Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

jm08

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

True. It pales into significance when measured against Donnacha's U19 reign of glory.

I was responding to a comment that Martin Johnson played U21 rugby for New Zealand (which won nothing). I'm pointing out that DOC had a more successful underage career!
Just to be clear, I wouldn't have thought of DOC's underage achievements if playing for U21 NZ team had not been presented as some sort of a major achievement in MJ's career.

Former Former Former

sprucemoose wrote: »

could argue he was a better captain, think itd be hard to argue he was a better player, o'connell's skill level was a fair bit higher overall

That's the recency effect at work. And probably green-tinged glasses too.

jm08

Former Former Former wrote: »

That's the recency effect at work. And probably green-tinged glasses too.

Nonsense to the green tinged glasses. I'd rate Matfield and Brad Thorn (of similar vintage) way ahead of MJ for starters as locks.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Nonsense to the green tinged glasses. I'd rate Matfield and Brad Thorn (of similar vintage) way ahead of MJ for starters as locks.

Martin Johnson and Fabien Pelous were the two locks on the ERC dream they picked way back. That team covered the period when Munster were at their best and was selected by an independent panel.

sprucemoose

Former Former Former wrote: »

That's the recency effect at work. And probably green-tinged glasses too.

red-tinged

jm08 wrote: »

Nonsense to the green tinged glasses. I'd rate Matfield and Brad Thorn (of similar vintage) way ahead of MJ for starters as locks.

john eales, bakkies, neil francis(jk), etzebeth, pelous, sharpe, chris jack to name a few also. all were at least as good, if not better players than MJ but maybe not as fantastic leaders (eales excepted). I have a vague recollection of MJ admitting Ben Kay was a much better player than he was in their day in some interview a few years ago

sprucemoose

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Martin Johnson and Fabien Pelous were the two locks on the ERC dream they picked way back. That team covered the period when Munster were at their best and was selected by an independent panel.

and he absolutely deserved to be there due to his leadership qualities, skill-level wise he wasn't amazing. in fairness, foley was at 8 in that team, as great a player and leader he was, i wouldn't say he was the most technically gifted 8 compared to someone like heaslip (although he probably had more lineout ability than MJ)

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Martin Johnson and Fabien Pelous were the two locks on the ERC dream they picked way back. That team covered the period when Munster were at their best and was selected by an independent panel.

O'Connell went on the play for a further 5 years after that, to be fair, and not sure how much we can read into that anyways.

Personally don't think there's much between them, but each to their own.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Martin Johnson and Fabien Pelous were the two locks on the ERC dream they picked way back. That team covered the period when Munster were at their best and was selected by an independent panel.

Yep, Ian McGeechan, Lawrence Dallaglio, Stuart Barnes and Stephen Jones are all neutral! (Only two English players made that team and I remember Dallaglio arguing very strongly for Foley).

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Yep, Ian McGeechan, Lawrence Dallaglio, Stuart Barnes and Stephen Jones are all neutral! (Only two English players made that team and I remember Dallaglio arguing very strongly for Foley).

Donal Lenihan was on the panel. Would he know much about playing second row for Munster!

Ian McGeechan was the man who had picked OConnell for the Lions the previous summer. So probably knew a lot more about his qualities than any of us.

This level of nonsense is extremely nostalgic

irishbucsfan

aloooof wrote: »

O'Connell went on the play for a further 5 years after that, to be fair, and not sure how much we can read into that anyways.

Personally don't think there's much between them, but each to their own.

ODriscoll was also on the team, so being a current player didn’t really stop anyone from being selected.

Anyway, the idea Johnson wasn’t a quality player and it was all just English hype is extremely daft.

hahashake

jm08 wrote: »

I was responding to a comment that Martin Johnson played U21 rugby for New Zealand (which won nothing). I'm pointing out that DOC had a more successful underage career!
Just to be clear, I wouldn't have thought of DOC's underage achievements if playing for U21 NZ team had not been presented as some sort of a major achievement in MJ's career.

Not that it matters for this argument but they only played 3 games that year (in Australia), including against future all time great John Eales. They won all 3.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Donal Lenihan was on the panel. Would he know much about playing second row for Munster!

Ian McGeechan was the man who had picked OConnell for the Lions the previous summer. So probably knew a lot more about his qualities than any of us.

This level of nonsense is extremely nostalgic

It would have been pretty disasterous PR for Sky Sports if only one player from an English club (and an Irishman at that) made the team.


Dallaglio probably deserved a spot somewhere in the backrow, possibly instead of Rocky Elsom, though fantastic, only played one season.


PS - McGeechan picked Johnson as his Lions Captain as well by the way.

Former Former Former

jm08 wrote: »

Yep, Ian McGeechan, Lawrence Dallaglio, Stuart Barnes and Stephen Jones are all neutral! (Only two English players made that team and I remember Dallaglio arguing very strongly for Foley).

Genuine question - why do you think Scotsman Ian McGeechan would be biased towards an English player over an Irish?

Former Former Former

Jesus, why am I engaging.

Like, Johnson is universally regarded as an all-time great of the game and I had never heard anything to the contrary until last night when he happened to be mentioned in the same paragraph as a Munster ligind. Suddenly he's bang average and it was all hype.

Absolutely tragic.

razorblunt

Former Former Former wrote: »

Genuine question - why do you think Scotsman Ian McGeechan would be biased towards an English player over an Irish?

Because he, himself is English?

sydthebeat

what the actual FCUK has happened to the Irish Rugby Thread??

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

ODriscoll was also on the team, so being a current player didn’t really stop anyone from being selected.

I didn't quite mean it that way; just that to completely fairly compare them, POC had a further 5 season of performances to weigh into the equation following that. And as others have mentioned, I'm not sure you can read too much into it besides.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Anyway, the idea Johnson wasn’t a quality player and it was all just English hype is extremely daft.

Completely agree.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

what the actual FCUK has happened to the Irish Rugby Thread??

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the red carpet incident yet! :pac:

Dubinusa

I think this move has a bit of panic involved. But, if the line out and maul get fixed. We are a different team. Let's hope it works.

aloooof

jm08 wrote: »

Dallaglio probably deserved a spot somewhere in the backrow, possibly instead of Rocky Elsom, though fantastic, only played one season.

Complete aside, but it'd probably be Dusatoir for me.

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

what the actual FCUK has happened to the Irish Rugby Thread??

Long story short, IBF started posting regularly again.

The Inbetween is mine

In other news.... Deccie has given his seal of approval on Paulie's appointment...
thats all I need ....the grand slam awaits!

Louis Friend

A hilarious few minutes there for me seeing people question the stature of Martin Johnson as a player and a leader in the pantheon of rugby greats.

And to see people talking about Donncha O’Callaghan in the same breath

Paul O’Connell is an all-time great, as is Martin Johnson.

Questioning Martin Johnson’s stature as a player, I mean, come on!

OneLungDavy

It's such a ridiculous conversation discussing who was the best captain. How the hell are we suppose to know what goes on behind the scenes? All you can go on is how successful they were and their quality as a player, which is not a good measure. Or maybe some anecdotal evidence: "X said Y was the greatest leader he ever played with", it's impossible to judge from afar.

Rory Best will never be considered a better captain than POC or BOD because he was never the greatest player, was he a better leader? Who the **** knows!

mfceiling

Yeah can we all agree that Johnson was a phenomenally good player. I hated the man with a passion when he was England captain. Why? Because when he was in that team they always had a chance of winning because come hell or high water he would drag them to victory.

Wegians89

With the interpros over and 6 nations looming, what sort of squad to people think will be picked? Any surprises?

Akrasia

Wegians89 wrote: »

With the interpros over and 6 nations looming, what sort of squad to people think will be picked? Any surprises?

From a Munster POV, Beirne, Farrell, CJ, POM should be nailed down based on form Gavin Coombes deserves a bench spot

On promise, Murray is still top 9 but I think Craig Casey should be his main backup, Kevin O Byrne is the form hooker who should be in the squad as a minimum

Thrashssacre

I'm hoping for a matchday 23 of

Killer
O'Byrne
Furlong
Ryan
Henderson
Coombes
Pom
Stander
Murray
Sexton
Lowe
Ringrose
Henshaw
Larmour
Keenan

Healy
Cronin
Porter
Baird
Casey
Burns
Aki
Stockdale

Richie_Rich89

Wegians89 wrote: »

With the interpros over and 6 nations looming, what sort of squad to people think will be picked? Any surprises?

Think I'd go for something like:

LH: O'Sullivan, Kilcoyne, Dooley
HK: Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan
TH: Porter, O'Toole, Bealham, Moore
LK: Ryan, Roux, Thornbury, Henderson, Beirne
BS: Stander, Baird, Jos. Murphy
OS: Leavy, Connors, O'Mahony
No. 8: Doris, Coombes
SH: Murray, Cooney, Blade, Casey
OH: Sexton, Carty, Burns, H. Byrne
LW: Stockdale, Larmour
IC: Frawley, Aki, T. Daly
OC: Henshaw, T. Farrell
RW: Keenan, Earls
FB: J. O'Brien, S. Daly

Wegians89

1. Healy kilcoyne o Sullivan
2. Kelleher herring Heffernan
3. Furlong Porter Bealham
4. Beirne Dillane Baird
5. Ryan Henderson roux
6. Stander pom (Coombes if pom is off to France next year)
7. Two from connors/vdf/leavy
8. Doris

9. Murray Blade JGP
10. Sexton burns Carty
11. Stockdale Lowe
12. henshaw Bundee T Daly
13 ringrose Farrell
14. Larmour Conway/Earls
15. Keenan

Guys like should be apprentices:
Boyle
Coombes
Casey
Healy
H Byrne
Job