Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

MadYaker

Why do they make the teams use turbo hybrid engines? The emissions from F1 don’t contribute in any meaningful way to climate change. Each race is probably less than a transatlantic flight and they don’t have 20 races a year. Is it just virtue signalling?

eviltimeban

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Apparently Ted Kravitz says Perez will be confirmed at RB next week....

A shame for Hulk.

ELM327

eviltimeban wrote: »

A shame for Hulk.

True but I'd take perez over hulk tbh.
I dislike Perez but there's no doubting his point scoring consistency and tire management. RB will be a lot better for having Perez to Albon

flazio

Whatever he's like as a driver, Vettel is still a class gentleman.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1338418190662168576?s=19

the_pen_turner

MadYaker wrote: »

Why do they make the teams use turbo hybrid engines? The emissions from F1 don’t contribute in any meaningful way to climate change. Each race is probably less than a transatlantic flight and they don’t have 20 races a year. Is it just virtue signalling?

it doesnt make sense. make the cars half green on paper but load them into loads of trucks and drive them around the world , probably on huge cargo ships and cargo planes. same for the drivers flying everywhere.
the fuel saved by 'going green ' is so small it makes no diference

Infoanon

Another year done and dusted - unfortunately the championship was done and dusted early on with a huge gap between Mercedes and everyone else. Closer mid field battles was good to see but there were too many snore fests.

My Top 3 drivers - Lewis / Max / Perez
Underperformers Top 3:- Latifi / Stroll / Vettel

2021 looks like another walk in the park for Mercedes given the gap

ELM327

Infoanon wrote: »

Another year done and dusted - unfortunately the championship was done and dusted early on with a huge gap between Mercedes and everyone else. Closer mid field battles was good to see but there were too many snore fests.

My Top 3 drivers - Lewis / Max / Perez
Underperformers Top 3:- Latifi / Stroll / Vettel

2021 looks like another walk in the park for Mercedes given the gap

Good sum up.

My Top 3 drivers - Max / Perez/Russel
Underperformers Top 3:- Bottas/ Vettel/Albon

El_Duderino 09

MadYaker wrote: »

Why do they make the teams use turbo hybrid engines? The emissions from F1 don’t contribute in any meaningful way to climate change. Each race is probably less than a transatlantic flight and they don’t have 20 races a year. Is it just virtue signalling?

It’s the technology the manufacturers want to research and develop. Not virtue signalling, just progression of technology - insofar as internal combustion engines have a future.

I think F1 misses the point on the technology. Instead of talking about what they do in the 20 F1 cars, they ought to trumpet the application to millions of road cars and the increased thermal efficiency which stems from F1 R&D.

ELM327

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s the technology the manufacturers want to research and develop. Not virtue signalling, just progression of technology - insofar as internal combustion engines have a future.

I think F1 misses the point on the technology. Instead of talking about what they do in the 20 F1 cars, they ought to trumpet the application to millions of road cars and the increased thermal efficiency which stems from F1 R&D.

I'm curious. Can you point me to a V6 turbo hybrid road car that's available for sale?

Unless of course you're referring to general hybrid cars, which predates the application in F1 by about 15 years. The honda insight was available to buy in 1998, along with the mk1 prius shortly after.

GarIT

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm curious. Can you point me to a V6 turbo hybrid road car that's available for sale?

Unless of course you're referring to general hybrid cars, which predates the application in F1 by about 15 years. The honda insight was available to buy in 1998, along with the mk1 prius shortly after.

Existing before F1 doesn't mean it can't be improved from research in F1

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Sure here is one ->

https://www.porsche.com/uk/models/panamera/panamera-models/panamera-4s-e-hybrid-sport-turismo/

Turbo V6 + 100kW Electric Motor

Interesting, and are there "millions of road cars" on the road from that?

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You didnt ask that.

I did, it's clearly bolded in the quote in my post.

OSI wrote: »

More than there are V10s pumping out 18,000 rpm

That's my point though. F1 should be the pinnacle of engineering, not a compromised nonsense spec that vaguely is related to road cars.

MadYaker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s the technology the manufacturers want to research and develop. Not virtue signalling, just progression of technology - insofar as internal combustion engines have a future.

I think F1 misses the point on the technology. Instead of talking about what they do in the 20 F1 cars, they ought to trumpet the application to millions of road cars and the increased thermal efficiency which stems from F1 R&D.

Internal combustion engines don't have a future (at least for transportation) and if for some unknown reason manufacturers want to research and develop new ways for soon-to-be-extinct ICEs to be more efficient let them go and do it, there is no reason to do it in F1 anymore. Did you see the reaction to Alonso's lap in the R25? I find it very hard to believe that majority of drivers and spectators don't want something a bit more exciting. Its supposed to be for entertainment.

ELM327

MadYaker wrote: »

Internal combustion engines don't have a future (at least for transportation) and if for some unknown reason manufacturers want to research and develop new ways for soon-to-be-extinct ICEs to be more efficient let them go and do it, there is no reason to do it in F1 anymore. Did you see the reaction to Alonso's lap in the R25? I find it very hard to believe that majority of drivers and spectators don't want something a bit more exciting. Its supposed to be for entertainment.

+1
And also, I'd suggest that the R25 would be at least as fast if not faster than the current cars around that track. Considering the current cars have DRS too, I think that says a lot.

MadYaker

It was a bit slower but who cares??? The noise makes it seem faster and the smaller narrow body cars are much better for wheel to wheel racing.

quokula

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Sure here is one ->

https://www.porsche.com/uk/models/panamera/panamera-models/panamera-4s-e-hybrid-sport-turismo/

Turbo V6 + 100kW Electric Motor

Amazing how all those learnings that come from F1 only made it onto the road from a manufacturer with no involvement in the sport.

"Virtue signalling" is a silly term in most use cases, but in the case of the F1 hybrids it is pretty accurate. It's a pure marketing scam to call their cars hybrids, while having as little relationship with road going cars as the previous generation did, which is fine, as F1 is supposed to be a sport, not an R&D facility.

It's telling that in Mercedes' corporate accounts for example, the F1 team is listed as a marketing expense, not an R&D expense.

I wouldn't be surprised if the hybrids actually increased F1's overall emissions as they're lugging far heavier parts all over the planet just so they can drive a small number of kilometers at the track a bit more efficiently.

Fully electric vehicles are the way forward in the real world on the road, "self charging" hybrids are a technological dead end. None of this should matter to F1 because it should be a sport. No other sport is subject to these kinds of self destructive rule changes for the sake of supposedly benefitting things in the outside world that have nothing whatsoever to do with the sport.

quokula

MadYaker wrote: »

It was a bit slower but who cares??? The noise makes it seem faster and the smaller narrow body cars are much better for wheel to wheel racing.

It was actually faster than the fastest race lap. A bit slower than the qualifying times, but considering it was just a demo run and had no proper setup time, and it was on tyres it wasn't designed for, I'd suggest it would be well capable of matching or beating them with a little bit of optimisation.

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Your post and I quote:



So I did, any other requirements you want to add after the fact?

Are you ignoring the bold text included in the post I quoted on purpose or accidentally?

quokula

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Porsche had a engine pretty much ready to go for the F1 season but decided against it. The V4 from the 919 was going to have two more cylinders added as it had all the hybrid tech already in it.

I'm aware they had an engine from WEC that was ready to adapt to F1 but ultimately even then they still decided F1 wasn't worth competing in - surely that's a further nail in the coffin for the idea that these regulations were a good thing, rather than a supporting argument.

afatbollix

When Australia was canceled I was really worried about this year. Remember all the teams building ventilators for months instead of race cars I thought we were done for the year.

Then the money issues at McLaren I thought it was unlikely to see 10 teams by the end.

Great to see so many old tracks back too.

I am also glad to say that I had a call from FOM to help with the broadcast side of things as we were in talks to move production back to London but they said it was a 3-year project. They did it in 3 months! They used to send 350 people to each race, It's now about 50 engineers and 20 cameramen. It was a lot of work to get it set up and then a grueling schedule from race to race with fewer people and longer away from family.
78,000 covid tests were done by F1 and 78 people tested positive during the year which I think is a very low number.


Well done everyone involved in the circus I really enjoyed this year when we needed it most.

ELM327

Way to avoid the point made, but whatever.
I'm sure a v6 turbo hybrid panamera (which seems the only v6 turbo hybrid road car currently) was worth bastardizing the entire f1 setup for it.

quokula

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I can't speak to Porsche's decision but its often very complicated. Just look at the manufactures leaving Formula E. That's the green side of motorsport but companies are jumping ship, it doesn't mean the no longer support the idea of green/cleaner motorsport.

Again, this is why tailoring your sport to meet the fickle needs of car manufacturer's marketing departments at the expense of independent teams and exciting racing is such a terrible idea.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm curious. Can you point me to a V6 turbo hybrid road car that's available for sale?

Unless of course you're referring to general hybrid cars, which predates the application in F1 by about 15 years. The honda insight was available to buy in 1998, along with the mk1 prius shortly after.

You’re indeed not curious, as it was a rhetorical question.

If I had said “because of all the v6 F1 engines in road cars” then your question would have been a zinger.

The thermal efficiency gain is the key. The energy recovery R&D, the integrated hybrid systems, the better battery usage R&D, the fuel technology advances, the introduction of biofuels over the next few years and how they can maximise their use. Those things have application the motor industry in cars and beyond.

But f1 is reluctant to talk about any of the pace things in depth because it’s primary run by and it’s primary fan base is old men who don’t want to know about it and would prefer to go back to the past instead of look to the future.

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

More cars off the top of my head that 6 pot hybrids

Mercedes 43 AMG
Honda NSX
Lexus LC500
BMW X5 (I6)

But the point is the tech will eventually trickle down to road cars. Its not an instant process.

Are they V6 turbo hybrids?
We have this bastardized series for 6 years already

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

I did, it's clearly bolded in the quote in my post.



That's my point though. F1 should be the pinnacle of engineering, not a compromised nonsense spec that vaguely is related to road cars.

V10 can’t be the pinnacle of engineering. It’s old technology. The pinnacle of engineering has to be new technology and ideally should be the technology of the future.

I’m not sure f1 has the right formula right now. The current formula is what the manufacturers and teams compromised on but it might not have been what anyone really wanted. I doubt anyone is getting great bang for their buck and they’re probably going to freeze development which is a big sign of failure.

Hopefully the 2025 formula is both future based and useful.

GarIT

ELM327 wrote: »

Are they V6 turbo hybrids?
We have this bastardized series for 6 years already

You do realise that V6 turbo hybrids aren't unique and different from every other enging, you can learn from them and use that knowledge in similar but not necessarily the exact same engine.

quokula

LIGHTNING wrote: »

More cars off the top of my head that 6 pot hybrids

Mercedes 43 AMG
Honda NSX
Lexus LC500
BMW X5 (I6)

But the point is the tech will eventually trickle down to road cars. Its not an instant process.

The NSX is a 3.5 litre engine accompanied by some electric motors driving the front axles to make it four wheel drive. It's relationship to current F1 is basically zero.

I'm not even sure what Mercedes you're talking about, I'm not aware of any hybrid 43 AMG and couldn't find one googling. Plenty of V8 Mercedes and every other engine configuration you can think of.

Toyota and BMW aren't involved in F1, so they're not learning anything that they're applying to hybrid cars either.

It's just not true that F1 is some massive R&D hotbed for the road. And even if it was, it shouldn't be, because it's supposed to be a sport.

For car manufacturers it is a marketing platform and nothing else. The same as it is for the likes of Red Bull, but at least their goals are to associate their brand with high adrenaline excitement, as seen in their sponsorship of many sports, rather than things like fuel efficiency and reliability that the hybrids are associated with.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

...
Fully electric vehicles are the way forward in the real world on the road, "self charging" hybrids are a technological dead end. None of this should matter to F1 because it should be a sport. No other sport is subject to these kinds of self destructive rule changes for the sake of supposedly benefitting things in the outside world that have nothing whatsoever to do with the sport.

Do you think there was ever a time when the sport wasn’t also about developing technology?


This is the fundamental misunderstanding about f1. It used to be all about the technology of the future which attracted all ages who could look at F1 for a glimpse of a possible future. Now it’s becoming more of nostalgia formula for old men, which shuns the future and harks back to the 80s when every race was brilliant and Laura and Hunt spent the whole race side by side around every corner.

F1 will die if it doesn’t look to the future and might die anyway. But if it looks backwards then it’s giving up on life.

GarIT

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you think there was ever a time when the sport wasn’t also about developing technology?


This is the fundamental misunderstanding about f1. It used to be all about the technology of the future which attracted all ages who could look at F1 for a glimpse of a possible future. Now it’s becoming more of nostalgia formula for old men, which shuns the future and harks back to the 80s when every race was brilliant and Laura and Hund spent the whole race side by side around every corner.

F1 will die if it doesn’t look to the future and might die anyway. But if it looks backwards then it’s giving up on life.

I'm not so sure. I'd likely watch wherever has the best drivers. I'd love an international competition with identical or quite similar cars and leagues/devisions and promotion/relegation of national teams.

donspeekinglesh

quokula wrote: »

Toyota and BMW aren't involved in F1, so they're not learning anything that they're applying to hybrid cars either.

For car manufacturers it is a marketing platform and nothing else.

Toyota are learning about hybrids in WEC. They're one of the few (maybe only) manufacturers that pay for racing out of R&D and not Marketing.

Porsche learnt a huge amount about batteries racing in WEC. So it doesn't matter that you can't buy a car with the same engine as the 919 - what they learnt will apply to every car they make.