Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ersatz

There was an interview last year with POC about his experience in Stade (maybe the one posted above) where he described his problem as less to do with the culture of Stade (though that was part of it) and more to do with the nuts and bolts of coaching itself, the relentless pressure, the mountains of detail, opposition review, etc. It's a world away from playing and motivating team mates, and it's less to do with day to day leadership and a lot more to do with strategy and so on. Reading between the lines it just didn't seem to sit with his temperament and the way his brain works. I hope it's not just the IRFU deciding to give it a lash for want of alternatives because Ireland will get eaten up and spat out if the set piece and forward play isn't buttoned up in the next couple of years.

Paul Smeenus

ersatz wrote: »

There was an interview last year with POC about his experience in Stade (maybe the one posted above) where he described his problem as less to do with the culture of Stade (though that was part of it) and more to do with the nuts and bolts of coaching itself, the relentless pressure, the mountains of detail, opposition review, etc. It's a world away from playing and motivating team mates, and it's less to do with day to day leadership and a lot more to do with strategy and so on. Reading between the lines it just didn't seem to sit with his temperament and the way his brain works. I hope it's not just the IRFU deciding to give it a lash for want of alternatives because Ireland will get eaten up and spat out if the set piece and forward play isn't buttoned up in the next couple of years.

I shared it above. The 42.ie, end of October.


https://www.the42.ie/paul-oconnell-c...46949-Oct2020/

Former Former Former

That's a very odd appointment.

Big demotion for Easterby too.

Sangre

Lucas44 wrote: »

While stade was a mess poc didnt hang is head in glory, didn’t he come out saying there was far more work involved than he thought & that he doesn’t have an appetite for coaching ??

He did but in fairness the schedule of an Irish coach and a Top14 coach (given the number of games) will be very different. He did also mention that despite best efforts the language barrier was an issue as well in terms of delivering quick on the spot learnings.

I am also in the 'wait and see' camp as to whether this pans out.

Vinnie222

ersatz wrote: »

There was an interview last year with POC about his experience in Stade (maybe the one posted above) where he described his problem as less to do with the culture of Stade (though that was part of it) and more to do with the nuts and bolts of coaching itself, the relentless pressure, the mountains of detail, opposition review, etc. It's a world away from playing and motivating team mates, and it's less to do with day to day leadership and a lot more to do with strategy and so on. Reading between the lines it just didn't seem to sit with his temperament and the way his brain works. I hope it's not just the IRFU deciding to give it a lash for want of alternatives because Ireland will get eaten up and spat out if the set piece and forward play isn't buttoned up in the next couple of years.

He was on about Club rugby. Big reduction in work load at international level

The Lost Sheep

Clegg wrote: »

^

This doesn't exactly inspire confidence. POC doesn't have a great track record as a coach.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1347128644016218113?s=09

He has very little coaching experience but Stade was a basket case and how much was he to blame for that? And the irish 20s squad he was involved in was simply a very weak group.

bayern wrote: »

he is a hugely unproven forwards coach.

Yes but lineout has been a major issue with Ireland for a while so if he shores that up then great. He will have come relatively cheap and considering the climate we're in that will have been a big part in picking him

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

No. He did not do a great deal with the U20s either. And at the end of last October, was saying he wasn't fussed on coaching.

https://www.the42.ie/paul-oconnell-coaching-ireland-5246949-Oct2020/

I am not convinced at all.

20s that year were very poor. wouldnt put too much on O Connell for that

The Parish King wrote: »

What group of u20s was POC involved in coaching?

I have a vague recollection that the performances were mixed, but it could help with the transition of some of these players in to the senior set-up with a level of familiarity between the coach and players?

the 98s so Doris, Aungier, Sean Masterson, Jack O Sullivan

ersatz wrote: »

There was an interview last year with POC about his experience in Stade (maybe the one posted above) where he described his problem as less to do with the culture of Stade (though that was part of it) and more to do with the nuts and bolts of coaching itself, the relentless pressure, the mountains of detail, opposition review, etc. It's a world away from playing and motivating team mates, and it's less to do with day to day leadership and a lot more to do with strategy and so on. Reading between the lines it just didn't seem to sit with his temperament and the way his brain works. I hope it's not just the IRFU deciding to give it a lash for want of alternatives because Ireland will get eaten up and spat out if the set piece and forward play isn't buttoned up in the next couple of years.

Coaching with a national team doesnt have near as much of those elements compared to a club/provincial side. And he will be living at home which will make things far easier.

Dubinusa

I don't think that this is a good appointment. Easterly must be on the way out. Time will tell.

Richie_Rich89

I'm always baffled by people conflating playing ability with coaching ability. Leinster and Munster were very poor under Cullen and Foley, respectively.

That said, a very narrow, technical focus could allow him to do well. Steve Borthwick worked well as lineout coach for Japan under Eddie Jones. Results for O'Connell so far as a coach have been disappointing but I've been reasonably impressed with soundbites from him about how he views coaching. He knows what he has to get better at.

See how it goes, I suppose.

ersatz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Coaching with a national team doesnt have near as much of those elements compared to a club/provincial side. And he will be living at home which will make things far easier.

Except that when it does for 4 or 5 months a year the stakes are consistently higher, the pressure greater and the room for error much less. POC seemed to struggle with the dynamics of coaching in the club game so I don't see how it will get easier because the schedule is different in the international set up. I'd love to see him succeed but I'd also love to see him get some provincial experience in Ireland before being dropped into the national set up. The next year is make or break for the Irish team, we are looking at a good few younger players coming in with a lot of changes in the forwards due and overdue. Same goes for the backs and the leadership of the team. I'm just not convinced that more very inexperienced coaches will help.

sydthebeat

Former Former Former wrote: »

That's a very odd appointment.

Big demotion for Easterby too.

it was mooted as far back as Nov 2019 that he was switching from forwards to defence

and the way we've played all year its apparent that theres been no one at the helm in certain aspects of forward play

Lucas44

Seen a lot of people saying that the u20 group that Poc worked with was poor. Ah yes just the 15/20 forwards from that group have gone on to represent their provinces at senior level with 3 of them being either Ireland internationals or been in camp.. bearing in mind these players are now 22, doesn’t seem like a lack of talent to me.. the line out that year was poor I remember correctly.... interesting stat all 3 hookers and 4/5 second rows are now pros

shootermacg

The lineout is a steaming pile of ****. If it's still a steaming pile of ****, then it will not be any different to what it is now. Lineout management is something that can be learned and PoC was one of the best.

Personally, I think he'll do a great job. He's perfectly suited to an international post. He gets to sped a lot of time in analysis during the non peak times and only a few games in between.

The club scene is a totally different story.

arsebiscuits1

Lucas44 wrote: »

Seen a lot of people saying that the u20 group that Poc worked with was poor. Ah yes just the 15/20 forwards from that group have gone on to represent their provinces at senior level with 3 of them being either Ireland internationals or been in camp.. bearing in mind these players are now 22, doesn’t seem like a lack of talent to me.. the line out that year was poor I remember correctly.... interesting stat all 3 hookers and 4/5 second rows are now pros

The players have done ok for themselves all things considered.

But I think it's fair to say it was not a good under 20s year and there were numerous injury issues that affected them too.

Lucas44

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

The players have done ok for themselves all things considered.

But I think it's fair to say it was not a good under 20s year and there were numerous injury issues that affected them too.

Done well for themselves? Haha take down the POC posters in your room and clear your eyes. As for the injuries, see below the number of pro contracted (forwards) that were in the match day squad for every game that year

France 12,
Italy 10,
Wales 11,
Scotland 9,
England 9,
France 10,
SA 9,
Georgia 10,
Scotland 8,
Japan 9,

Opinions differ but the facts stay the same, since POC was relieved of his duties as forwards coach the Irish u20s have won 1 grand slam and were undefeated in the other before covid. Both campaigns were built off a good set piece/pack


No shade at POC hope he can give some guidance, however he is severely under qualified for the duty as forwards coach. He should be used in a similar fashion as England use Wilkinson, more as a consultant than a coach for sessions/advice every now and again

sprucemoose

Vinnie222 wrote: »

He was on about Club rugby. Big reduction in work load at international level

i'd say joe schmidt would disagree with that

jm08

sprucemoose wrote: »

i'd say joe schmidt would disagree with that

But that was because Joe Schmidt was/is a bit of a control freak and tried to do everything himself.

jm08

Lucas44 wrote: »

Done well for themselves? Haha take down the POC posters in your room and clear your eyes. As for the injuries, see below the number of pro contracted (forwards) that were in the match day squad for every game that year

France 12,
Italy 10,
Wales 11,
Scotland 9,
England 9,
France 10,
SA 9,
Georgia 10,
Scotland 8,
Japan 9,

Opinions differ but the facts stay the same, since POC was relieved of his duties as forwards coach the Irish u20s have won 1 grand slam and were undefeated in the other before covid. Both campaigns were built off a good set piece/pack

No shade at POC hope he can give some guidance, however he is severely under qualified for the duty as forwards coach. He should be used in a similar fashion as England use Wilkinson, more as a consultant than a coach for sessions/advice every now and again

POC went to Stade Francais after one season with the U20s. That looks to me like he left the U20s, rather than he was relieved of his duties. Seriously, do you think if he was regarded as a failure with the U20s that the IRFU would take him on with the Senior Team?


From what I recall at the time, SF was a mess. Both Prendergast and POC left. Prendergast is doing fine with Racing. POC came back to Ireland because his family were not happy in France.

UAEguy2020

Lucas44 wrote: »

Seen a lot of people saying that the u20 group that Poc worked with was poor. Ah yes just the 15/20 forwards from that group have gone on to represent their provinces at senior level with 3 of them being either Ireland internationals or been in camp.. bearing in mind these players are now 22, doesn’t seem like a lack of talent to me.. the line out that year was poor I remember correctly.... interesting stat all 3 hookers and 4/5 second rows are now pros

There was talent in a lot of areas but it was also severely lacking in others.

UAEguy2020

Lucas44 wrote: »

Done well for themselves? Haha take down the POC posters in your room and clear your eyes. As for the injuries, see below the number of pro contracted (forwards) that were in the match day squad for every game that year

France 12,
Italy 10,
Wales 11,
Scotland 9,
England 9,
France 10,
SA 9,
Georgia 10,
Scotland 8,
Japan 9,

Opinions differ but the facts stay the same, since POC was relieved of his duties as forwards coach the Irish u20s have won 1 grand slam and were undefeated in the other before covid. Both campaigns were built off a good set piece/pack


No shade at POC hope he can give some guidance, however he is severely under qualified for the duty as forwards coach. He should be used in a similar fashion as England use Wilkinson, more as a consultant than a coach for sessions/advice every now and again

The u20 groups in 2019 and 2020 were much stronger across the board than 2018. As it’s been said the group 2018 was strong individually atleast in the pack but come the World Cup there was a huge number of injuries and a lot of the issues weren’t down to the pack, it was down to that clown Tierney as the defense coach and then relieving him of his duties before the JWC leaving the head coaches with very little experience. McNamara was a victim as much as POC and you can see how things have gone better with new experiences coaches have joined him.

salmocab

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I'm always baffled by people conflating playing ability with coaching ability. Leinster and Munster were very poor under Cullen and Foley, respectively.

That said, a very narrow, technical focus could allow him to do well. Steve Borthwick worked well as lineout coach for Japan under Eddie Jones. Results for O'Connell so far as a coach have been disappointing but I've been reasonably impressed with soundbites from him about how he views coaching. He knows what he has to get better at.

See how it goes, I suppose.

Will you ever tell us what Cullen did to you?

Larbre34

About reserving judgement. Thats fine for the playing pitch, but I'm gonna go ahead and say Nucifora has effed up by making a supplementary appointment to the staff at a cost of, I would guess, 100-150k, without any commensurate firings, at a time where player contracts, centrally and in the 4 Provinces, are going to be cut back savagely.

David, the supporters are watching you.

arsebiscuits1

Lucas44 wrote: »

Done well for themselves? Haha take down the POC posters in your room and clear your eyes. As for the injuries, see below the number of pro contracted (forwards) that were in the match day squad for every game that year

France 12,
Italy 10,
Wales 11,
Scotland 9,
England 9,
France 10,
SA 9,
Georgia 10,
Scotland 8,
Japan 9,

Opinions differ but the facts stay the same, since POC was relieved of his duties as forwards coach the Irish u20s have won 1 grand slam and were undefeated in the other before covid. Both campaigns were built off a good set piece/pack


No shade at POC hope he can give some guidance, however he is severely under qualified for the duty as forwards coach. He should be used in a similar fashion as England use Wilkinson, more as a consultant than a coach for sessions/advice every now and again

What a strangely incendiary and antagonistic comment.

Your pro contracted players stat is a bit wide of the mark too. How many of them were under 19 that year? How many can be considered world beating internationals? How many of them were actually forwards under O'Connells remit?

EDIT: Actually. Don't reply. I don't care. Preempting the doom and gloom before anything has happened is normally why I avoid this thread. And I think that's set to continue

Lucas44

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The u20 groups in 2019 and 2020 were much stronger across the board than 2018. As it’s been said the group 2018 was strong individually atleast in the pack but come the World Cup there was a huge number of injuries and a lot of the issues weren’t down to the pack, it was down to that clown Tierney as the defense coach and then relieving him of his duties before the JWC leaving the head coaches with very little experience. McNamara was a victim as much as POC and you can see how things have gone better with new experiences coaches have joined him.

Updates are the below pro players for both forwards & backs for every game in under POC’s tenure. Throw the injury excuse out the window, there was at least 1 pro in every position that year .. with a season low of 16/23 players that have gone pro.. quite a remarkable number; as you mentioned Tierney was relieved before the Jwc but yet Ireland had their worst historic performance at the Jwc with 3 future internationals (at least) in the pack that POC was overseeing but was unable to get the best out of them.

France 12, 9 - 21/23
Italy 10, 10 - 20/23
Wales 11, 10 - 21/23
Scotland 9, 9 - 18/23
England 9, 10 - 19/23
France 10, 7 - 17/23
SA 9, 9 - 18/23
Georgia 10, 9 - 19/23
Scotland 8, 8 - 16/23
Japan 9, 9 - 18/23

UAEguy2020

Lucas44 wrote: »

Updates are the below pro players for both forwards & backs for every game in under POC’s tenure. Throw the injury excuse out the window, there was at least 1 pro in every position that year .. with a season low of 16/23 players that have gone pro.. quite a remarkable number; as you mentioned Tierney was relieved before the Jwc but yet Ireland had their worst historic performance at the Jwc with 3 future internationals (at least) in the pack that POC was overseeing but was unable to get the best out of them.

France 12, 9 - 21/23
Italy 10, 10 - 20/23
Wales 11, 10 - 21/23
Scotland 9, 9 - 18/23
England 9, 10 - 19/23
France 10, 7 - 17/23
SA 9, 9 - 18/23
Georgia 10, 9 - 19/23
Scotland 8, 8 - 16/23
Japan 9, 9 - 18/23

I watched that u20 team, the pack performance wasn’t the reason for the teams failure. It was the defense mostly hence why Tierney was fired before the tournament and we went into the tournament without a defense coach. The pack performed quite well which hardly means POC was responsible for the teams failure.

Lucas44

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

What a strangely incendiary and antagonistic comment.

Your pro contracted players stat is a bit wide of the mark too. How many of them were under 19 that year? How many can be considered world beating internationals? How many of them were actually forwards under O'Connells remit?

EDIT: Actually. Don't reply. I don't care. Preempting the doom and gloom before anything has happened is normally why I avoid this thread. And I think that's set to continue

It’s completely accurate actually look at the squads and you’ll see for yourself. In fact it may actually be a little on the conservative side. Under Oconnell’s remit? That would be all of them.

As for u19, 2 forwards (Charlie Ryan, Dylan Tierney).

Internationals/future- its fair to say the following will/may earn caps in there careers.
Ronan kelleher
Dan sheehan
Diarmuid Barron (maybe)
Tom otoole
Jack aungier
Sean Masterson (maybe)
Caelan Doris
Jack O’Sullivan


This is by no means a personal attack on POC, it is just IMO that by failing upwards or rewarding positions based off playing careers will not win us or get us by a QF in a World Cup (that is 2 years away). But hopefully I’m wrong

ClanofLams

Hard to justify appointment. Ireland have rookie head coach and now forwards coach with very limited experience where, for whatever reason, his time in France didn’t work out.

One of the finest players Ireland ever had so hope it works out.

The Lost Sheep

ersatz wrote: »

Except that when it does for 4 or 5 months a year the stakes are consistently higher, the pressure greater and the room for error much less. POC seemed to struggle with the dynamics of coaching in the club game so I don't see how it will get easier because the schedule is different in the international set up. I'd love to see him succeed but I'd also love to see him get some provincial experience in Ireland before being dropped into the national set up. The next year is make or break for the Irish team, we are looking at a good few younger players coming in with a lot of changes in the forwards due and overdue. Same goes for the backs and the leadership of the team. I'm just not convinced that more very inexperienced coaches will help.

Its entirely different landscape working at international level to provincial level. He may have not liked the dynamic at club level but you dont have games 25 weekends of the year at international level so it may well suit him far more. Next year will be very important for Ireland considering how mixed its been with Farrell so far but make or break im not sure. If O Connell can sort out or help our set piece then it will go long way to help a lot of rest of our game.

molloyjh

Larbre34 wrote: »

About reserving judgement. Thats fine for the playing pitch, but I'm gonna go ahead and say Nucifora has effed up by making a supplementary appointment to the staff at a cost of, I would guess, 100-150k, without any commensurate firings, at a time where player contracts, centrally and in the 4 Provinces, are going to be cut back savagely.

David, the supporters are watching you.

Huh? We're what now?

You realise you cant just fire someone, right? That to terminate Easterbys contract they would need to reach an agreement with him to buy it out? Which would cost more money...

Larbre34

molloyjh wrote: »

Huh? We're what now?

You realise you cant just fire someone, right? That to terminate Easterbys contract they would need to reach an agreement with him to buy it out? Which would cost more money...

How many times have you seen compensated departures, it happens all the time. They save in the long term, and hopefully the replacement improves the win rate and they make gains in prize money.

Whatever solution they might have used, bringing on O'Connell AND keeping Easterby to work on Defence, for a total of 6 coaches, especially when Andy Farrell is a defensive specialist himself, has zero credibility in my view.

awec

After some Googling, it appears Easterby had a contract until June 2020.

Given he's still around, I would assume he was renewed. Whoever signed off on that, now that he's been demoted, should have to answer some very hard questions.