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Where are the deaths coming from?

  • 28-09-2020 9:52am
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭


    The official figure we are using for the deaths is currently 1802. According to the HPSC report on 02/09, only 447 cases were admitted to ICU. It is very strange that the number admitted to ICU is only a small fraction of the deaths.

    I don't believe the figures are available, but I do believe that a very good percentage of ICU cases recover? Obviously the number that died in ICU is a lot lower than 447. Does anybody have these stats?

    So it seems like we have about 1500 - 1600 deaths or so that never went to ICU. So where are these cases coming from?

    In the over 65 category, there are 164 that went to ICU and 1658 deaths.
    Is it a case that most of these people were just too sick to go to ICU? For example, a lot of the deaths would have been already suffering from terminal cancer, late stages of COPD, heart disease, Diabetes etc.

    We also test every single person that dies for Covid. The test itself is quite sensitive. Is it a case that already dead people are testing positive and thus included in the figures?

    Of course I know that the government/CMO have admitted to overstating the deaths and including possible/probable in the figures.

    Anybody any thoughts or input? Surely anybody with even a remote chance of survival goes to ICU when there is capacity available? And we've always had capacity.


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Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    .......

    So it seems like we have about 1500 - 1600 deaths or so that never went to ICU. So where are these cases coming from?........

    Nursing homes


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Augeo wrote: »
    Nursing homes

    Probably so. I imagine even a nursing home resident would go to hospital/ICU if they had a chance of survival though?


  • #4
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Probably so. I imagine even a nursing home resident would go to hospital/ICU if they had a chance of survival though?

    Putting someone with an underlying illness, in their 80s, onto a ventilator for the last two weeks of their lives might not be how many people would like to die. Especially when it seems not to help a whole lot


  • #5
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Are they releasing details of the ages of those who die?

    I saw them for a few countries and the average age of people who die of covid is higher than the average age of people who die of everything else. For example, following the same logic as other countries, if the average age of men dying in Ireland is 78, then I would expect to see the average age of men dying of covid to be 82 or so. In other words, people live longer than average if they die of covid....

    I'm not into conspiracy theories but the fact it's so hard to find this information makes me feel there is some dishonesty going on with the data. If it turns out almost no one under 50 dies of this disease, then serious questions need to be asked as to why everyone was forced to stay at home when it should have only been the old and sick.


  • #6
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Augeo wrote: »
    Nursing homes
    Exactly, those with dementia suffer from constant respiratory/chest infections which develops into pneumonia and then death, in other words dying of a covid 'related' illness or 'with' covid.


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  • #7
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I think there is non-invasive vs invasive ventilation. Basically a mask vs a tube down into your lungs. The latter is a tough procedure that is pretty harsh even on a young and otherwise strong person. They found that its not really something you can do to someone old, frail and weak as they're unlikely to recover from that procedure alone.


  • #8
    Budawanny
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭Budawanny


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Probably so. I imagine even a nursing home resident would go to hospital/ICU if they had a chance of survival though?

    Alot of people will have requested a DNR (do not resusitate) , or there families will as per the patients wishes.
    DNR means no ICU.


  • #9
    copeyhagen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭copeyhagen


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Are they releasing details of the ages of those who die?

    I saw them for a few countries and the average age of people who die of covid is higher than the average age of people who die of everything else. For example, following the same logic as other countries, if the average age of men dying in Ireland is 78, then I would expect to see the average age of men dying of covid to be 82 or so. In other words, people live longer than average if they die of covid....

    I'm not into conspiracy theories but the fact it's so hard to find this information makes me feel there is some dishonesty going on with the data. If it turns out almost no one under 50 dies of this disease, then serious questions need to be asked as to why everyone was forced to stay at home when it should have only been the old and sick.

    yeh the hse report had it, 100 people died with no underlying conditions.

    mean age of deaths was 84! that was from a few weeks ago though


  • #10
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,260 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    I think there is non-invasive vs invasive ventilation. Basically a mask vs a tube down into your lungs. The latter is a tough procedure that is pretty harsh even on a young and otherwise strong person. They found that its not really something you can do to someone old, frail and weak as they're unlikely to recover from that procedure alone.

    Ive been told the test itself is similar.

    Rather intelorable


  • #11
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I'm not into conspiracy theories but the fact it's so hard to find this information makes me feel there is some dishonesty going on with the data. If it turns out almost no one under 50 dies of this disease, then serious questions need to be asked as to why everyone was forced to stay at home when it should have only been the old and sick.

    Every time I see something like that I wonder would people say the same if Covid death rates were highest among, say, those under age 15.


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  • #12
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    MOH wrote: »
    Every time I see something like that I wonder would people say the same if Covid death rates were highest among, say, those under age 15.

    It's not the same. Children can't be isolated. Adults can.


  • #13
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    copeyhagen wrote: »
    yeh the hse report had it, 100 people dide with no underlying conditions.

    mean age of deaths was 84! that was from a few weeks ago though

    Why isn't this bigger news?

    The virus is mainly killing people who are a few years older than the average lifespan.

    And these old people can be easily isolated as they don't need to work anymore.

    Yet for some reason the government has decided to destroy the economy, destroy the lives of millions of Irish people, and cause an absolute mass of depression, abuse and addiction problems.


  • #14
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Are they releasing details of the ages of those who die?

    I saw them for a few countries and the average age of people who die of covid is higher than the average age of people who die of everything else. For example, following the same logic as other countries, if the average age of men dying in Ireland is 78, then I would expect to see the average age of men dying of covid to be 82 or so. In other words, people live longer than average if they die of covid....

    I'm not into conspiracy theories but the fact it's so hard to find this information makes me feel there is some dishonesty going on with the data. If it turns out almost no one under 50 dies of this disease, then serious questions need to be asked as to why everyone was forced to stay at home when it should have only been the old and sick.

    Or maybe when things started happening the virus was so new that nobody knew much about it ? Hindsight is great but governments around the world have to take a conservative approach and can't gamble with citizens lives. Its all very well to argue we needn't have done something, but what if we hadn't done it and it turned out we should have ? There'd be the same people calling for heads to roll.

    I dunno, this craic of people thinking there's some vast conspiracy going on or everyone is being lied to by government just doesn't stack up. Why oh why would almost every government in the world crash their economies and fudge death numbers just for the heck of it ?


  • #15
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Russman wrote: »
    Or maybe when things started happening the virus was so new that nobody knew much about it ? Hindsight is great but governments around the world have to take a conservative approach and can't gamble with citizens lives. Its all very well to argue we needn't have done something, but what if we hadn't done it and it turned out we should have ? There'd be the same people calling for heads to roll.

    I dunno, this craic of people thinking there's some vast conspiracy going on or everyone is being lied to by government just doesn't stack up. Why oh why would almost every government in the world crash their economies and fudge death numbers just for the heck of it ?

    Your argument makes sense if we are 6 months ago, but we're not, we know who is affected yet we continue to lock down everyone instead of those at risk.


  • #16
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    It's not the same. Children can't be isolated. Adults can.

    It's exactly the same. Children can be quarantined along with their families.


  • #17
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,347 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Covid 19


  • #18
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Why isn't this bigger news?

    The virus is mainly killing people who are a few years older than the average lifespan.

    And these old people can be easily isolated as they don't need to work anymore.

    Yet for some reason the government has decided to destroy the economy, destroy the lives of millions of Irish people, and cause an absolute mass of depression, abuse and addiction problems.

    How can they be easily isolated ? Maybe just tell them they've reached the age that doesn't matter and joe bloggs would rather have his pints, so sorry guys, its solitary for ye ?

    And do you really think they did this just for sh1ts and giggles ?


  • #19
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    MOH wrote: »
    It's exactly the same. Children can be quarantined along with their families.

    Children need adult supervision. They can't be left alone. They can't cook their food, etc.

    Isolating children is not the same as isolating adults. You know this so please don't double down because you can't admit you made a mistake or refuse to learn something new.


  • #20
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Your argument makes sense if we are 6 months ago, but we're not, we know who is affected yet we continue to lock down everyone instead of those at risk.

    Because you can't cut off a cohort of society, its just not possible.


  • #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MOH wrote: »
    Every time I see something like that I wonder would people say the same if Covid death rates were highest among, say, those under age 15.

    You really can’t compare children dying to 80+ year olds IMO.

    Of course it would be much sadder and more would have to be done to save children.


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  • #22
    copeyhagen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭copeyhagen


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Why isn't this bigger news?

    The virus is mainly killing people who are a few years older than the average lifespan.

    And these old people can be easily isolated as they don't need to work anymore.

    Yet for some reason the government has decided to destroy the economy, destroy the lives of millions of Irish people, and cause an absolute mass of depression, abuse and addiction problems.

    its not bigger news because the pro lockdown crowd have moved the goalposts to being number of cases now, not deaths.


  • #23
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,065 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Are they releasing details of the ages of those who die?

    See here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries12/


  • #24
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Russman wrote: »
    How can they be easily isolated ? Maybe just tell them they've reached the age that doesn't matter and joe bloggs would rather have his pints, so sorry guys, its solitary for ye ?

    And do you really think they did this just for sh1ts and giggles ?

    They did it because they haven't thought it through, they're copying everyone else, and they don't want to be seen as having made a mistake (look at how Sweden is shat on for doing something different).

    Isolating the at risk adults is not that difficult. Just arrange food deliveries, etc.

    And if they don't want to isolate, that should be their decision, but they should understand they are at risk.

    Surely this is a lot smarter than isolating people who have zero chance of dying.


  • #25
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,065 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Are they releasing details of the ages of those who die?


    From a quick glance at the CSO data, everybody who has died since June, with or of COVID-19, has been over 65, and many over 80?


  • #26
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,260 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    MOH wrote: »
    Every time I see something like that I wonder would people say the same if Covid death rates were highest among, say, those under age 15.

    No, because they havent reached the end of their natural lives like most Covid victims.

    You cannot suggest a nursing home death, or any deaths around the age of 84 could be compared to a 15 year old dying.


  • #27
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Certain groups of people are more likely to get HIV, so they are given PrEP, a drug which can prevent HIV transmission.

    It wouldn't make sense to force everyone in Ireland to take this drug as their risk of getting HIV is tiny.

    So why force a healthy 25 year old to stay at home and lose his job?


  • #28
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,065 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    28% of deaths = age 65-79
    65% of deaths = aged over 80


    7% under age 65


  • #29
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    MOH wrote: »
    It's exactly the same. Children can be quarantined along with their families.
    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Children need adult supervision. They can't be left alone. They can't cook their food, etc.

    Isolating children is not the same as isolating adults. You know this so please don't double down because you can't admit you made a mistake or refuse to learn something new.

    What part of along with their families did you not understand?
    Or are you just deliberately ignoring that bit because you can't admit you made a mistake or refuse to learn something new?

    Anyway, your point is fairly clear. Old people are worthless so let them die alone rather than inconvenience you. One can only hope you'll experience that yourself eventually.


  • #30
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    MOH wrote: »
    What part of along with their families did you not understand?
    Or are you just deliberately ignoring that bit because you can't admit you made a mistake or refuse to learn something new?

    Anyway, your point is fairly clear. Old people are worthless so let them die alone rather than inconvenience you. One can only hope you'll experience that yourself eventually.

    Ah yes, because I think old people should be isolated and protected, that means I think they're worthless and they should die alone.

    What is wrong with you? Are you able to think at all?

    And stop with the fantasy that it's children who are at risk.


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  • #31
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Isolation, regardless of food deliveries has a very detrimental effect on the mental health of many older people.

    You can be damn sure if it was under 30s dying of something, the older brigade would do all in their power to protect them.


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