victor Matfield said he was his toughest opponent. If he's being brought in specifically with the lineout in mind, and that buys Easterby some extra time to work on the detail around rucks, then this could be a positive appointment. Lets hope it works out.

    And Martin Johnson is one of the greatest players of all time and an English legend.

    Absolutely ****e coach though.


  • Options
    #874
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    And Martin Johnson is one of the greatest players of all time and an English legend.

    Absolutely ****e coach though.

    Yep. But Johnson was head-coach so it's not exactly comparing like with like. I'd imagine POC will have a very specific remit.


  • Options
    #875
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    aloooof wrote: »
    Yep. But Johnson was head-coach so it's not exactly comparing like with like. I'd imagine POC will have a very specific remit.

    Sure, its less of a risk.

    But its still a bit of an odd move and a reasonable risk. There is pretty much nothing to suggest he's a good coach.


  • Options
    #876
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Sure, its less of a risk.

    But its still a bit of an odd move and a reasonable risk. There is pretty much nothing to suggest he's a good coach.

    Nothing?
    I feel that’s a stretch now!

    When you consider his career:
    1. forensic analysis of lineout when playing.
    2. Great captain with excellent communication skills and I would say a born leader.

    The transition to coaching the lineout & maul is something where he can bring a wealth of experience & I believe he has the personal skills to impart that knowledge.

    He is one of a very select few former Irish players and captains that I gain more respect for the more I listen to him.

    Would recommend his book. Again one of the select few rugby autobiographies worth reading.

    Having said all of the above I would still prefer Plumtree back!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #877
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    Nothing?
    I feel that’s a stretch now!

    When you consider his career:
    1. forensic analysis of lineout when playing.
    2. Great captain with excellent communication skills and I would say a born leader.

    The transition to coaching the lineout & maul is something where he can bring a wealth of experience & I believe he has the personal skills to impart that knowledge.

    He is one of a very select few former Irish players and captains that I gain more respect for the more I listen to him.

    Would recommend his book. Again one of the select few rugby autobiographies worth reading.

    Having said all of the above I would still prefer Plumtree back!

    Yes, nothing. He had two spells as a coach and while there are many excuses/reasons they were both pretty underwhelming. Playing and coaching are different things.


  • Options
    #878
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    Nothing?
    I feel that’s a stretch now!

    When you consider his career:
    1. forensic analysis of lineout when playing.
    2. Great captain with excellent communication skills and I would say a born leader.

    The transition to coaching the lineout & maul is something where he can bring a wealth of experience & I believe he has the personal skills to impart that knowledge.

    He is one of a very select few former Irish players and captains that I gain more respect for the more I listen to him.

    Would recommend his book. Again one of the select few rugby autobiographies worth reading.

    Having said all of the above I would still prefer Plumtree back!
    Having great analysis of the lineout when playing and having been a good captain with those skills doesnt at all mean he will be a good coach.
    There is very little to suggest he will be a good coach. He's had several coaching jobs already. They havent went well even with the facts the under 20s pool of players wasnt the strongest that year and stade francais were a mess while he was there.


  • Options
    #879
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    And Martin Johnson is one of the greatest players of all time and an English legend.

    Absolutely ****e coach though.


    No, Johnson wasn't one of the greatest players of all time. He had good leadership skills and England had a fantastic set of forwards when Woodward was coach.



    Technically, POC was an outstanding lineout operator but he also has a very relaxed, likable personality where people seemingly will run through walls so as not to let him down. Johnson was too old school to succeed as a coach in the modern era.


  • Options
    #880
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Yes, nothing. He had two spells as a coach and while there are many excuses/reasons they were both pretty underwhelming. Playing and coaching are different things.

    I do realise playing and coaching are different things!

    Some players are de facto coaches when playing and I think PO’C was in that mould.

    If you discount him because of his previous coaching spells (brief), it’s missing two important points.
    1. They were his first steps in coaching
    2. Heyneke Meyer was DOR at SF. He was gone, along with all his SA staff, a few months after POC left after a “disagreement” with Meyer.
    Meyer is a very “bullish” character to put it mildly.

    These are not excuses. Just facts that should be considered.

    As I’ve said previously all things considered it’s a welcome addition to the coaching ticket.

    & let’s face it, the lineout and maul can’t get any worse! Can it?


  • Options
    #881
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Having great analysis of the lineout when playing and having been a good captain with those skills doesnt at all mean he will be a good coach.
    There is very little to suggest he will be a good coach. He's had several coaching jobs already. They havent went well even with the facts the under 20s pool of players wasnt the strongest that year and stade francais were a mess while he was there.


    Here is his reasons for leaving Stade after a year:


    "The work hours are absolutely massive when you are coaching. With a game on Saturday you are gone all day, with maybe six hours video work on the Sunday. You are in very early Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and finishing late because you have to be able to prepare a training session or video session that the players enjoy and engage in.
    "I’m sure over time you get better and quicker at it, but that took me a long time to do.
    "It was a very, very intense job. It’s enjoyable, but trying to find family time and being healthy is the challenge."


    https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/0129/1111804-oconnell-unsure-of-coaching-career-after-stade-exit/


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #882
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    Nothing?
    Having said all of the above I would still prefer Plumtree back!


    Lets not forget that POC was in the Ireland pack when Plumtree was coach. This is what he had to say about him.

    As to how important O’Connell is for Ireland, Plumtree is effusive in his praise, with the lock’s “fussy” preparation having been particularly impressive for the former Sharks head coach.
    “I’ve been around a long time myself and he’s right up there in terms of professional players that I’ve been involved with. I’ve coached in New Zealand, I’ve coached in South Africa at the top level, and that guy… I just can’t talk highly enough about him.
    “He is one guy that I’ve just been really impressed with as an individual player. I’ve got so much respect for him in that sense, what makes him such a good leader. He doesn’t do all the bantering and yelling off the pitch, he gets on with it. He’s a smart operator, he knows the right questions to ask, the right buttons to push.”


  • Options
    #883
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    jm08 wrote: »
    Lets not forget that POC was in the Ireland pack when Plumtree was coach. This is what he had to say about him.

    I certainly haven’t!
    In fact I still think that the 2014 set of forwards were the best drilled unit we have ever seen from Ireland.


  • Options
    #884
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,634 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    jm08 wrote: »
    No, Johnson wasn't one of the greatest players of all time. He had good leadership skills and England had a fantastic set of forwards when Woodward was coach.



    Technically, POC was an outstanding lineout operator but he also has a very relaxed, likable personality where people seemingly will run through walls so as not to let him down. Johnson was too old school to succeed as a coach in the modern era.

    Ah here. Johnson was an incredible player and one of the greatest leaders ever to put on a rugby jersey.


  • Options
    #885
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    Ah here. Johnson was an incredible player and one of the greatest leaders ever to put on a rugby jersey.

    Just to compare him to POC is actually a good study of how two great captains can differ vastly in what made them great.

    If you ever listen to the BBC when they are both on you are left in no doubt as to who is the more analytical, articulate and insightful.
    It’s not Johnson on any of those counts.


  • Options
    #886
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    Ah here. Johnson was an incredible player and one of the greatest leaders ever to put on a rugby jersey.


    English hype mainly. Donnacha O'Callaghan & POC ran rings around Johnson & Kay (Munster v Leicester) just before the 2003 World cup in Welford Rd. Munster thrashed Leicester 20-7. DOC (a kid then, was magnificent).


  • Options
    #887
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    jm08 wrote: »
    English hype mainly. Donnacha O'Callaghan & POC ran rings around Johnson & Kay (Munster v Leicester) just before the 2003 World cup in Welford Rd. Munster thrashed Leicester 20-7. DOC (a kid then, was magnificent).
    It was not at all english hype. This is an extremely petty post.
    He went to New Zealand and played on a national under 21 side with them.
    First player to captain Lions on two tours.
    Captained first side to retain european cup. First north hem to win a world cup.

    To say mainly hype is wrong and nothing backs that up


  • Options
    #888
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    English hype mainly. Donnacha O'Callaghan & POC ran rings around Johnson & Kay (Munster v Leicester) just before the 2003 World cup in Welford Rd. Munster thrashed Leicester 20-7. DOC (a kid then, was magnificent).

    Nonsense

    There’s a reason he was the first player to captain the Lions twice. And that was not “English hype”. People like McGeechan or Telfer couldn’t give a **** about English hype.


  • Options
    #889
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,634 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Ugh. Are we to be treated to this fanboy nonsense for the duration of POC's time in the job?

    Johnson is exactly what POC has to avoid becoming. His achievements as an on-field leader absolutely dwarf anything POC did, but he just couldn't translate it into coaching (although in fairness, he did win a 6N title).

    POC is a good appointment from a few angles. It's fresh blood in the setup which is badly needed IMO. Everyone in the country knows who he is so it's a good PR story and we needed an Irish coach in the setup for optics if nothing else. The lineout has been shyyyte and if POC knows about anything, it's lineouts.

    I'm optimistic it will work out, it would just be nice if he had more of an established track record because right now, it is a gamble.


  • Options
    #890
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,760 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    jm08 wrote: »
    English hype mainly. Donnacha O'Callaghan & POC ran rings around Johnson & Kay (Munster v Leicester) just before the 2003 World cup in Welford Rd. Munster thrashed Leicester 20-7. DOC (a kid then, was magnificent).

    Divock Origi ran rings around Barcelona and Leo Messi two years ago in the Champions League at Anfield. That doesn't mean Messi is overhyped.

    Don't take one match in isolation.

    For the record, I remember that match very well, Munster were outstanding, particularly POC and DOC


  • Options
    #891
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Martin Johnson was a starting Lion in NZ at 23 years old, the first of three consecutive tours where he was first choice lock. Anyone who doesn't recognise his excellence as a player is dim, bitter or both.

    The fact that his leadership skills actually overshadow his performances as a player is a testament to his captaincy more than a comment on his playing ability.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #892
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Martin Johnson never scared children in an Aldi ad.


  • Options
    #893
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    It was not at all english hype. This is an extremely petty post.
    He went to New Zealand and played on a national under 21 side with them.
    First player to captain Lions on two tours.
    Captained first side to retain european cup. First north hem to win a world cup.

    To say mainly hype is wrong and nothing backs that up


    1. Donnacha O'Callaghan won an U19 World Cup in 1997. I don't think Johnson won anything with the NZ U21s.

    2. His second tour to Australia was a disaster from every perspective including management and leadership of the squad. First time the Lions lost a series to Australia.
    3. Leicester professionalised in 1995 so had a bit of a head start on all the Celtic clubs. Munster knocked Leicester out in 2003 in Welford Road which ended Leicester's dominance of the Heineken Cup.
    4. Winning a world cup was a magnificient achievement, but they had a fine team with a lot of really world class players and some really good leaders and Wilkinson's boot.


  • Options
    #894
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Nonsense

    There’s a reason he was the first player to captain the Lions twice. And that was not “English hype”. People like McGeechan or Telfer couldn’t give a **** about English hype.


    Please stop citing captaining a Lions Tour twice as some sort of an achievement bearing in mind the tour to Australia was a disaster for the Lions.


  • Options
    #895
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    jm08 wrote: »
    Please stop citing captaining a Lions Tour twice as some sort of an achievement bearing in mind the tour to Australia was a disaster for the Lions.

    True. It pales into significance when measured against Donnacha's U19 reign of glory.


  • Options
    #896
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Quoting win stats for individual players is pretty desperate stuff.


  • Options
    #897
    The Inbetween is mine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭The Inbetween is mine


    Discussion of an ex English player on the Ireland thread is tedious


  • Options
    #898
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,634 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Criiiinge.

    Paul O'Connell would be absolutely mortified reading this. He always showed his opponents huge respect and he'd be embarrassed if he knew people were slating one of the greatest locks ever in some confused attempt to defend him.

    Johnson was a phenomenal player, better than O'Connell, and a phenomenal captain, better than O'Connell.

    The only relevance of any of this is that great players do not always make great coaches. No-one is having a go at POC.


  • Options
    #899
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    jm08 wrote: »
    1. Donnacha O'Callaghan won an U19 World Cup in 1997. I don't think Johnson won anything with the NZ U21s.

    2. His second tour to Australia was a disaster from every perspective including management and leadership of the squad. First time the Lions lost a series to Australia.
    3. Leicester professionalised in 1995 so had a bit of a head start on all the Celtic clubs. Munster knocked Leicester out in 2003 in Welford Road which ended Leicester's dominance of the Heineken Cup.
    4. Winning a world cup was a magnificient achievement, but they had a fine team with a lot of really world class players and some really good leaders and Wilkinson's boot.
    You are still not giving Johnson near as much credit as he deserves and are points 1 and 4 not double standards?
    Winning age grade world cups is great but its still age grade rugby.
    The point about Johnson playing NZ u21s is he wasnt in country that long, playing NZ 21s is serious level and as a non kiwi that says a lot...


  • Options
    #900
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    apologies for bringing up johnson in the first place, think the fairest description of him was a fantastic leader/captain but not as technically gifted as some others that followed him


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #901
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    Johnson was a phenomenal player, better than O'Connell, and a phenomenal captain, better than O'Connell.

    could argue he was a better captain, think itd be hard to argue he was a better player, o'connell's skill level was a fair bit higher overall


Advertisement