Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Adamocovic · 16-12-2020 9:58pm

GarIT wrote: »

Helmut Marko hinting at Perez. He said that he likes Tsunoda so much he wanted to put him in the Red Bull but he thinks they can win the teams championship if they have two drivers who can challenge at the front next season.

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

Frank Bullitt · 16-12-2020 11:07pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

If we know anything about RB, it's this.

Infoanon · 16-12-2020 11:19pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

Why would be ruthless for Albon not to have a seat at Red Bull ? , the gap to Max is too big effectively limiting the race options available which greatly disadvantages them against Mercedes .

If Red Bull are serious about the championship next season then they need a stronger driver in the second car.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-12-2020 11:32pm

Infoanon wrote: »

Why would be ruthless for Albon not to have a seat at Red Bull ? , the gap to Max is too big effectively limiting the race options available which greatly disadvantages them against Mercedes .

If Red Bull are serious about the championship next season then they need a stronger driver in the second car.

I suspect Perez would be slightly more competitive with Max, but not near Max’s level. I think there’s good reason to suspect RB is so set up for Max that it’s a toxic environment for the second driver. I think Perez will handle it better than a young driver.

I think if RB want to be competitive for a championship, they need a strong driver, as you said, but they also need to treat both drivers well.

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 10:58am

Adamocovic wrote: »

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

Test driver.

He's not shown he can keep a top 2 car in the top 4. So he's useless.

Charlie-Bravo · 17-12-2020 12:20pm

Wow, that's harsh. So Bottas is useful, as he can (often) keep a top 1 car in the top 2!

touch in cheek comment before anyone gets on my case!!

GarIT · 17-12-2020 12:28pm

astrofluff wrote: »

Wow, that's harsh. So Bottas is useful, as he can (often) keep a top 1 car in the top 2! touch in cheek comment before anyone gets on my case!!

Both teams have said as much. The only role of the second driver is to make sure Max can't undercut Lewis and vice versa.

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 12:35pm

astrofluff wrote: »

Wow, that's harsh. So Bottas is useful, as he can (often) keep a top 1 car in the top 2! touch in cheek comment before anyone gets on my case!!

Lol.
Bottas is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
If RB have two cars challenging for a win, then merc may have to do something about it but for now he's doing enough.

Charlie-Bravo · 17-12-2020 12:39pm

So what you are saying is....if RB sign Perez, then Merc need Russell next year to stop RB from causing them a headache. Got'ya loud and clear ;p

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 12:43pm

I know you're taking the pee, but it could be for 2022. If RB have both cars challenging each race then it would force merc to have a decent driver in the second car or RB could win the constructors.

weisses · 17-12-2020 1:39pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suspect Perez would be slightly more competitive with Max, but not near Max’s level. I think there’s good reason to suspect RB is so set up for Max that it’s a toxic environment for the second driver.

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

GarIT · 17-12-2020 1:45pm

weisses wrote: »

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

Ricciardo has said he left because of how they favoured Max and he knew he couldn't get anywhere with the team despite being talented.

artanevilla · 17-12-2020 1:46pm

weisses wrote: »

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

Mercedes...

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 1:52pm

weisses wrote: »

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

Yeah RB has had a pretty clear driver 1-2 policy (see Vettel vs Webber in Turkey and max Vs Ric in Baku). Now they have Max who is the golden boy and any of the three drivers they put because him since Ric, have looked good in the TR/AT and have crumbled when promoted.

Gasley, for example, looked good at AT, looked terrible at RB and moved back to AT and looked good again. It’s very rare to get a good back to back experiment like that and it suggests that RB is not good at introducing drivers to the team since Max’s arrival.

Look at the relationship between Norris and Sainz and compare that to the openly hostile attitude Max has to his teammates. The messaging is pretty clear and RB is fine with it “Max is the no.1 around here”.

GarIT · 17-12-2020 1:57pm

There's also Sainz being refused the Red Bull seat he was next in like for and dropped because Max said so.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 2:06pm

GarIT wrote: »

There's also Sainz being refused the Red Bull seat he was next in like for and dropped because Max said so.

The idea that they chucked Sainz and are struggling to find a good driver, is a sign that they are caught between two minds.

weisses · 17-12-2020 2:15pm

GarIT wrote: »

Ricciardo has said he left because of how they favoured Max and he knew he couldn't get anywhere with the team despite being talented.

Not true

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145388/ricciardo-engineer-loss-played-part-in-red-bull-exit

"There were a lot of reasons, but losing Simon - I knew he wasn't going to engineer this year, if I stayed at Red Bull, and I thought I had a good relationship with him, and there were some unknowns," Ricciardo admitted during this year's Hungarian Grand Prix.

"I was certainly comfortable with him. If I knew he stayed, I don't know if that would've been the deciding factor, but it was another [thing] - obviously when you've got the Honda concern and a few others, I guess that was another little thing.

"As I said, there were lots of these little things which probably added up - I don't want to say 'concerns' but unknowns. 'Concerns' is probably a bit disrespectful."

Ricciardo reiterated that there was not "one bullet" that made him leave Red Bull, and said the team's alleged favouritism towards team-mate Max Verstappen was not a major aspect, as "it was talked about more than [what] I saw".

weisses · 17-12-2020 2:20pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah RB has had a pretty clear driver 1-2 policy (see Vettel vs Webber in Turkey and max Vs Ric in Baku). Now they have Max who is the golden boy and any of the three drivers they put because him since Ric, have looked good in the TR/AT and have crumbled when promoted.

Gasley, for example, looked good at AT, looked terrible at RB and moved back to AT and looked good again. It’s very rare to get a good back to back experiment like that and it suggests that RB is not good at introducing drivers to the team since Max’s arrival.

Look at the relationship between Norris and Sainz and compare that to the openly hostile attitude Max has to his teammates. The messaging is pretty clear and RB is fine with it “Max is the no.1 around here”.

Max wasnt hostile to Gasly ... They were friends .. He wasn't hostile to Ricciardo.

of course Max is the No 1 driver ... I was wondering if you had any insight in the second driver spot being toxic ..... But it turned out its just your own opinion

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 2:49pm

weisses wrote: »

Max wasnt hostile to Gasly ... They were friends .. He wasn't hostile to Ricciardo.

of course Max is the No 1 driver ... I was wondering if you had any insight in the second driver spot being toxic ..... But it turned out its just your own opinion

Yeah. Just opinion based on the evidence of our eyes. The evidence of Gasley being good at TR, crap at RB and good again at AT, is surely worth a mention.

weisses · 17-12-2020 3:36pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. Just opinion based on the evidence of our eyes. The evidence of Gasley being good at TR, crap at RB and good again at AT, is surely worth a mention.

It is ? What was so toxic at red bull that lead to the failure of Gasly ?

GarIT · 17-12-2020 3:37pm

weisses wrote: »

It is ? What was so toxic at red bull that lead to the failure of Gasly ?

Max and Jos

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 3:43pm

weisses wrote: »

It is ? What was so toxic at red bull that lead to the failure of Gasly ?

That would be my contention, yes.

I don’t know why they fail to nurture the three young drivers they’ve brought through to partner max since he arrived, I simply observed that it happened.

weisses · 17-12-2020 4:01pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That would be my contention, yes.

I don’t know why they fail to nurture the three young drivers they’ve brought through to partner max since he arrived, I simply observed that it happened.

So you have no idea why some young drivers fail at red bull ...But somehow believe its a toxic environment for a second driver.

Is there any information out there that collaborates your view that there is a toxic environment at red bull ? ...

GarIT · 17-12-2020 4:10pm

weisses wrote: »

So you have no idea why some young drivers fail at red bull ...But somehow believe its a toxic environment for a second driver.

Is there any information out there that collaborates your view that there is a toxic environment at red bull ? ...

Two promising young drivers have struggled there. That's the relevant information. If it wasn't toxic Gasly would be fighting for wins.

weisses · 17-12-2020 4:33pm

GarIT wrote: »

Two promising young drivers have struggled there. That's the relevant information. If it wasn't toxic Gasly would be fighting for wins.

GAsly could not deal with the pressure driving for a top team

The RB16 is more difficult to drive then an AT ... Both guys are just not top tier material

A wise man once said
No point putting carrots in an apple pie and expecting a good result - just ruining good carrots really.

Jordan 199 · 17-12-2020 4:53pm

I see that Grosjean and Magnussen got steering wheels as parting presents from Haas. Nice.

GarIT · 17-12-2020 4:56pm

weisses wrote: »

GAsly could not deal with the pressure driving for a top team

The RB16 is more difficult to drive then an AT ... Both guys are just not top tier material

A wise man once said
No point putting carrots in an apple pie and expecting a good result - just ruining good carrots really.

If you're agreeing there was too much pressure for him then we are in agreement that it's toxic.

Mitch Connor · 17-12-2020 4:59pm

GarIT wrote: »

If you're agreeing there was too much pressure for him then we are in agreement that it's toxic.

Doesn't have to mean toxic.

The pressure to be 4th every weekend and competing for podiums is different to mid-table. I'm not saying that pressure was the reason (I have no idea) but not being able to handle that pressure doesn't mean the environment was toxic. Just that it has a competitive edge that is higher than elsewhere.

GarIT · 17-12-2020 5:01pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Doesn't have to mean toxic.

The pressure to be 4th every weekend and competing for podiums is different to mid-table. I'm not saying that pressure was the reason (I have no idea) but not being able to handle that pressure doesn't mean the environment was toxic. Just that it has a competitive edge that is higher than elsewhere.

I think it was toxic, because from the second or 3rd race Red Bull were talking **** about him not meeting their standards. They have taken a better approach with Albon.

quokula · 17-12-2020 5:05pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Doesn't have to mean toxic.

The pressure to be 4th every weekend and competing for podiums is different to mid-table. I'm not saying that pressure was the reason (I have no idea) but not being able to handle that pressure doesn't mean the environment was toxic. Just that it has a competitive edge that is higher than elsewhere.

Yeah there's some massive leaps being made to justify some opinions going on here. Red Bull have given these guys every opportunity, and historically have been one of the few top teams to never ever favour one driver over another, but the drivers they've put next to Max have simply not been good enough to keep up with him.

My impression is that Max is just a once in a generation talent, and the Red Bull is probably not as good a car as he's made it look, leaving other drivers looking bad when they've struggled to keep up.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 5:16pm

weisses wrote: »

GAsly could not deal with the pressure driving for a top team

The RB16 is more difficult to drive then an AT ... Both guys are just not top tier material

A wise man once said
No point putting carrots in an apple pie and expecting a good result - just ruining good carrots really.

You call it being unable to handle the pressure of a top team, I call it red bull being unable to nurture young talent.

It’s in red bull’s interest to get the most out of their young drivers and they fail to do it. Gasley being better either side of his RB stint is a demonstration of that.

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 5:21pm

They did fairly well with Vettel, Ricciardo, Max (and to a lesser extent Sainz and Gasly).
It's not RB, it's the lack of talent to match Max.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 5:23pm

quokula wrote: »

Yeah there's some massive leaps being made to justify some opinions going on here. Red Bull have given these guys every opportunity, and historically have been one of the few top teams to never ever favour one driver over another, but the drivers they've put next to Max have simply not been good enough to keep up with him.

My impression is that Max is just a once in a generation talent, and the Red Bull is probably not as good a car as he's made it look, leaving other drivers looking bad when they've struggled to keep up.

The bit in bold just isn’t true. When they pick a favourite they back them no matter what. Between “multi 21” and the turkey crash in which they backed their no.1 and the Baku crash where they also showed who is their no.1 and who isn’t.

I think you’re right about max making the car look better than it is and that explains some of the gap. I feel red bull is in denial about how far their car is from the Mercedes.

quokula · 17-12-2020 6:00pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The bit in bold just isn’t true. When they pick a favourite they back them no matter what. Between “multi 21” and the turkey crash in which they backed their no.1 and the Baku crash where they also showed who is their no.1 and who isn’t.

I think you’re right about max making the car look better than it is and that explains some of the gap. I feel red bull is in denial about how far their car is from the Mercedes.

You're aware multi 21 was the team issuing an order in favour of Mark Webber and against Sebastian Vettel right? It's a perfect example of their even handedness even when one driver was a three time world champion and likely to be fighting for a fourth, they still asked him to stay behind his slower teammate for the sake of bringing the cars home safely. The fact Vettel was too fast and made the overtake anyway is not on the team.

Your other examples are instances where team-mates crashed into eachother (a clear example of them being allowed to race), and the only thing they're guilty of there is not criticising their driver in public enough for your satisfaction.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 6:19pm

quokula wrote: »

You're aware multi 21 was the team issuing an order in favour of Mark Webber and against Sebastian Vettel right? It's a perfect example of their even handedness even when one driver was a three time world champion and likely to be fighting for a fourth, they still asked him to stay behind his slower teammate for the sake of bringing the cars home safely. The fact Vettel was too fast and made the overtake anyway is not on the team.

Your other examples are instances where team-mates crashed into eachother (a clear example of them being allowed to race), and the only thing they're guilty of there is not criticising their driver in public enough for your satisfaction.

I know what multi 21 was. It was Vettel betting (correctly) that the team wouldn’t punish him for ignoring team orders. In both those crashes they backed the no1 driver and blamed the no2 driver.

They pick the faster driver as their no.1.

Is anyone seriously making the argument that they don’t favour drivers?

quokula · 17-12-2020 7:18pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I know what multi 21 was. It was Vettel betting (correctly) that the team wouldn’t punish him for ignoring team orders. In both those crashes they backed the no1 driver and blamed the no2 driver.

They pick the faster driver as their no.1.

Is anyone seriously making the argument that they don’t favour drivers?

If you favour one driver over another one, you would use team orders in his favour. Not, as Red Bull did, use team orders against him. The fact he ignored those team orders and overtook Webber in a racing move on track is not in any way due to Red Bull.

How would you expect them to punish him? He was the world champion and the world championship leader. They publicly admonished him over the radio, and I'm sure they did more behind closed doors. What more could they do that wouldn't actively sabotage themselves in the championship?

Again, your strongest example of them favouring one driver is an incident where they tried to use team orders against that driver. A race which that driver won by outracing the other driver fair and square out on track against the team's wishes, and a race which the team criticised him for winning. I'm really flabbergasted at how utterly logically backward it is to try and use that as evidence that the team favoured that driver.

So yes, I am seriously making the argument that they don't have a history of favouring one driver over another, because all the evidence points pretty indisputably to that being the case, as the crazy backward logic of using multi 21, or incidents where the drivers were allowed to race eachother but crashed as the main counter arguments show.

weisses · 17-12-2020 8:03pm

GarIT wrote: »

If you're agreeing there was too much pressure for him then we are in agreement that it's toxic.

Of course not ..What a ridiculous point to make

Gasly crashed the red bull during the winter test ..having huge implications for the team.. Is that because the team is being toxic or is it because he made balls of his first day in a red bull ?

Gasly's departure is of Gasly's own making He is simply not top team material.

And thumbs up for the way he drives at AT

pjohnson · 17-12-2020 8:06pm

So Latifi was poor compared to Russell because Williams is toxic.......interesting theory.

weisses · 17-12-2020 8:09pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is anyone seriously making the argument that they don’t favour drivers?

Verstappen is their No 1 driver.. I see no other driver bar 1 or 2 who could sit next to Max as an equal

I just don't buy the idea that RB is unable to provide the number 2 driver with the same backing and opportunities as their first driver. They just need a capable number 2 who can finish top 4 on a regular basis within reach of the Mercs.

weisses · 17-12-2020 8:10pm

pjohnson wrote: »

So Latifi was poor compared to Russell because Williams is toxic.......interesting theory.

Yeah ... The mind boggles

weisses · 17-12-2020 8:15pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You call it being unable to handle the pressure of a top team, I call it red bull being unable to nurture young talent.

It’s in red bull’s interest to get the most out of their young drivers and they fail to do it. Gasley being better either side of his RB stint is a demonstration of that.

Nurturing the talent is done with AT ..Once you are at red bull you need to perform ..simple as that It is in Red Bulls interest to find and train capable drivers for their n1 team ..That is where they failed, the 3 who got thew seat next to Max were not good enough for the step up, they got the opportunity and failed. ... Hopefully our Japanese friend will perform at AT so he can have a go at the main team in 1 or 2 years

Charlie-Bravo · 17-12-2020 8:15pm

I have an idea if there happens to be a team or two go bust... If teams were able to field a third car, only that third car could have one of a pool of rookie drivers for the race weekend. The driver would get a standardised steering wheel, and each driver would race at in at least one race weekend at each team. So say for even the 10 teams, each rookie driver could spend two race sessions per team across a 20-race season.

corminators · 18-12-2020 11:26am

Ineos just bought 1/3 of Mercedes f1 team

https://twitter.com/INEOS/status/1339873678637625344?s=20

El_Duderino 09 · 18-12-2020 2:30pm

quokula wrote: »

If you favour one driver over another one, you would use team orders in his favour. Not, as Red Bull did, use team orders against him. The fact he ignored those team orders and overtook Webber in a racing move on track is not in any way due to Red Bull.
...

That’s not the only way to favour a driver. They imposed team orders on the drivers (and when the no1 defied them, they said he was a naughty boy but hey-ho, he’s a racer and that’s why we love him). They did naff all about it (nothing as far as we can tell) because Seb was the goose who laid the golden eggs. He was their no.1 driver.

The notion that RB doesn’t favour it’s faster driver, is to deny the evidence of our eyes. Why did Red Bull sack-off Sainz? Because the No.1 said so. Now they’re struggling to find a top driver to partner the No.1 and they’re settling for an experienced, middle of the road driver while Sainz gets a chance with Ferrari.

It doesn’t add up. Max is their main man right now and o think it probably extends to the point of preventing them from
Signing a second top driver.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-12-2020 2:44pm

weisses wrote: »

Nurturing the talent is done with AT ..Once you are at red bull you need to perform ..simple as that It is in Red Bulls interest to find and train capable drivers for their n1 team ..That is where they failed, the 3 who got thew seat next to Max were not good enough for the step up, they got the opportunity and failed. ... Hopefully our Japanese friend will perform at AT so he can have a go at the main team in 1 or 2 years

And that’s all well and good to say and it’s a great approach on paper, but they aren’t getting good performance from these guys. And if they didn’t need good performance from those guys then it would also be fine, but they do need good performances from them and they fail to get them. So it’s a RB problem.

You’re kinda agreeing with me that RB is failing to get the best from these drivers.

If a driver like Albon can do well in the TR and then once in the RB, perform about as well as Gasley in the AT, it suggests that either the AT is about as fast as the RB, or the drivers perform better at TR/AT then they do at RB. And if that happens a few times, the it suggests it’s a problem at RB.

Inquitus · 18-12-2020 3:02pm

Gonna be really interesting to see how Checo stacks up against Max next year, will really be a chance to gauge them both, also if Checo performs better than Albon and consistently inserts himself into the battle for the top 4 in the race as well as qualifying it will really open lots of tactical doors for RB which have all been firmly closed with a poorly performing Albon at the helm of the 2nd RB.

Sheeps · 18-12-2020 3:11pm

Sad to see Albon go (Really I'm just sad he didn't do better), but happier to see Checo get his seat.

weisses · 18-12-2020 3:40pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And that’s all well and good to say and it’s a great approach on paper, but they aren’t getting good performance from these guys. And if they didn’t need good performance from those guys then it would also be fine, but they do need good performances from them and they fail to get them. So it’s a RB problem.

You’re kinda agreeing with me that RB is failing to get the best from these drivers.

If a driver like Albon can do well in the TR and then once in the RB, perform about as well as Gasley in the AT, it suggests that either the AT is about as fast as the RB, or the drivers perform better at TR/AT then they do at RB. And if that happens a few times, the it suggests it’s a problem at RB.

Of course its a RB problem, They did not put the best drivers in the second car, .... The RB is a GP winning car (both cars) The problem was they only had 1 driver capable of just doing that.

duploelabs · 18-12-2020 3:47pm

weisses wrote: »

Of course its a RB problem, They did not put the best drivers in the second car, .... The RB is a GP winning car (both cars) The problem was they only had 1 driver capable of just doing that.

Daniel Riccardo would like a word

quokula · 18-12-2020 3:49pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The notion that RB doesn’t favour it’s faster driver, is to deny the evidence of our eyes. Why did Red Bull sack-off Sainz? Because the No.1 said so. Now they’re struggling to find a top driver to partner the No.1 and they’re settling for an experienced, middle of the road driver while Sainz gets a chance with Ferrari.

Sainz scored less than half as many points as Verstappen when they were team mates. Red Bull have a record of bringing the best of the best into F1. They want another Verstappen or Vettel. They are the only top team who regularly promote drivers and give them an opportunity to perform. If they do, they are kept on. If they don't, they are ultimately let go.

They dropped Sainz because he didn't show at Toro Rosso that he'd be able to push Verstappen. They had wanted to keep Ricciardo who was a very strong driver, but he followed the money to Renault. They then gave Gasly a go because he was strong at Toro Rosso and they thought he had more potential, but he didn't perform. They brought Albon in because he too was strong at Toro Rosso, but again he couldn't hold a candle to Max.

They have now hired Perez, who has a strong case for being the best F1 driver in the world right now who isn't already contracted to someone else. They're doing everything in their power to get the most competitive driver they can in that seat, albeit within the confines of their own driver program prior to now. This is a pretty stark contrast to other top teams, for example Mercedes keeping Bottas trundling around year after year without the slightest interest in putting a competitive driver in that seat.

You've gone from trying to use the fact that they used team orders against Vettel to prove they gave him preferential treatment, to using the fact that they keep trying to put faster drivers in the seat next to Max as proof that they don't want him to have a competitive team mate. These are some serious stretches of logic.

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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