Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Boggles · 18-11-2020 08:35PM

awec wrote: »

No, incorrect.

You are only supposed to go out for essential reasons.

Ah, shopping is essential, no?

selectamatic · 18-11-2020 08:36PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I really agree with this, but in that document that wirelessdude posted earlier, it does outline that schools can play around with days as long as this is discussed beforehand. They could actually close earlier and come back earlier. I have a feeling though it was more about getting the Department of Education to take the responsibility for closing the schools so teachers could say "take it up with the DoE, they made the decision, we had no control over it"

Lillyfae wrote: »

If I could just draw your attention to Appendix B of the relevant circular posted by you :

Lillyfae wrote: »

Contingency arrangements in the event of unforeseen school closures
The parties have recognised that there is a need to include flexibility and to
provide for contingency arrangements within the standardised school year to deal with unforeseen school closures................If necessary, the school authority should review the school calendar with a view to identifying any available discretionary days that the school had planned to close that could be made available to make up the loss. In this regard, the school authority should take into account the need to provide adequate notice of any changes to the school calendar to pupils, parents and staff.:

Perhaps some contact with the Department of Education and Skills could be made by yourself, just to clarify your interpretation of their circular.

I'd be most interested in hearing of their response.

awec · 18-11-2020 08:36PM

Boggles wrote: »

Ah, shopping is essential, no?

No.

You have to be winding us up now.

Boggles · 18-11-2020 08:42PM

awec wrote: »

No.

You have to be winding us up now.

awec wrote: »

The current guidelines preclude shopping.

If you could link to the guidelines that back up your above statement I'd be grateful.

Lillyfae · 18-11-2020 09:04PM

selectamatic wrote: »

Perhaps some contact with the Department of Education and Skills could be made by yourself, just to clarify your interpretation of their circular.

I'd be most interested in hearing of their response.

This isn’t my interpretation, it’s what’s in the document.

wrote:

The parties have recognised that there is a need to include flexibility and to
provide for contingency arrangements within the standardised school year to deal with unforeseen school closures................If necessary, the school authority should review the school calendar with a view to identifying any available discretionary days that the school had planned to close that could be made available to make up the loss. In this regard, the school authority should take into account the need to provide adequate notice of any changes to the school calendar to pupils, parents and staff.:

What’s so difficult to understand? It’s outlined that in order to allow flexibility, days can be moved around as long as sufficient notice is given.

wirelessdude01 · 18-11-2020 09:11PM

selectamatic wrote: »

Perhaps some contact with the Department of Education and Skills could be made by yourself, just to clarify your interpretation of their circular.

I'd be most interested in hearing of their response.

Don't you just love how people who aren't in education can reimagine the circulars to fit their vision. All teachers know what this poster thinks isn't possible.

iamwhoiam · 18-11-2020 09:12PM

awec wrote: »

No.

You have to be winding us up now.

Not just now .

selectamatic · 18-11-2020 09:16PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

This isn’t my interpretation, it’s what’s in the document.

What’s so difficult to understand? It’s outlined that in order to allow flexibility, days can be moved around as long as sufficient notice is given.

No school that I'm aware of in the primary sector has ever just decided to change around days in the lead up to department set holidays (Christmas, Halloween & Easter). The exception of course is the flexibility of the date of the summer holidays which can be set at the discretion of the school once the required total number of days of the school year have been completed.

Therefore I would say yes it is your interpretation because it differs greatly to most if not all of the schools interpretation of the circular.

But I'm definitely open to correction hence I said that if you simply contact the Department of Education and Skills for clarification I'd be most interested in hearing their response.

delly · 18-11-2020 09:19PM

One point on the not missing education buzz and that is most classes, bar leaving or junior cert, do sweet FA for the week before the Christmas break.

Followup point for me is that my kids school is already finishing on the 18th, which I'm very happy about.

Lillyfae · 18-11-2020 09:21PM

selectamatic wrote: »

No school that I'm aware of in the primary sector has ever just decided to change around days in the lead up to department set holidays (Christmas, Halloween & Easter). The exception of course is the flexibility of the date of the summer holidays which can be set at the discretion of the school once the required total number of days of the school year have been completed.

Therefore I would say yes it is your interpretation because it differs greatly to most if not all of the schools interpretation of the circular.

But I'm definitely open to correction hence I said that if you simply contact the Department of Education and Skills for clarification I'd be most interested in hearing their response.

Just because the schools don’t or haven’t done something doesn’t mean they can’t. I didn’t interpret the document, I just read it. I put it there for you to read. It’s in black and white.

Edit to add:

delly wrote: »

Followup point for me is that my kids school is already finishing on the 18th, which I'm very happy about.

This school has done it.

wirelessdude01 · 18-11-2020 09:21PM

delly wrote: »

One point on the not missing education buzz and that is most classes, bar leaving or junior cert, do sweet FA for the week before the Christmas break.

Followup point for me is that my kids school is already finishing on the 18th, which I'm very happy about.

Is that primary or secondary?

Also when were ye given the school calendar for the year?

Icyseanfitz · 18-11-2020 09:22PM

awec wrote: »

No, incorrect.

You are only supposed to go out for essential reasons.

When you work in a building 5 days a week 7 hours a day with a thousand students in close contact to you, no proper ppe, no contact tracing insufficient sanitizer, and no social distancing one tends to forget that they are in lockdown.

giveitholly · 18-11-2020 09:24PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

When you work in a building 5 days a week 7 hours a day with a thousand students in close contact to you, no proper ppe, no contact tracing insufficient sanitizer, and no social distancing one tends to forget that they are in lockdown.

So all teachers have a thousand students in close contact with them?

wirelessdude01 · 18-11-2020 09:29PM

giveitholly wrote: »

So all teachers have a thousand students in close contact with them?

Average secondary teacher would have somewhere in the region of 150-185 students each day.

Lcy is an SNA if I'm not mistaken.

Icyseanfitz · 18-11-2020 09:30PM

giveitholly wrote: »

So all teachers have a thousand students in close contact with them?

In a lot of large post primary schools, yes

selectamatic · 18-11-2020 09:32PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Don't you just love how people who aren't in education can reimagine the circulars to fit their vision. All teachers know what this poster thinks isn't possible.

Opinions are great fun in these particular threads solid entertainment value to be had at times.

However it definitely wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for the Dept to leave a circular badly worded/open to interpretation. That said a principal would be in for a fun time if they decided to go looking for their own interpretation of the contents of various circulars and applying them as they saw fit to their own school :pac:

Lillyfae wrote: »

Just because the schools don’t or haven’t done something doesn’t mean they can’t. I didn’t interpret the document, I just read it. I put it there for you to read. It’s in black and white.

Edit to add:

This school has done it.

A school that could be secondary has some classes/years off. Very different to a whole school closure.

You posted it in black and white but also made your own clarifying statement.

You kinda need to back this up so I suggested contacting the Department for further clarification. If you don't want to fair enough but if your sure about something I'd see no harm in following through on it. And I'd be interested in hearing their response.

Lillyfae · 18-11-2020 09:35PM

selectamatic wrote: »

Opinions are great fun in these particular threads solid entertainment value to be had at times.

However it definitely wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for the Dept to leave a circular badly worded/open to interpretation. That said a principal would be in for a fun time if they decided to go looking for their own interpretation of the contents of various circulars and applying them as they saw fit to their own school :pac:

A school that could be secondary has some classes/years off. Very different to a whole school closure.

You posted it in black and white but also made your own clarifying statement.

You kinda need to back this up so I suggested contacting the Department for further clarification. If you don't want to fair enough but if your sure about something I'd see no harm in following through on it. And I'd be interested in hearing their response.

I don’t need clarification though. It’s perfectly clear to me. If you think it’s not clear wouldn’t you need the clarification?

iamwhoiam · 18-11-2020 09:36PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

In a lot of large post primary schools, yes

In close contact to 1000 pupils ? Close contact to the whole school ?

giveitholly · 18-11-2020 09:41PM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

In a lot of large post primary schools, yes

No secondary school I know of in my area has 1,000 students,now I know its prob different in the cities and especially Dublin but you are telling me that a teacher in one of those schools would be in close contact with every student?

selectamatic · 18-11-2020 09:43PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I don’t need clarification though. It’s perfectly clear to me. If you think it’s not clear wouldn’t you need the clarification?

No if you are asserting that the department mean this or that then you'll have to clarify you're correct. If not I'll have to assume you're wrong. I'd be happy for you to be proven correct though.

Icyseanfitz · 18-11-2020 09:45PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

In close contact to 1000 pupils ? Close contact to the whole school ?

I would be in direct close contact with 180 students a day through my classes, i would then be in close contact with a large number of either the juniors or seniors for supervision in the tight hallways for 50 minutes (this is worse with bad weather) then in between classes when all students are out mixing together in tight hallways while im trying to get to my next class. The students themselves are interacting with the other students at lunch (without masks outside) or through shared equipment (which isn't cleaned anymore as apparently hand sanitizer is enough) or when all the students are mixed into their choice classes) creating indirect contact to me through the students i work with. Im an SNA by the way, so i work in very close contact with most students in a class while floating around the class.

Bananaleaf · 18-11-2020 09:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Did I hear the TUI guy correctly on Virgin Media news there, ''teachers are tired'' is what he said. What sympathy I had for teachers gone when I heard that scutter.

Yeah you did hear him right. But, they've gone out on their own demanding this, they haven't asked their members.

It's a shame that you have lost all empathy (don't think teachers are looking for sympathy) for teachers because of something they didn't do.

This article admits that they ran with this idea without asking their members. If you listen back to the show, it's even more incredible to hear him say it. I'm actually kind of impressed that they admitted it.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/tui-admits-plan-for-early-christmas-holidays-divisive-1107729

Lillyfae · 18-11-2020 09:54PM

selectamatic wrote: »

No if you are asserting that the department mean this or that then you'll have to clarify you're correct. If not I'll have to assume you're wrong. I'd be happy for you to be proven correct though.

I’m not asserting, they wrote the document and I quoted it. What is open to interpretation in the document I quoted?

Bananaleaf · 18-11-2020 09:54PM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Do you think the TUI are trying to distract from the numbers not going down? Why would they do that?

My own theory on this is that the TUI want to generate as much public hatred for teachers as they possibly can.

They do not want pay parity. If the public ever got behind teachers in fighting for that, my understanding from a TUI pensions talk I once went to is that the practicalities of how it would work would have financial consequences for their pensions. Am willing to be corrected on this, my understanding of finances is dodgy at the best of times but this was what was implied and I think I might still have the notes on this talk somewhere if I look for them.

I came away from that talk very suspicious about how they do their dealings and who they are really in it for.

Having said all that, whenever I have asked for union guidance (not often) they have been wrong in the advice they gave me. So it could just be that they are misinformed (to use the nice word) and it's all innocent incompetence rather than anything sinister

Lillyfae · 18-11-2020 09:57PM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

My own theory on this is that the TUI want to generate as much public hatred for teachers as they possibly can.

They do not want pay parity. If the public ever got behind teachers in fighting for that, my understanding from a TUI pensions talk I once went to is that the practicalities of how it would work would have financial consequences for their pensions. Am willing to be corrected on this, my understanding of finances is dodgy at the best of times but this was what was implied and I think I might still have the notes on this talk somewhere if I look for them.

I came away from that talk very suspicious about how they do their dealings and who they are really in it for.

Having said all that, whenever I have asked for union guidance (not often) they have been wrong in the advice they gave me. So it could just be that they are misinformed (to use the nice word) and it's all innocent incompetence rather than anything sinister

That’s pretty shocking to be fair. But who is electing these people??

18-11-2020 10:03PM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yeah you did hear him right. But, they've gone out on their own demanding this, they haven't asked their members.

It's a shame that you have lost all empathy (don't think teachers are looking for sympathy) for teachers because of something they didn't do.

This article admits that they ran with this idea without asking their members. If you listen back to the show, it's even more incredible to hear him say it. I'm actually kind of impressed that they admitted it.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/tui-admits-plan-for-early-christmas-holidays-divisive-1107729

Absolutely shocking, and I take back what I said as I understood him to be at least speaking with some kind of mandate which clearly isn't the case.

Bananaleaf · 18-11-2020 10:04PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

That’s pretty shocking to be fair. But who is electing these people??

Well, teachers are. But a lot of the area representatives are great. It's the bad eggs right up at the top that seem to be the problem.

I'm only in teaching 15years, so some there longer might know better. But to me, it feels a bit like politics to be honest, doesn't seem to matter who you vote for. Nothing changes. Everything stays the same

meeeeh · 18-11-2020 10:07PM

This is not some conspiracy created by TUI. It was just a knee jerk reaction to what would I assume were requests by some members. Aodhan O'Riordan ran with it and I doubt he would want to weaken the unions.

In general I think that work from home and less in person meetings mean that decisions or suggestions are often not trashed out properly. The government had a few hiccups around that too.

selectamatic · 18-11-2020 10:07PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I’m not asserting, they wrote the document and I quoted it. What is open to interpretation in the document I quoted?

Your interpretation of how unforseen school closures can be applied to the school year and then made up at a later date is different to the majorities interpretation. But shur look if you don't want to seek clarification from the department we'll just have to admit we're at an impasse.

As Bill would say we'll leave it there so.

mirrorwall14 · 18-11-2020 11:09PM

As a TUI member I’m absolutely horrified at the way this has been handled considering there is no mandate for it and the media interviews were absolutely appalling.

However as a parent we had already agreed to pull our son from primary school on the 18th in preparation for Christmas in the hope that he will be less likely to infect family. I’m very high risk and working from home so with him out of school that removes our highest infection risk. I know many parents have already made similar plans

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Comments