Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

31-10-2020 11:11AM

manniot2 wrote: »

The sad reality is that a large cohort don’t care. Many are unaffected and many others don’t understand.

My parents are mid 60s, retired and massively in favour of lockdown. No matter what I tell them about the adverse impacts, they don’t want to know.

I agree with this, its all a matter of perspective. People look at the restrictions from their viewpoint only (and maybe that's human nature, but its also selfish).
My sister and husband both retired on good pensions and live in a remote part of of the country. They have been zealots of the toughest restrictions from the beginning. They didn't go once to a supermarket until June (from March!!). They got everything delivered and didn't go beyond their 2km even though they live on the side of a mountain. That was it.

I worked throughout Covid (essential) in an office with other people. It was worrying for about a day or two then we all just got on with it. Proper procedures and precautions used and not one person in our building got Covid. Going out to work lessened the hysteria and fear around Covid, it desensitized us and was far healthier than sitting at home with the radio on putting the fear of God into us!

I have 2 adult kids who have been affected by Covid in their lives, relationship breakups, trying to rent somewhere else to live, working from home for 8 months in a bedroom etc . Students locked up in bedrooms doing all their lectures online, or in an expensive rented accommodation that cost thousands near college, not allowed home for mid-term, extremely isolated..... just a few months ago they were still kids in school! Suddenly they're meant to be able to deal with isolation like adults, why? They're not adults, they don't yet have those skills. They are suffering as much as anyone! My mother who is 86 in a nursing home is going downhill since Covid started, suffering too from lack of human contact and has no visits anymore. She has said she would prefer to see us and take the risk than live the rest of her life alone in her bedroom in the nursing home.

I have friends who are self employed trying to change their set up time after time to make their little coffee shop safe and compliant, opening up only to be shut again, letting staff go , doing take-away in Winter in Ireland is tough and wont pay the bills........... I can now hear the desperation in their voices.

There is a HUGE HUMAN cost to this and its wrong to just look at it from one perspective! Its affecting everyone. I am sick of of the blame, the finger pointing, the attitude that its always someone else's fault and other people "aren't doing enough"! We were encouraged by our Government to "staycation" this year, to shop local, to eat local, there was even a tax break if you did. Suddenly its our fault that Covid spread as "everyone was on their holidays in Kerry and Connemara" .... this is exactly what people were asked to do!

If Tony Holohan ONCE came on to the News and said "I cannot thank people enough for everything they have done so far" it would help. He has NEVER addressed the public in anything other than derogatory tones and admonishment, not a glimmer of hope, even in the Summer. Yet he is lauded on The Late Late Show like some kind of celebrity?

(on a financial level its beyond comprehension how we are going to repay the amount we have borrowed. What are our future budgets every October going to be like......more austerity to repay all this?? HSE have just received the highest budget EVER in the history of the state yet we don't even have contact tracing set up and no increase in ICU beds :eek:)

Lundstram · 31-10-2020 11:13AM

I see Harris, Leo et al bragging that we are only one of four countries to see a drop in the 7 day rates of infection. Big fcuking deal, we have the harshest restrictions in Europe and have had for a long time.

Self serving nonsense yet again while people struggle to pay bills, struggle to manage their lonliness, people missing their famililes. Our economy is sinking, our debt is rising, tax intake on the floor yet here we have the boys bragging on Twitter.

Sickening stuff.

MelbourneMan · 31-10-2020 11:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If Tony Holohan ONCE came on to the News and said "I cannot thank people enough for everything they have done so far" it would help.

Does this really make sense, when anything people do, and they are doing a lot of positive things certainly, they are doing for themselves? They are not doing FOR Dr Holohan, and so he has no reason to be thanking people.

He is a public servant, and so has a responsibility to do his job as tasked for the greater good of the country. This, he, and all the members of NPHET committee are doing. Surely he and they are the ones due thanks from the Irish people ?
Please consider this.

Both the negative tone towards him, and the criticism that people are not being thanked for doing what is to their own good and health, is somewhat unreasonable.

moonage · 31-10-2020 11:28AM

Deleted User wrote: »

2) The media are not bothering with journalism anymore. They just drip feed us constant negativity and fear mongering. Sadly the Irish people lap it all up. Anyone that disagrees is an anti masker or right wing lunatic.

Why are you putting anti-maskers and right-wing extremists in the same category?

I'm very critical of the government's overall response to the virus, including their introduction of mandatory masks in the middle of summer when numbers were low.

I don't regard anti-(mandatory)-masker as a term of abuse.

normanoffside · 31-10-2020 11:32AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Both the negative tone towards him, and the criticism that people are not being thanked for doing what is to their own good and health, is somewhat unreasonable.

Tony, as you well know Covid will have very little effect on the vast majority of people.
What young and middle-aged people are doing is not for the good of their own health, rather they are suffering real life consequences for the apparent good of others (mostly NPHET who want to beat this thing at all costs).

Penfailed · 31-10-2020 11:32AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you can’t provide an end date for the restrictions, it is fair to say they are endless as of this moment in time.

Of course they will technically end at some point. The planet will too. And all of us will die. 99.99% won’t be from or with Covid as well.

That's some mental gymnastics right there. In one sentence you say that 'it's fair to say they are endless' and in the very next sentence 'they will technically end at some point'...so, not endless then.

Penfailed · 31-10-2020 11:34AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I won’t name the poster as I was cautioned previously for doing so. But there is a poster on here who believes the solution to our below par health system is imposing permanent restrictions on nightlife and curfews etc. He has actually posted in just the last few pages. And he got quite a few thumbs up for suggesting it.

What's to stop you quoting it? I don't remember it and I CBA trawling through pages and pages to find it.

weldoninhio · 31-10-2020 11:41AM

Dickie10 wrote: »

do we have a list of countries we can go to on green list anymore? you would imagine people will be gone minute xmas holidays come

It came out in the Ryanair/Aer Lingus court case that you can travel to any country you like, with zero restrictions.

SeaBreezes · 31-10-2020 11:45AM

normanoffside wrote: »

Tony, as you well know Covid will have very little effect on the vast majority of people.
What young and middle-aged people are doing is not for the good of their own health, rather they are suffering real life consequences for the apparent good of others (mostly NPHET who want to beat this thing at all costs).

Actually, it is for their health too.
Even if they have not educated themselves enough to know this.

A virus that damages Tcells, each time will be progressively worse every infection.
Many strains of the virus and the more people infected, allows the virus a larger resevoir to mutate. So far it hasnt escaped the vaccine. So far.

We know it affects kidneys, lungs and heart. We know it reduces cognitive ability, we know it reduces sperm count by 50% in moderate cases. We know you can get 2 or more strains at once. We know it causes blood clots.

Honestly, what fascinates me is that people are acting like WE HAVE A CHOICE in regards lockdown. Without zero covid, there is no choice.

Good god, look at netherlands, poor Health minister there CRYING at state of people in hospitals at the mo.

And we havent even mentioned long haul covid. WHO figures 10-30% affected? Disabling people for MONTHs after with unexplained nerve pain, deep fatigue?

(I know personally one previous healthy, now seeing a pain specialist to manage nerve pain after a week of covid in march, that was mild)

Its a complete **** show, but governments do not lockdown economies for the craic. They do it because the alternative is much much worse.

RobitTV · 31-10-2020 11:45AM

Come on everyone, repeat after me:

'The next 10 days are crucial'
'The next 10 days are crucial'
'The next 10 days are crucial'

weldoninhio · 31-10-2020 11:53AM

john4321 wrote: »

Back to my question Ill ask again can you provide a single media outlet or poster who advocates endless restrictions?

I don't see it mentioned it in the Journal article from May you linked and goes against the narrative of the other poster who said:

"Tony Holohan.
There is no hope coming from him, none at all

The Irish government and every media outlet that backed their “living with Covid” plan. Where’s the end date on that? Even Level 1 has restrictions.

JRant · 31-10-2020 11:54AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Does this really make sense, when anything people do, and they are doing a lot of positive things certainly, they are doing for themselves? They are not doing FOR Dr Holohan, and so he has no reason to be thanking people.

He is a public servant, and so has a responsibility to do his job as tasked for the greater good of the country. This, he, and all the members of NPHET committee are doing. Surely he and they are the ones due thanks from the Irish people ?
Please consider this.

Both the negative tone towards him, and the criticism that people are not being thanked for doing what is to their own good and health, is somewhat unreasonable.

His remit is CMO, he has zero responsibility for the greater good. Health matters are where his job begins and ends. NPHET is a basket case set up by Leo's department when it should have been the responsibility of the national emergency council. They are also made up of, but not exclusively, a number of senior HSE members. The same failures who preside over a bloated mess that has failed to deliver time and time again for the end user.

I wouldn't want thanks from him or NPHET, I would like to see them held accountable for their actions. The first of which was a complete failure in the nursing homes.

Penfailed · 31-10-2020 11:56AM

RobitTV wrote: »

Come on everyone, repeat after me:

'The next 10 days are crucial'
'The next 10 days are crucial'
'The next 10 days are crucial'

This ^^^ 'joke' has been battered to death in this thread.

Dr. Bre · 31-10-2020 11:58AM

Everyday is crucial in the battle v covid 19

FintanMcluskey · 31-10-2020 12:07PM

manniot2 wrote: »

The sad reality is that a large cohort don’t care. Many are unaffected and many others don’t understand.

My parents are mid 60s, retired and massively in favour of lockdown. No matter what I tell them about the adverse impacts, they don’t want to know.

I see this attitude a lot on my travels.

Can usually initiate the way a conversation will go with those most unaffected by the restrictions.

A lot of those retired are rubbing their hands at the thoughts of not having to contribute to the repayment of the borrowing and are content to let let the next generations do so.

_Kaiser_ · 31-10-2020 12:18PM

Penfailed wrote: »

This ^^^ 'joke' has been battered to death in this thread.

If only it WAS a joke Pen

Unfortunately it's the mantra being used in Holohan's one man crusade to protect the HSE and likely biased by his unfortunate situation at home. The guy should never have returned to the job. It's clear from his demand that we go to Level 5 immediately that he's lost any sort of objectivity.

But there's plenty of blame to go around. We have Micheal Martin whose only goal was to be Taoiseach so he wouldn't be the FF leader who wasn't - but who had no plan or agenda for what he'd do when he got there.
Leo Vardakar - a man obsessed with spin and his personal profile and who'll latch onto anything he thinks might boost it, but again has no actual ideology or position on anything beyond that.
Then, lest we forget (because it's very easy to do!) we have Eamon Ryan - a guy so divorced from reality and absent (save for the occasional soundbite from him on his bike at the gates to the Dail) that he might as well be asleep (again!)

And on top of all that is a sizeable percentage of citizens who are doing quite well from all of this - living at home and saving a fortune in commuting and childcare costs, whose wages haven't been affected, who are settled in their family and small social circles, and who are quite happy to pontificate and finger-wag at those who "aren't doing their part" (the other threads are full of them - particularly the masks one).

It's no wonder then that this country has stumbled along through 8 months of restrictions with no real plan or end-goal... latching onto what is happening elsewhere in Europe for ideas or precedents, and where as with everything else there's a shadow of protecting incompetence, rejection of accountability, and me-feinism clouding the whole thing.

We won't come out of the restrictions and lockdowns until "someone else" does or until the money runs out - whatever happens first. It certainly won't be because of decisive leadership, objective and comprehensive consideration of the facts and bigger picture. These are things that we just don't DO in Ireland.

mikekerry · 31-10-2020 12:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with this, its all a matter of perspective. People look at the restrictions from their viewpoint only (and maybe that's human nature, but its also selfish).
My sister and husband both retired on good pensions and live in a remote part of of the country. They have been zealots of the toughest restrictions from the beginning. They didn't go once to a supermarket until June (from March!!). They got everything delivered and didn't go beyond their 2km even though they live on the side of a mountain. That was it.

I worked throughout Covid (essential) in an office with other people. It was worrying for about a day or two then we all just got on with it. Proper procedures and precautions used and not one person in our building got Covid. Going out to work lessened the hysteria and fear around Covid, it desensitized us and was far healthier than sitting at home with the radio on putting the fear of God into us!

I have 2 adult kids who have been affected by Covid in their lives, relationship breakups, trying to rent somewhere else to live, working from home for 8 months in a bedroom etc . Students locked up in bedrooms doing all their lectures online, or in an expensive rented accommodation that cost thousands near college, not allowed home for mid-term, extremely isolated..... just a few months ago they were still kids in school! Suddenly they're meant to be able to deal with isolation like adults, why? They're not adults, they don't yet have those skills. They are suffering as much as anyone! My mother who is 86 in a nursing home is going downhill since Covid started, suffering too from lack of human contact and has no visits anymore. She has said she would prefer to see us and take the risk than live the rest of her life alone in her bedroom in the nursing home.

I have friends who are self employed trying to change their set up time after time to make their little coffee shop safe and compliant, opening up only to be shut again, letting staff go , doing take-away in Winter in Ireland is tough and wont pay the bills........... I can now hear the desperation in their voices.

There is a HUGE HUMAN cost to this and its wrong to just look at it from one perspective! Its affecting everyone. I am sick of of the blame, the finger pointing, the attitude that its always someone else's fault and other people "aren't doing enough"! We were encouraged by our Government to "staycation" this year, to shop local, to eat local, there was even a tax break if you did. Suddenly its our fault that Covid spread as "everyone was on their holidays in Kerry and Connemara" .... this is exactly what people were asked to do!

If Tony Holohan ONCE came on to the News and said "I cannot thank people enough for everything they have done so far" it would help. He has NEVER addressed the public in anything other than derogatory tones and admonishment, not a glimmer of hope, even in the Summer. Yet he is lauded on The Late Late Show like some kind of celebrity?

(on a financial level its beyond comprehension how we are going to repay the amount we have borrowed. What are our future budgets every October going to be like......more austerity to repay all this?? HSE have just received the highest budget EVER in the history of the state yet we don't even have contact tracing set up and no increase in ICU beds :eek:)

Great Post the only thing I disagree with I do not want a thank you from Tony hoolahan I just want him out the door or up before a tribunal

facehugger99 · 31-10-2020 12:40PM

Lundstram wrote: »

I see Harris, Leo et al bragging that we are only one of four countries to see a drop in the 7 day rates of infection. Big fcuking deal, we have the harshest restrictions in Europe and have had for a long time.

Self serving nonsense yet again while people struggle to pay bills, struggle to manage their lonliness, people missing their famililes. Our economy is sinking, our debt is rising, tax intake on the floor yet here we have the boys bragging on Twitter.

Sickening stuff.

The RTE website headline is nauseating - proclaiming Ireland as one of only 4 countries with a drop in the 7-day average beside a picture of St. Tony for us all to worship.

It's only taken billions of borrowed money, putting hundreds of thousands onto the PUP payment and closing down thousands of viable businesses to achieve this great 'victory' - but sure when everything is being viewed through the prism of covid, what do these little details matter.

What happens to the 7-day average when the restrictions are lifted? Even the slow lads in the class must be starting to figure this out by now.

walus · 31-10-2020 01:09PM

RobitTV wrote: »

Come on everyone, repeat after me:

'The next 10 days are crucial'
'The next 10 days are crucial'
'The next 10 days are crucial'

I would rephrase this:
The next 10 minutes are crucial
The next 10 days are crucial
The next 10 months are crucial
The next 10 ...

That is more reflective of the government strategy to this.

funnydoggy · 31-10-2020 01:14PM

The next 10 lockdowns are crucial

31-10-2020 01:24PM

Penfailed wrote: »

That's some mental gymnastics right there. In one sentence you say that 'it's fair to say they are endless' and in the very next sentence 'they will technically end at some point'...so, not endless then.

Ok, perhaps endless is the wrong word.
But there is certainly no end date for the restrictions. And it’s difficult to see them ending in 2021.

Penfailed · 31-10-2020 01:32PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok, perhaps endless is the wrong word.
But there is certainly no end date for the restrictions. And it’s difficult to see them ending in 2021.

Totally agree. It's a shítshow.

charlie14 · 31-10-2020 01:38PM

patnor1011 wrote: »

Pretty much everything.
It is pretty naive to think that lockdowns which are nothing but lockdown of the economy can stop or even slow down the spread. And it is clear now that so eagerly awaited vaccines are not going to achieve the same too.
Pretty much time people realize that and move on.

Everything ?
There is nothing in the Swedish strategy that has worked let alone "everything"

Naturally acquired herd immunity is a myth. Even the main architect of their strategy,Tegnell has finally admitted that. Even though he held out longer than he should have imo and thus exacerbated the situation.
Protecting their vulnerable has been a disaster with many multiples of deaths compared to their Scandinavian neighbours. The fact that we did no better is no excuse either.
No lockdown has not helped their economy as their GDP and the real level of unemployment shows.
Those three areas were "everything" with the Swedish strategy and none has worked.

Lockdown is about slowing the spread of the virus. Something that five regions in Sweden comprising two thirds of their population have now begun using as soon as they had the power to make decisions for their own regions.

You, me or the dog next door has no clue what these vaccine can or cannot achieve until we see the results of the independently reviewed safety and efficacy data by authorities such as the European Medicines Agency.
Tegnell himself has said their is no hope of handling the spread without a vaccine. Something again he was a bit slow to catch up on. Months ago Swedish authorities did a side deal with AstraZeneca, an Anglo/Swedish company, for 6 million doses with an option on 2 million more,and are in negotiations to purchase a further 10 million from others.
Sweden has already prioritised who will receive these and intend to begin vaccination early next year.

FintanMcluskey · 31-10-2020 01:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, perhaps endless is the wrong word.
But there is certainly no end date for the restrictions. And it’s difficult to see them ending in 2021.

The restrictions end when the masks are removed and we can stand beside each other without the assumption that healthy people are sick.

It’s a long way off

MelbourneMan · 31-10-2020 01:44PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

The RTE website headline is nauseating - proclaiming Ireland as one of only 4 countries with a drop in the 7-day average

Hi there. I am truly perplexed at your read of this situation. How can such positive news be nauseating - except for some of the less scrupulous headline writers grasping a shock headline opportunity?

There is no interpretation of this other than that it is a very good trend, and by international comparison shows the excellent work, judgement, and technical skill of our specialists guiding the country through this crisis.

And spare me the knee jerk criticism of the HSE, NPHET, and the government, that seems to pass for the norm here, and that those viewing their handling of the situation in an objective way and recognising the high standard they are achieving, as cranks or contrarians.
It is a rather tired dismissal at this stage, and starting to anger me slightly.

We need the country to pull together and help each other. It is not a time for political sniping, old gripes or vendetta about the running of the health service, or the even more irrational attitude of being against 'the man' as Americans put it.

normanoffside · 31-10-2020 01:47PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Everything ?
There is nothing in the Swedish strategy that has worked let alone "everything"

Naturally acquired herd immunity is a myth. Even the main architect of their strategy,Tegnell has finally admitted that. Even though he held out longer than he should have imo and thus exacerbated the situation.

Herd Immunity is not the Swedish strategy.
It's about getting on with life as best as possible while living alongside the virus.

They've done pretty well.

FintanMcluskey · 31-10-2020 01:53PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Everything ?
There is nothing in the Swedish strategy that has worked let alone "everything"

Naturally acquired herd immunity is a myth. Even the main architect of their strategy,Tegnell has finally admitted that. Even though he held out longer than he should have imo and thus exacerbated the situation.
Protecting their vulnerable has been a disaster with many multiples of deaths compared to their Scandinavian neighbours. The fact that we did no better is no excuse either.
No lockdown has not helped their economy as their GDP and the real level of unemployment shows.
Those three areas were "everything" with the Swedish strategy and none has worked.

Lockdown is about slowing the spread of the virus. Something that five regions in Sweden comprising two thirds of their population have now begun using as soon as they had the power to make decisions for their own regions.

You, me or the dog next door has no clue what these vaccine can or cannot achieve until we see the results of the independently reviewed safety and efficacy data by authorities such as the European Medicines Agency.
Tegnell himself has said their is no hope of handling the spread without a vaccine. Something again he was a bit slow to catch up on. Months ago Swedish authorities did a side deal with AstraZeneca, an Anglo/Swedish company, for 6 million doses with an option on 2 million more,and are in negotiations to purchase a further 10 million from others.
Sweden has already prioritised who will receive these and intend to begin vaccination early next year.

Its frustrating to hear the term lockdown used for regions in Sweden where they have essentially implemented what Ireland considered level 2 restrictions.

The Swedes have a long term approach to Covid, the less suppression on citizens the better.

Of course you underestimate the effects of what suppression is doing and going to cause, but it seems Sweden has really annoyed you to the point that the argument doesn’t really make any sense and you continue to ignore the fact that Sweden did what they were advised to and doubled ICU capacity for the benefit of not suppressing its citizens.

Ireland needs to implement the Swedish plan fairly fast

charlie14 · 31-10-2020 01:53PM

Captain_Crash wrote: »

You mean this Uppsala, the one where despite tougher restrictions everything is still open and it’s up to individual people to decide what’s best for them??

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/sweden-coronavirus-local-lockdown-uppsala/amp/

The very same. The one that has been now been joined by another four regions that make up 6.2 million of the population with local lockdowns. Something many Swedish supporters were very adamant we would never see anywhere in Sweden when glorifying the Swedish strategy.

Very much like ourselves up until recently those five regions have under Swedish law no power to enforce those restrictions. Sweden are even in a worse position in that regard than we were. There justice minister recently admitted when examining how restrictions could be legally enforced that due to their constitution it would take until Summer 2021 to change that

funnydoggy · 31-10-2020 01:54PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hi there. I am truly perplexed at your read of this situation. How can such positive news be nauseating - except for some of the less scrupulous headline writers grasping a shock headline opportunity?

There is no interpretation of this other than that it is a very good trend, and by international comparison shows the excellent work, judgement, and technical skill of our specialists guiding the country through this crisis.

And spare me the knee jerk criticism of the HSE, NPHET, and the government, that seems to pass for the norm here, and that those viewing their handling of the situation in an objective way and recognising the high standard they are achieving, as cranks or contrarians.
It is a rather tired dismissal at this stage, and starting to anger me slightly.

We need the country to pull together and help each other. It is not a time for political sniping, old gripes or vendetta about the running of the health service, or the even more irrational attitude of being against 'the man' as Americans put it.

Don't Chute! · 31-10-2020 01:58PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hi there. I am truly perplexed at your read of this situation. How can such positive news be nauseating - except for some of the less scrupulous headline writers grasping a shock headline opportunity?

There is no interpretation of this other than that it is a very good trend, and by international comparison shows the excellent work, judgement, and technical skill of our specialists guiding the country through this crisis.

And spare me the knee jerk criticism of the HSE, NPHET, and the government, that seems to pass for the norm here, and that those viewing their handling of the situation in an objective way and recognising the high standard they are achieving, as cranks or contrarians.
It is a rather tired dismissal at this stage, and starting to anger me slightly.

We need the country to pull together and help each other. It is not a time for political sniping, old gripes or vendetta about the running of the health service, or the even more irrational attitude of being against 'the man' as Americans put it.

Hello, hi there. You are completely misunderstanding his post. Goodbye now!

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings