Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Adamocovic · 16-12-2020 9:58pm

GarIT wrote: »

Helmut Marko hinting at Perez. He said that he likes Tsunoda so much he wanted to put him in the Red Bull but he thinks they can win the teams championship if they have two drivers who can challenge at the front next season.

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

Frank Bullitt · 16-12-2020 11:07pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

If we know anything about RB, it's this.

Infoanon · 16-12-2020 11:19pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

Why would be ruthless for Albon not to have a seat at Red Bull ? , the gap to Max is too big effectively limiting the race options available which greatly disadvantages them against Mercedes .

If Red Bull are serious about the championship next season then they need a stronger driver in the second car.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-12-2020 11:32pm

Infoanon wrote: »

Why would be ruthless for Albon not to have a seat at Red Bull ? , the gap to Max is too big effectively limiting the race options available which greatly disadvantages them against Mercedes .

If Red Bull are serious about the championship next season then they need a stronger driver in the second car.

I suspect Perez would be slightly more competitive with Max, but not near Max’s level. I think there’s good reason to suspect RB is so set up for Max that it’s a toxic environment for the second driver. I think Perez will handle it better than a young driver.

I think if RB want to be competitive for a championship, they need a strong driver, as you said, but they also need to treat both drivers well.

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 10:58am

Adamocovic wrote: »

If that’s the case what happens to Albon?
Would seem ruthless for him not to have a seat. But Red Bull have been ruthless before.

Test driver.

He's not shown he can keep a top 2 car in the top 4. So he's useless.

Charlie-Bravo · 17-12-2020 12:20pm

Wow, that's harsh. So Bottas is useful, as he can (often) keep a top 1 car in the top 2!

touch in cheek comment before anyone gets on my case!!

GarIT · 17-12-2020 12:28pm

astrofluff wrote: »

Wow, that's harsh. So Bottas is useful, as he can (often) keep a top 1 car in the top 2! touch in cheek comment before anyone gets on my case!!

Both teams have said as much. The only role of the second driver is to make sure Max can't undercut Lewis and vice versa.

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 12:35pm

astrofluff wrote: »

Wow, that's harsh. So Bottas is useful, as he can (often) keep a top 1 car in the top 2! touch in cheek comment before anyone gets on my case!!

Lol.
Bottas is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
If RB have two cars challenging for a win, then merc may have to do something about it but for now he's doing enough.

Charlie-Bravo · 17-12-2020 12:39pm

So what you are saying is....if RB sign Perez, then Merc need Russell next year to stop RB from causing them a headache. Got'ya loud and clear ;p

ELM327 · 17-12-2020 12:43pm

I know you're taking the pee, but it could be for 2022. If RB have both cars challenging each race then it would force merc to have a decent driver in the second car or RB could win the constructors.

weisses · 17-12-2020 1:39pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suspect Perez would be slightly more competitive with Max, but not near Max’s level. I think there’s good reason to suspect RB is so set up for Max that it’s a toxic environment for the second driver.

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

GarIT · 17-12-2020 1:45pm

weisses wrote: »

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

Ricciardo has said he left because of how they favoured Max and he knew he couldn't get anywhere with the team despite being talented.

artanevilla · 17-12-2020 1:46pm

weisses wrote: »

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

Mercedes...

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 1:52pm

weisses wrote: »

Can you outline that please ?

I cannot see a top team being geared towards only one side of the garage. specially when a Constructors win is equally as important as a drivers world champion plus the fact that you need two competitive drivers up front for strategy ...

Red Bull lacked a second competitive driver after Ricciardo's departure

Yeah RB has had a pretty clear driver 1-2 policy (see Vettel vs Webber in Turkey and max Vs Ric in Baku). Now they have Max who is the golden boy and any of the three drivers they put because him since Ric, have looked good in the TR/AT and have crumbled when promoted.

Gasley, for example, looked good at AT, looked terrible at RB and moved back to AT and looked good again. It’s very rare to get a good back to back experiment like that and it suggests that RB is not good at introducing drivers to the team since Max’s arrival.

Look at the relationship between Norris and Sainz and compare that to the openly hostile attitude Max has to his teammates. The messaging is pretty clear and RB is fine with it “Max is the no.1 around here”.

GarIT · 17-12-2020 1:57pm

There's also Sainz being refused the Red Bull seat he was next in like for and dropped because Max said so.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 2:06pm

GarIT wrote: »

There's also Sainz being refused the Red Bull seat he was next in like for and dropped because Max said so.

The idea that they chucked Sainz and are struggling to find a good driver, is a sign that they are caught between two minds.

weisses · 17-12-2020 2:15pm

GarIT wrote: »

Ricciardo has said he left because of how they favoured Max and he knew he couldn't get anywhere with the team despite being talented.

Not true

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145388/ricciardo-engineer-loss-played-part-in-red-bull-exit

"There were a lot of reasons, but losing Simon - I knew he wasn't going to engineer this year, if I stayed at Red Bull, and I thought I had a good relationship with him, and there were some unknowns," Ricciardo admitted during this year's Hungarian Grand Prix.

"I was certainly comfortable with him. If I knew he stayed, I don't know if that would've been the deciding factor, but it was another [thing] - obviously when you've got the Honda concern and a few others, I guess that was another little thing.

"As I said, there were lots of these little things which probably added up - I don't want to say 'concerns' but unknowns. 'Concerns' is probably a bit disrespectful."

Ricciardo reiterated that there was not "one bullet" that made him leave Red Bull, and said the team's alleged favouritism towards team-mate Max Verstappen was not a major aspect, as "it was talked about more than [what] I saw".

weisses · 17-12-2020 2:20pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah RB has had a pretty clear driver 1-2 policy (see Vettel vs Webber in Turkey and max Vs Ric in Baku). Now they have Max who is the golden boy and any of the three drivers they put because him since Ric, have looked good in the TR/AT and have crumbled when promoted.

Gasley, for example, looked good at AT, looked terrible at RB and moved back to AT and looked good again. It’s very rare to get a good back to back experiment like that and it suggests that RB is not good at introducing drivers to the team since Max’s arrival.

Look at the relationship between Norris and Sainz and compare that to the openly hostile attitude Max has to his teammates. The messaging is pretty clear and RB is fine with it “Max is the no.1 around here”.

Max wasnt hostile to Gasly ... They were friends .. He wasn't hostile to Ricciardo.

of course Max is the No 1 driver ... I was wondering if you had any insight in the second driver spot being toxic ..... But it turned out its just your own opinion

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 2:49pm

weisses wrote: »

Max wasnt hostile to Gasly ... They were friends .. He wasn't hostile to Ricciardo.

of course Max is the No 1 driver ... I was wondering if you had any insight in the second driver spot being toxic ..... But it turned out its just your own opinion

Yeah. Just opinion based on the evidence of our eyes. The evidence of Gasley being good at TR, crap at RB and good again at AT, is surely worth a mention.

weisses · 17-12-2020 3:36pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. Just opinion based on the evidence of our eyes. The evidence of Gasley being good at TR, crap at RB and good again at AT, is surely worth a mention.

It is ? What was so toxic at red bull that lead to the failure of Gasly ?

GarIT · 17-12-2020 3:37pm

weisses wrote: »

It is ? What was so toxic at red bull that lead to the failure of Gasly ?

Max and Jos

El_Duderino 09 · 17-12-2020 3:43pm

weisses wrote: »

It is ? What was so toxic at red bull that lead to the failure of Gasly ?

That would be my contention, yes.

I don’t know why they fail to nurture the three young drivers they’ve brought through to partner max since he arrived, I simply observed that it happened.

weisses · 17-12-2020 4:01pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That would be my contention, yes.

I don’t know why they fail to nurture the three young drivers they’ve brought through to partner max since he arrived, I simply observed that it happened.

So you have no idea why some young drivers fail at red bull ...But somehow believe its a toxic environment for a second driver.

Is there any information out there that collaborates your view that there is a toxic environment at red bull ? ...

GarIT · 17-12-2020 4:10pm

weisses wrote: »

So you have no idea why some young drivers fail at red bull ...But somehow believe its a toxic environment for a second driver.

Is there any information out there that collaborates your view that there is a toxic environment at red bull ? ...

Two promising young drivers have struggled there. That's the relevant information. If it wasn't toxic Gasly would be fighting for wins.

weisses · 17-12-2020 4:33pm

GarIT wrote: »

Two promising young drivers have struggled there. That's the relevant information. If it wasn't toxic Gasly would be fighting for wins.

GAsly could not deal with the pressure driving for a top team

The RB16 is more difficult to drive then an AT ... Both guys are just not top tier material

A wise man once said
No point putting carrots in an apple pie and expecting a good result - just ruining good carrots really.

Jordan 199 · 17-12-2020 4:53pm

I see that Grosjean and Magnussen got steering wheels as parting presents from Haas. Nice.

GarIT · 17-12-2020 4:56pm

weisses wrote: »

GAsly could not deal with the pressure driving for a top team

The RB16 is more difficult to drive then an AT ... Both guys are just not top tier material

A wise man once said
No point putting carrots in an apple pie and expecting a good result - just ruining good carrots really.

If you're agreeing there was too much pressure for him then we are in agreement that it's toxic.

Mitch Connor · 17-12-2020 4:59pm

GarIT wrote: »

If you're agreeing there was too much pressure for him then we are in agreement that it's toxic.

Doesn't have to mean toxic.

The pressure to be 4th every weekend and competing for podiums is different to mid-table. I'm not saying that pressure was the reason (I have no idea) but not being able to handle that pressure doesn't mean the environment was toxic. Just that it has a competitive edge that is higher than elsewhere.

GarIT · 17-12-2020 5:01pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Doesn't have to mean toxic.

The pressure to be 4th every weekend and competing for podiums is different to mid-table. I'm not saying that pressure was the reason (I have no idea) but not being able to handle that pressure doesn't mean the environment was toxic. Just that it has a competitive edge that is higher than elsewhere.

I think it was toxic, because from the second or 3rd race Red Bull were talking **** about him not meeting their standards. They have taken a better approach with Albon.

quokula · 17-12-2020 5:05pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Doesn't have to mean toxic.

The pressure to be 4th every weekend and competing for podiums is different to mid-table. I'm not saying that pressure was the reason (I have no idea) but not being able to handle that pressure doesn't mean the environment was toxic. Just that it has a competitive edge that is higher than elsewhere.

Yeah there's some massive leaps being made to justify some opinions going on here. Red Bull have given these guys every opportunity, and historically have been one of the few top teams to never ever favour one driver over another, but the drivers they've put next to Max have simply not been good enough to keep up with him.

My impression is that Max is just a once in a generation talent, and the Red Bull is probably not as good a car as he's made it look, leaving other drivers looking bad when they've struggled to keep up.

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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