Three dead as woman beheaded in France

Wibbs wrote: »

I would not start shouting about oppression or whatever and complaining it's not Irish/European enough. I chose to live there. Again that goes for any culture or country that differs from my own. When in Rome... Well don't piss off the Romans, call their values into question and publicly decapitate pensioners going to pray.

Yes, if you chose to live there you follow their oppressive system, unfortunately. But we live in a different system that allows people to influence our culture and politics.

Women, Jews, atheists, blacks, and people from the LGBTQ movement didn't respect the dominant culture and its conservative values, yet they have managed to change it and redefine our society - which they were entitled to do so. They were accused of destroying all the values of the west and its culture. They pissed off a lot of people along the way. Now that we have reached your personal "sweet spot" nobody else is allowed to go any further. Once you shape society to your liking and become the status quo then suddenly nobody else is allowed to challenge your newfound hegemony. You selfishly get to pick and choose who gets to participate in shaping our "values" in this democracy.

Wibbs wrote: »

When the fundamental cornerstone of European culture that is freedom of expression no matter what(and daft cartoons are in that mix), a freedom that many millions within a long lifetime ago fought and died face down in the mud for is being threatened by a proportion of any demographic living among us with external influences backing them, that is not the time to start capitulating.

There are obviously limits to freedom of expression and the purpose of it is taken into account. Agitating people shouldn't count. Are you allowed to mock people in schools? Like what they wear? (that's a choice)

And what about this fantastic critic of Muslims through freedom of expression by the right-wing!
A pig's head was hung from one headstone in France's WWI cemetery for 148 Muslim graves
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7333344.stm

Additionally, your passionate example of people dying for enlightenment values doesn't really hold true. If they knew what values we hold now (Equality - women & LGBTA and Diversity and Multiculturalisms), they would probably put down their guns and join the enemy. Almost all of them would be considered bigoted by today's standards so let's not sugar coat the past and pretend they always hand the same shared value and racism didn't exist.

There are many European people that are not fond of our so-called shared "enlightenment values" and do not subscribe to them on both the left and the right. Many disagree also with Individualism which is also sold to us as a common value. And not everybody is obsessed with material progress. It just so happens that some neoliberals with lots of capital managed to shape our values towards those ideas. So don't worry about Muslims changing "our" values when plenty of native Europeans want to do so as well and all have different visions for the future. You don't own a monopoly on "Our" values. And we have changed our values many times throughout history and will continue to do so.

Wibbs wrote: »

So like I said before; on the one hand you do seem to agree with me that multicultural societies don't actually work too well and some demographics will never quite fit in and we should keep them at a distance? Oh and of course be real careful about winding them up.

Limit the numbers of new non legal migrants coming in. Any new migrants that we do accept that commit crimes get deported. No debate. No years of appeals. Ruthlessly root out ringleaders and firebrands and hit them hard and often. Seriously limit the financial aid from overseas to such groups.

You seem to focus on all the newcomers but what about all the 4 million Muslims that are already in France and most are citizens already.

Fit into whos standard? You can give extreme examples but what about the Muslims who are here already in Europe who want to practice their "non-violent" traditions and promote their values to attract new members like any other religious group. I feel this is more to do with atheists feeling like they may lose their influence to shape society to becoming more atheistic as they generally have the same gripe with Christians.

Ruthless policing hasn't worked out for the Black community either and there's a high chance innocent Muslims will get caught up in this like Guantanamo bay.

I mean clamp down on Erdogan, but don't drag innocent people into this.

Wibbs wrote: »

Can't recall too many Catholics getting murderous over it. Jews have an easier time in that sense, but again they don't exactly number among their community too many criminals and murderers, or calls for Irish cultural change. Indeed down the decades and centuries they've contributed to Irish culture.

I don't think history is as clean as you describe it. Ireland has had conflicts between Protestants and Catholics for cultural supremacy that has stretched back awhile.

Not to mention, in America you had many gangs of Europeans Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc... who fought among each other, and after a while, it settled down each having places of their own culturally - little Italy, Chinatown, etc... But it was none the less a bloody history to get there.

Jews on the other hand have remained relatively non-existent for much of Ireland's history with the Jewish population reaching around 5,500 in the 1940s.

Technically, Jews have played a role in shaping our modern culture. Many Jewish thinkers have worked on the promotion of human rights for women, blacks, and the LGBTA community, and many other minority groups probably influenced by their own experiences. The promotion of multiculturalism, denazification, and the fight against racism in all its forms by also establishing many organizations across Europe and the USA. So they have made calls for Irish "mostly European" cultural change. And much of their efforts wouldn't be appreciated by the Irish of the past. And the right-wing in Europe and America seem to have a problem with Jews promoting these values like human rights :rolleyes:

ROME
People tend to speculate a lot about the collapse of the Roman Empire. The right-wing would assert that it was women's involvement into politics that lead to the collapse of the Empire.

This speculation is further complicated by the fact that the roman empire broke up into two parts. Where the Byzantine empire continued to the east after the western empire collapsed.

Some could argue that it was the Romans xenophobia and maltreatment of foreigner groups like the Goths for example that lead to the collapse of Rome. Where they made the Goth trade their sons into slavery for dog meat
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Roman_History_of_Ammianus_Marcellinus.djvu/599

Maybe it was all the bad decisions of the Roman leadership the lead to their own downfall!

I also don't think we should consider ourselves as the Roman Empire giving way to an imperialist mindset where we feel entitled to invade and capture foreign lands.

Amish
I don't remember the imperial west being involved in a geopolitical conflict with the Amish including airstrikes and the thief of resources that has to lead to a major humanitarian crisis in their home country. All this exists in a larger context.

I think this discussion should probably be moved into the Multicultural thread and continued there

Things this thread has blamed, to avoid blaming the obvious culprit:
Cartoonists
Catholics
Christians
Organised religion in general
Lack of education
Poverty
The far-right
Psychopathy
Mass shooters in the US
Colonialism
The IRA
Secularism
Toxic masculinity
Videogames
The UFC
Traumatised refugees
Western intervention in the Middle East
Israelis
Jewish people

It’s high time European leaders came out and said “this is the way society is in France etc. If you don’t like it then you are free to leave.” I think people might have more respect for them then.

Danzy wrote: »

The left will despise them for saying that and the Islamic faithful won't care.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be said and acted on.

I am left/centre left leaning but I think it needs to be said at an official level. Pay for their flights if they want.

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

For some reason muslims hate atheists way way more than they hate Christians or any other religion. Not sure why.

I'd say its because they don't have an imaginary god to believe in but what if they believe in the tooth fairy and go around ripping teeth out of peoples heads. Would that be considered blasphemy?

deBeauvoir wrote: »

Women, Jews, atheists, blacks, and people from the LGBTQ movement didn't respect the dominant culture and its conservative values, yet they have managed to change it and redefine our society - which they were entitled to do so.

So what you're really saying is if I go into your house while you're not around its now my house?

boardise wrote: »

The fact that J Stalin trained to be a priest doesn't preclude the possibility that he changed his mind in later life. Just saying.
Likewise, as is well attested ,many people emerge from a Catholic upbringing in a state of lapsed practice and general apathy ..they are Catholic in name only . The key activities of their life is not driven by Catholic doctrine -which they might struggle to articulate or understand.

While this may be true, there is no record of Stalin ever claiming an atheism. There have been attempts to portray him as such throughout the years and the Communist Party was interested in the complete separation of Church and State. But Stalin, himself, never made any pronouncement about a non-belief.

That doesn't mean that he was on his knees praying to a God every Sunday.

I think it would be fair to say that both men, Hitler and Stalin, could be called "lapsed" and to a certain degree agnostic. But that's not the same as atheist.

Anyway, that's enough off topic yap from me.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

why is it no one has an issue with atheists coming here
or buddhists ?
no one has an issue with the society of friends (quakers)

why is it always the muslims ?
But mention this and they think they are immune to criticism.

The saddest part are the "woke" women fighting their cause, the same women who would be treated like absolute dirt, by the same mentalists.

They would prolly say it's because they are brown skinned. Because we only like people who reflect all the spectrum of light frequencies.

Let your mind drift a minute.
Imagine there were no dangerous islamists in the world. Simply don't exist. There was never a terrorist attack ever carried out by any islamist ever. it simply didn't exist. There was no fear of importing any to Ireland or Europe, again, it simply wasn't a threat and there was no reason for the people to be fearful or concerned.
How would life be? Would it be nice? Is that something we should strive for and encourage through politicians?

Heck go the whole hog, imagine there was equally no threat or fear for your safety or property as generated by our own ethnic agitators.

What a world it would be.

raclle wrote: »

So what you're really saying is if I go into your house while you're not around its now my house?

I don't know how to work with this bad analogy, but I'll try! If the house (country) is vacant then I guess it's up for grabs. When occupants claim it, they all have a system (democracy) to decide who they can share their home with! They may change their minds multiple times although it would be unfair to kick out those you invited to stay and were born here.

statesaver wrote: »

Irish voters, mainly tax payers were never asked.

We're part of the European Union and we've made agreements. We've voted for our leaders Macron, Merkel, and Enda Kenny. It's not the Muslims' fault. Very ironic the Macron is now turning on them to win vetos! But I guess it's the better of two evils.