The Leinster Championship is dead.

ArielAtom · 07-12-2020 3:05pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

If you don't know who the GDO will be, and if it's somebody new or relatively new who's got no track record to speak of, then it's only natural to doubt whether or not it would be worth it to pay out big money for something that volunteers are already doing.

A few years back here in Wexford, there was a suggestion that groups of maybe five different clubs could come together for each to part-fund a GDO to the tune of €5,000 each per year, and then share that GDO between them.

My own club considered it and we had to conclude it wasn't feasible. Our entire annual budget is in the region of €75,000 and every cent of it is already needed. To find even an extra €5,000 every year would be a hell of a challenge, especially when it would basically be a shot in the dark. Same with just about every other club in our area, and definitely with the rural clubs that we'd be closest to.

So, in your book, you'd probably say that Wexford clubs "refused" a GDO too. But the reality is that if finance wasn't an issue, we'd be snapping it up.

Uncle I take your point on the financial commitments with regards to not engaging a GDO. Maybe thats why the Newbridge clubs did it. They simply could not afford it or as a previous poster said they felt they did not need outside help.

But to say that it is not a level playing field then is incorrect. The same resources were offered. I know you are going to say Dublin clubs can afford it. Some have to work extremely hard to raise the additional funding to secure the services of a GDO. My own club put the responsibility of funding on each section, that means the U10's have to fund raise to get footballs and sliothars. You buy your own club gear until there is a set provided by the club from u12 on.

Money is a problem for all clubs, fundraising takes place in every club in the country.

I have posted about developing plans, can you add to them. I was only scratching the surface.

gaffer91 · 07-12-2020 4:11pm

Equalising funding, while commendable and something that should have been done many years ago, won't make a difference. The damage is already done and it won't be undone. Dublin will enjoy the benefits from the last 15 years of funding for decades to come. Also, without equalising funding from all sources too it won't make a major difference.

And it's important to remember that it's not just funding. Dublin have other unfair advantages too (e.g playing finals and semi-finals in their home ground, massive population) that mean their current dominant position over other counties is unassailable. Take all these unfair advantages combined and it's evident that the current dominance is never going to end.

Dublin absolutely have to be split. I'm glad to see it's becoming a more mainstream conversation, I've been saying it for years. I initially was in favour of a two- way split, then a four way split. There is probably now an argument for a six way split in view of how much damage has been done from their decades of unfair advantages. This would benefit all counties, including Dublin. More Dublin players would get to challenge for an All-Ireland and many Dublin fans would be happy to continue supporting a Dublin subdivisional side.

ShyMets · 07-12-2020 5:22pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Equalising funding, while commendable and something that should have been done many years ago, won't make a difference. The damage is already done and it won't be undone. Dublin will enjoy the benefits from the last 15 years of funding for decades to come. Also, without equalising funding from all sources too it won't make a major difference.

And it's important to remember that it's not just funding. Dublin have other unfair advantages too (e.g playing finals and semi-finals in their home ground, massive population) that mean their current dominant position over other counties is unassailable. Take all these unfair advantages combined and it's evident that the current dominance is never going to end.

Dublin absolutely have to be split. I'm glad to see it's becoming a more mainstream conversation, I've been saying it for years. I initially was in favour of a two- way split, then a four way split. There is probably now an argument for a six way split in view of how much damage has been done from their decades of unfair advantages. This would benefit all counties, including Dublin. More Dublin players would get to challenge for an All-Ireland and many Dublin fans would be happy to continue supporting a Dublin subdivisional side.

Should other Leinster counties amalgamate or do we just need to spilt Dublin to save Leinster.

Did you smash it · 07-12-2020 5:22pm

Yesterday had Brolly in the Sindo said regions were a better form of competition than intercounty.
Yesterday evening Pat Gilroy floated the amalgamation of cork and Kerry on the Sunday game.
Today on the GAA hour Cian Ward said the “county game is dead and gone” and floated the idea of professional franchises.

We are in the early knockings of revolution. Depending on how the GPA are feeling then things could snowball very quickly here.

Uncle Pierre · 07-12-2020 5:24pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

But to say that it is not a level playing field then is incorrect. The same resources were offered. I know you are going to say Dublin clubs can afford it.

Yes, it all goes back to that word "proportionate", doesn't it? And that can mean lots of things.

For example, if we wanted a GDO of our own, it would cost us 33% of our entire annual budget.

But if a "superclub" like Ballyboden or Cuala (with 3,000 or more members and a probable income of €500,000 or more from membership fees alone) wanted one, it would cost them only 5% of their membership take, never mind their total annual income.

Level isn't always level.

gaffer91 · 07-12-2020 5:33pm

ShyMets wrote: »

Should other Leinster counties amalgamate or do we just need to spilt Dublin to save Leinster.

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered but Dublin need to be split first and foremost. It’s the single most important reform that can be undertaken to help gaelic football in all counties. Other reforms can follow from there.

tobefrank321 · 07-12-2020 5:37pm

Did you smash it wrote: »

Yesterday had Brolly in the Sindo said regions were a better form of competition than intercounty.
Yesterday evening Pat Gilroy floated the amalgamation of cork and Kerry on the Sunday game.
Today on the GAA hour Cian Ward said the “county game is dead and gone” and floated the idea of professional franchises.

We are in the early knockings of revolution. Depending on how the GPA are feeling then things could snowball very quickly here.

Professional franchises would be brilliant. Part of the reason for the current mess is the GAA attitude towards amateurism. Its like rugby decades ago. You had essentially professional rugby players whose sole job was to train and play rugby with some made up "job" in the background. Other amateurs were forced to play against them.
No-one can doubt once you introduced full professionalism in rugby, smaller countries like Ireland could compete against the bigger ones. There is no way we could have beaten France, England, NZ, SA or Australia on a regular basis if rugby was still amateur.

As long as the GAA are wedded to amateurism, we'll have an unbalanced AI.

Did you smash it · 07-12-2020 5:44pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Yes, it all goes back to that word "proportionate", doesn't it? And that can mean lots of things.

For example, if we wanted a GDO of our own, it would cost us 33% of our entire annual budget.

But if a "superclub" like Ballyboden or Cuala (with 3,000 or more members and a probable income of €500,000 or more from membership fees alone) wanted one, it would cost them only 5% of their membership take, never mind their total annual income.

Level isn't always level.

You need to factor in that For superclubs these GPOs actually pay for themselves through increased club memberships from kids and families signing up as members.

The Dublin project is a money making dream. I don’t think it’s affects the Dublin senior team that much but it’s makes Dublin clubs money making machines and builds GAA in the county.

Did you smash it · 07-12-2020 5:45pm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Professional franchises would be brilliant. Part of the reason for the current mess is the GAA attitude towards amateurism. Its like athletics and rugby decades ago. You had essentially professional athletes and rugby players whose sole job was to train and play rugby with some made up "job" in the background. Other amateurs were forced to play against them.
No-one can doubt once you introduced full professionalism in rugby, smaller countries like Ireland could compete against the bigger ones. There is no way we could have beaten France, England, NZ, SA or Australia on a regular basis if rugby was still amateur.

As long as the GAA are wedded to amateurism, we'll have an unbalanced AI.

I see nothing wrong with following the model of elite sport every other country on earth practices.

ArielAtom · 07-12-2020 5:53pm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Professional franchises would be brilliant. Part of the reason for the current mess is the GAA attitude towards amateurism. Its like athletics and rugby decades ago. You had essentially professional athletes and rugby players whose sole job was to train and play rugby with some made up "job" in the background. Other amateurs were forced to play against them.
No-one can doubt once you introduced full professionalism in rugby, smaller countries like Ireland could compete against the bigger ones. There is no way we could have beaten France, England, NZ, SA or Australia on a regular basis if rugby was still amateur.

As long as the GAA are wedded to amateurism, we'll have an unbalanced AI.

And professionalism killed the club rugby game. Don't think its a great model to use for our games. Not sure what others think.

ShyMets · 07-12-2020 6:02pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered but Dublin need to be split first and foremost. It’s the single most important reform that can be undertaken to help gaelic football in all counties. Other reforms can follow from there.

Ok. So you're solution does nothing to help the vast majority of counties but only benefits a small number. So not much change.

tobefrank321 · 07-12-2020 6:05pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

And professionalism killed the club rugby game. Don't think its a great model to use for our games. Not sure what others think.

Bit of an exaggeration? The club game continues and its not as if it was anything to write home about before professionalism.

threeball · 07-12-2020 6:07pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

And professionalism killed the club rugby game. Don't think its a great model to use for our games. Not sure what others think.

But you can't have it both ways. Professional set ups running amateur atheltes against amateurs running amateurs is doing as much damage as a professional league would. At least a youngster playing club might aspire to play as a professional footballer. Now all they can aspire to is getting 7 shades knocked out of them by Dublin so they won't even bother.

If you have no hope of success then the disillusion sets in. Its already there in counties that have no hope at the moment. It will be in every county in a few years time. I'm not for professionalism but its preferable to the current situation. At least there would be competition and a game worth watching.

gaffer91 · 07-12-2020 6:12pm

ShyMets wrote: »

Ok. So you're solution does nothing to help the vast majority of counties but only benefits a small number. So not much change.

We had this conversation only a few days ago. You don't seem to understand the argument. Dublin need to be split because of the combination, nature scale and duration of unfair advantages they enjoy (funding, population, home pitch etc). Not just because they are winning.

You are pro-Dublin. I am just pro-Gaelic football.

Splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring there is still a viable competition they can compete in. It's one of the very few reforms you can say definitely helps all counties, including Dublin.

Not splitting Dublin kills the game at inter-county level.

ArielAtom · 07-12-2020 6:17pm

threeball wrote: »

But you can't have it both ways. Professional set ups running amateur atheltes against amateurs running amateurs is doing as much damage as a professional league would. At least a youngster playing club might aspire to play as a professional footballer. Now all they can aspire to is getting 7 shades knocked out of them by Dublin so they won't even bother.

If you have no hope of success then the disillusion sets in. Its already there in counties that have no hope at the moment. It will be in every county in a few years time. I'm not for professionalism but its preferable to the current situation. At least there would be competition and a game worth watching.

Professionalism is a non-runner for me. To be quite honest I'm club before county. If a lad from the club makes county level great, but I'm not going to base the success of my club on the IC scene. I have already stated that a cohesive plan to assist every county in achieving their maximum must be implemented. Forget about Dublin for 5 minutes and lets focus on developing structures both from an operational and coaching perspective in every county at club level. If a lad make IC great, but don't measure the success of your club on IC representation. We as a club have over 3k in members, we have three lads on the IC panel. One nearing the end of his days, one breaking through after years slogging in the winter not to make the Championship squad.

Ask them which they preferred winning , the club AI with the lads they grew up playing with or the County. I've heard the answer and been part of the celebrations. The two don't compare.

If County boards get the structures right at development and club level progress will happen.

There is no quick fix.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-12-2020 6:19pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

We had this conversation only a few days ago. You don't seem to understand the argument. Dublin need to be split because of the combination, nature scale and duration of unfair advantages they enjoy (funding, population, home pitch etc). Not just because they are winning.

You are pro-Dublin. I am just pro-Gaelic football.

Splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring there is still a viable competition they can compete in. It's one of the very few reforms you can say definitely helps all counties, including Dublin.

Not splitting Dublin kills the game at inter-county level.

So you just split in football?

tobefrank321 · 07-12-2020 6:27pm

threeball wrote: »

But you can't have it both ways. Professional set ups running amateur atheltes against amateurs running amateurs is doing as much damage as a professional league would. At least a youngster playing club might aspire to play as a professional footballer. Now all they can aspire to is getting 7 shades knocked out of them by Dublin so they won't even bother.

I'm old enough to remember us getting thrashed year in year out by the French, English, NZ, Australian and SA rugby teams, with only occasional victories. From 1974 to 1999, we beat the French a grand total of twice, losing the other 24 games. It took about 5 years to become competitive under professionalism, mainly because of the young professionals like O'Driscoll, O'Gara and O'Connell coming through, but from 2000 to 2020, we beat the French 9 times, including at a World Cup.

Its unlikely Argentina would be competitive either in an amateur era. They've come on massively in recent years.

tobefrank321 · 07-12-2020 6:28pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

Professionalism is a non-runner for me. To be quite honest I'm club before county. If a lad from the club makes county level great, but I'm not going to base the success of my club on the IC scene. I have already stated that a cohesive plan to assist every county in achieving their maximum must be implemented. Forget about Dublin for 5 minutes and lets focus on developing structures both from an operational and coaching perspective in every county at club level. If a lad make IC great, but don't measure the success of your club on IC representation. We as a club have over 3k in members, we have three lads on the IC panel. One nearing the end of his days, one breaking through after years slogging in the winter not to make the Championship squad.

Ask them which they preferred winning , the club AI with the lads they grew up playing with or the County. I've heard the answer and been part of the celebrations. The two don't compare.

If County boards get the structures right at development and club level progress will happen.

There is no quick fix.

Of course you are. You're against any serious change to the status quo. No surprise there.

gaffer91 · 07-12-2020 6:33pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So you just split in football?

Hurling should be considered as well (population alone was always ground for a split, even before the funding started, but I was previously only in favour of a two way split). Into how many teams can be debated as I'm genuinely unsure how much of the funding that has been unfairly pumped into them as opposed to the footballers.

But I find people just try to deflect and obfuscate during these discussions. Dublin need to be split into at least four teams because of the unfair advantages they enjoy. That's the bottom line. Other reforms to Gaelic Football at inter-county can also be considered but without the split of Dublin first, they will be irrelevant.

threeball · 07-12-2020 6:58pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

Professionalism is a non-runner for me. To be quite honest I'm club before county. If a lad from the club makes county level great, but I'm not going to base the success of my club on the IC scene. I have already stated that a cohesive plan to assist every county in achieving their maximum must be implemented. Forget about Dublin for 5 minutes and lets focus on developing structures both from an operational and coaching perspective in every county at club level. If a lad make IC great, but don't measure the success of your club on IC representation. We as a club have over 3k in members, we have three lads on the IC panel. One nearing the end of his days, one breaking through after years slogging in the winter not to make the Championship squad.

Ask them which they preferred winning , the club AI with the lads they grew up playing with or the County. I've heard the answer and been part of the celebrations. The two don't compare.

If County boards get the structures right at development and club level progress will happen.

There is no quick fix.

You're against professionalism as long as its everyone else's team. Its OK for yours though.

No one here is equating club success with having county players so not sure where that came from. Until 3yrs ago Corofin had only 3 players on the county team. Its a argument you made up in your own head.

The elephant in the room is the professionalism that exists in an amateur game as it stands. The funds are not there to roll that out to all counties. Not even close. Three choices
Dublin forego all funding
Dublin split
We all go pro with maybe 10 teams covering all the country.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-12-2020 6:59pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Hurling should be considered as well (population alone was always ground for a split, even before the funding started, but I was previously only in favour of a two way split). Into how many teams can be debated as I'm genuinely unsure how much of the funding that has been unfairly pumped into them as opposed to the footballers.

But I find people just try to deflect and obfuscate during these discussions. Dublin need to be split into at least four teams because of the unfair advantages they enjoy. That's the bottom line. Other reforms to Gaelic Football at inter-county can also be considered but without the split of Dublin first, they will be irrelevant.

Its all or nothing for me, both football and hurling.

If not then then it's going to be a disaster. It might well be anyways.

ShyMets · 07-12-2020 7:00pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

We had this conversation only a few days ago. You don't seem to understand the argument. Dublin need to be split because of the combination, nature scale and duration of unfair advantages they enjoy (funding, population, home pitch etc). Not just because they are winning.

You are pro-Dublin. I am just pro-Gaelic football.

Splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring there is still a viable competition they can compete in. It's one of the very few reforms you can say definitely helps all counties, including Dublin.

Not splitting Dublin kills the game at inter-county level.

No it does not. Spiting merely helps a small numbers of counties of which from you're posting history I believe you are from one.

You're agenda is to split Dublin so to benefit you're own county. Lets not pretend splitting Dublin does anything for the likes of Longford of Limerick.

jmayo · 07-12-2020 7:04pm

Did you smash it wrote: »

Strange, in his last post this poster claimed he was “talking to someone involved in a Kildare club” now it’s “A Kildare man/woman from Newbridge confirmed this earlier in this debate”

Both his/her statements above are untrue but I have never seen a poster who is so dishonest. He’s being caught out and called out for lies in previous posts and now is continuing with more dishonesty.

Trend carefully in any debate with this poster.

Ariel knows a man that knows a man.

Gilroy last night floated an idea that seems to be doing the rounds at the moment, about using grandfather rules much like soccer.

He talked about someone from Dublin playing for their parents counties of say Roscommon or kildare.

How come Dubs are warning about players moving between new Dublin intercounty teams, but never say a word about these type of players moving back to Dublin after it has been realised how good a job they are doing at say Roscommon or Kildare.

What happens to kids that are on periphery of underage Dublin development squad who decide to try their luck with Daddy or Mammies county for a while.
Then they develop well enough that the current Jim Gavin/Dessie Farrell wants them back.
All the development work done by Kildare, Roscommon, etc is down the drain.

One could imagine quite a few Grealish/Rice occurrences when the young fellows realise that the trek down the N4, N5 is not worth it when they can stay at home and win trophies.

BTW the whole proposal stinks of you can have "our handmedowns" about it.

Beechwoodspark · 07-12-2020 7:07pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Hurling should be considered as well (population alone was always ground for a split, even before the funding started, but I was previously only in favour of a two way split). Into how many teams can be debated as I'm genuinely unsure how much of the funding that has been unfairly pumped into them as opposed to the footballers.

But I find people just try to deflect and obfuscate during these discussions. Dublin need to be split into at least four teams because of the unfair advantages they enjoy. That's the bottom line. Other reforms to Gaelic Football at inter-county can also be considered but without the split of Dublin first, they will be irrelevant.

Fully agree. More and more people support the split of dublin. I would suggest into 4 also - they would still have ludicrous population advantages over and above every other county

And that’s before we even mention the “financial doping” that many in dublin don’t want discussed !

Fann Linn · 07-12-2020 7:10pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Fully agree. More and more people support the split of dublin. I would suggest into 4 also - they would still have ludicrous population advantages over and above every other county

And that’s before we even mention the “financial doping” that many in dublin don’t want discussed !

Don't mind me asking where was that poll conducted and have ye got the results?

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-12-2020 7:12pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Don't mind me asking where was that poll conducted and have ye got the results?

My wife would be happy with a split.

One less team for me to support, less time spent at matches etc.

mitchelsontour · 07-12-2020 7:17pm

I cannot claim credit for what is below as it came from another forum but it sums the current situation up.

"Imagine using your own money to more or less kill off competition in your own games? Must be the only organisation to ever do so"

gaffer91 · 07-12-2020 7:44pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Its all or nothing for me, both football and hurling.

If not then then it's going to be a disaster. It might well be anyways.

I agree that without a split it will be a disaster.

ShyMets wrote: »

No it does not. Spiting merely helps a small numbers of counties of which from you're posting history I believe you are from one.

You're agenda is to split Dublin so to benefit you're own county. Lets not pretend splitting Dublin does anything for the likes of Longford of Limerick.

It helps every county.

The inter-county game is currently dying. It's not cyclical. Dublin will continue to dominate endlessly given their unfair advantages over everyone else. This is obvious to basically everyone outside of Dublin. They have an endless supply of incredible footballers coming through, in part because of population and funding.

I don't have an agenda other than support for what is best for Gaelic Games. I would have no problem with Dublin's success if it came fairly but we all know that it does not.

People will stop watching and caring as Dublin go for 8, 9 and 10 in a row. It's already happening. Attendances were down pre-covid, much less hype year on year etc.

If we split Dublin into four we see off this crisis. The game becomes competitive again because one team isn't ludicrously unfairly advantaged in virtually every area above all others (although the four Dublin divisional sides will still benefit from advantages compared to regular counties). Interest won't wane across the country but will instead be revived.

So splitting Dublin absolutely helps all counties, including Longford, Limerick and even Dublin.

ArielAtom · 07-12-2020 7:48pm

threeball wrote: »

You're against professionalism as long as its everyone else's team. Its OK for yours though.

No one here is equating club success with having county players so not sure where that came from. Until 3yrs ago Corofin had only 3 players on the county team. Its a argument you made up in your own head.

The elephant in the room is the professionalism that exists in an amateur game as it stands. The funds are not there to roll that out to all counties. Not even close. Three choices
Dublin forego all funding
Dublin split
We all go pro with maybe 10 teams covering all the country.

It’s comical the professional angle you spin. The players on the Dublin panel are all either in education, employment or self employed. We lost arguably the best half back because of his commitment to work. But you trot out the professional angle if it makes you feel better.

Your last bit is comedy gold. Three choices😂

Cavan_King · 07-12-2020 7:51pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

It’s comical the professional angle you spin. The players on the Dublin panel are all either in education, employment or self employed. We lost arguably the best half back because of his commitment to work. But you trot out the professional angle if it makes you feel better.

Your last bit is comedy gold. Three choicesðŸ˜‚

Dublin don’t have professional players but they do have a professional county board which is something other counties do not have.

All counties should have the same.

The Leinster Championship is dead.

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