Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Bigboldworld · 28-09-2020 10:32AM

ixoy wrote: »

I was in St. Anne's that weekend and the previous. It's well laid out and most people are very good at separating out. Certainly saw a few wearing masks in queues as well as the vendors themselves. I thought it was a great set up as it allowed people to enjoy a range of food, and products, outside with plenty of space to sit afterwards.

I’m not sure if you were in the same area of the park as me however I was in a slow moving q for the stables, nobody in the q was wearing a mask, all less than a few feet apart, surely that could not be deemed a good setup, surely that should be deemed as a large gathering with a mix of probably 20 households, yet nobody bats an eyelid, no enforcement of putting your mask on, I was genuinely saddened and it just brought it home to me that we are f’ d and that the majority do not listen, after 15 minutes I left. I was last on this thread in April and there was great unity now it’s the predictable back and forth bickering all the while the virus runs rampant again, a complete sh*t show, I’m out anyway no point getting into arguments, waste of energy, stay well all.

ArthurDayne · 28-09-2020 10:42AM

kippy wrote: »

We have been loosening resteictions for months now.
What is happening? Cases are increasing.
Why haven't deaths been increasing so far? Because most of the cases are in younger age groups.
What happens as cases continue to rise through community/unknown vectors? It is inevitable that older people will get this and die.
Why are cases rising? Because now enough people are following public health guidance.
Why will restrictions be reimposed. See laser sentence.(don't give people the option)

Could the state do more? Yes..testing and contact tracing is not where it needs to be.
More hospital beds and ICI beds could.have come on stream in the past 6 months.. not msny but a few.
The state politicians could have also chosen to lead by example.
And we have the issues back in March around nursing homes that could have been handled better.
But we are where we are. The irony I have seen this weekend locally is the rush of people to 'do a few things in town before restrictions are reintroduced'

This science is simple on stopping the spread.

All fair enough, but if we stop the spread, then gradually re-open....isn’t a rise in cases again inevitable?

If one was being cynical, you could say the government is playing a blinder in carefully ensuring that any failure of the policy is blamed on the people themselves, with the narrative having been cultivated that to question the policy is to advocate the death of old people. Keep the people blaming each other and they are less likely to question the strategy itself — and those that do question it can be neatly categorised into either the cold-hearted capitalists column or the crackpot column.

Flatten the curve >> re-open the country >> cases inevitably rise >> blame the people for being stupid >> impose restrictions again >> repeat. Is that the nature of our strategy? And if so, how long can that really be sustained?

topper75 · 28-09-2020 10:44AM

average_runner wrote: »

Nope, just under control.

I've noticed that a few other pro-restriction posters on here use this term quite a bit. But it is vague beyond understanding. Is there a national number of infections involved, a per county number? If so, then we can just quarantine the sick - just as we always did through history.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 28-09-2020 10:45AM

At rehe end of the day we keep forgetting that the relaxation of restrictions need people to avoid risky behaviour. If people don't one or two big spreading events is probably enough to make us bring restrictions again.

It's going to be a cycle between restrictions and less restrictions until we get a vaccine.

hayoc · 28-09-2020 10:46AM

doireann08 wrote: »

whats the story with gyms? Thought they were only open for 1:1 tuition. Passed by one earlier ( its above my local shop). They were holding classes.

No - they are open for individual training only - as in, I can go to the gym by myself to work out by myself (as opposed to going to a class).

They are still holding school kids swim club meets in my gym (Dublin), but no classes at level 3 as far as I know.

robbiezero · 28-09-2020 10:50AM

Bigboldworld wrote: »

I’m not sure if you were in the same area of the park as me however I was in a slow moving q for the stables, nobody in the q was wearing a mask, all less than a few feet apart, surely that could not be deemed a good setup, surely that should be deemed as a large gathering with a mix of probably 20 households, yet nobody bats an eyelid, no enforcement of putting your mask on, I was genuinely saddened and it just brought it home to me that we are f’ d and that the majority do not listen, after 15 minutes I left. I was last on this thread in April and there was great unity now it’s the predictable back and forth bickering all the while the virus runs rampant again, a complete sh*t show, I’m out anyway no point getting into arguments, waste of energy, stay well all.

There is no requirement for masks for outdoor queuing I would have thought.
That queue for coffee or ice-cream is quite well set up and monitored. They only let a certain amount in the gate so that the queue doesn't overflow.

adocholiday · 28-09-2020 10:57AM

Just reading online about the potential for locking down some more counties including Wicklow. I can only speak for Wicklow on this but the county-level restriction is absolutely daft. The vast majority of cases in Wicklow (as per the official figures) are in Bray. Basically everywhere in Wicklow south of Bray has numbers on par with other counties. So they're going to punish people in places like Blessington and Arklow with a lockdown for no real reason. The same can be said for Dublin and Donegal and I'm sure for the other counties potentially subject to lockdown this week. I think if they really want people to buy into lockdowns and get on board with it they need to implement them at a much more granular level. Stopping people going from Arklow to Gorey isn't going to make a jot of impact to Wicklow's numbers, it will just frustrate people further and reduce compliance with the restrictions overall.

average_runner · 28-09-2020 10:57AM

topper75 wrote: »

I've noticed that a few other pro-restriction posters on here use this term quite a bit. But it is vague beyond understanding. Is there a national number of infections involved, a per county number? If so, then we can just quarantine the sick - just as we always did through history.

I am not pro lockdown but i am not pro just do whatever we want and feck every one else either.

Do you mean Mandatory quarantine by the government and not the isolation we have now?

average_runner · 28-09-2020 10:59AM

adocholiday wrote: »

Just reading online about the potential for locking down some more counties including Wicklow. I can only speak for Wicklow on this but the county-level restriction is absolutely daft. The vast majority of cases in Wicklow (as per the official figures) are in Bray. Basically everywhere in Wicklow south of Bray has numbers on par with other counties. So they're going to punish people in places like Blessington and Arklow with a lockdown for no real reason. The same can be said for Dublin and Donegal and I'm sure for the other counties potentially subject to lockdown this week. I think if they really want people to buy into lockdowns and get on board with it they need to implement them at a much more granular level. Stopping people going from Arklow to Gorey isn't going to make a jot of impact to Wicklow's numbers, it will just frustrate people further and reduce compliance with the restrictions overall.

Not sure they want us to buy into lockdowns, I believe they want us to control our own environment and will continue to do lockdowns until will we learn

adocholiday · 28-09-2020 11:14AM

average_runner wrote: »

Not sure they want us to buy into lockdowns, I believe they want us to control our own environment and will continue to do lockdowns will we learn

But it's clear that people being placed under lockdown in places like Bundoran are incredibly frustrated and disillusioned because of a spike in cases in Lifford. It's not a fair or sustainable approach.

Just as an example but my local pub reopened here last week. The publican remained closed until the reopening of 'wet pubs' and has all of the screens etc. in place and has enforced all limitations since the reopening. It's a tiny pub and even pre-Covid there'd rarely be more than a handful of people in there at any given time. Now he may have to close up again because of spikes in Bray about 40 minutes from where I live. This of course applies to restaurants and pubs all around Wicklow. It's just incredibly unfair.

hamburgham · 28-09-2020 11:30AM

Reading one of those emigrant’s experience pieces in the Irish Times, this is an Irish woman living in Madrid, dated 24 September 2020

“Considering we have the highest numbers of infections in Europe, Madrid is surprisingly running business as usual. Some areas have been put into regional lockdowns, but they tend to be in areas outside the city centre. Everyone here wears masks when they are out and about, but they don’t tend to take social distancing measures as importantly as we do. Most bars and restaurants remain busy with terraces full throughout the week, but everything closes down at 1pm for the night. In Madrid it feels like we just have to get on with things and learn to live with the virus.”

Life proceeding. Hello Stephen Donnelly? RTE? Pat Kenny?

average_runner · 28-09-2020 11:31AM

adocholiday wrote: »

But it's clear that people being placed under lockdown in places like Bundoran are incredibly frustrated and disillusioned because of a spike in cases in Lifford. It's not a fair or sustainable approach.

Just as an example but my local pub reopened here last week. The publican remained closed until the reopening of 'wet pubs' and has all of the screens etc. in place and has enforced all limitations since the reopening. It's a tiny pub and even pre-Covid there'd rarely be more than a handful of people in there at any given time. Now he may have to close up again because of spikes in Bray about 40 minutes from where I live. This of course applies to restaurants and pubs all around Wicklow. It's just incredibly unfair.

Sadly life is not fair either.

Maybe the rest of Wicklow need to send a message to Bray.
I am in lockdown in Dublin, had limited contacts, avoided unnecessary areas.

Some where down the line will learn, but we are slow learners in Ireland

Ginger n Lemon · 28-09-2020 11:39AM

average_runner wrote: »

I am not pro lockdown but i am not pro just do whatever we want and feck every one else either.

Do you mean Mandatory quarantine by the government and not the isolation we have now?

Welcome to the real world.

Why do you think there are so many homeless people dying on streets every week? Why do you think we have over 10,000 + people on trolleys waiting for hospital treatment for months on end?

Because majority of people, including politicians have caring attitude? Lets save everybody? :rolleyes:

average_runner · 28-09-2020 11:45AM

hamburgham wrote: »

Reading one of those emigrant’s experience pieces in the Irish Times, this is an Irish woman living in Madrid, dated 24 September 2020

“Considering we have the highest numbers of infections in Europe, Madrid is surprisingly running business as usual. Some areas have been put into regional lockdowns, but they tend to be in areas outside the city centre. Everyone here wears masks when they are out and about, but they don’t tend to take social distancing measures as importantly as we do. Most bars and restaurants remain busy with terraces full throughout the week, but everything closes down at 1pm for the night. In Madrid it feels like we just have to get on with things and learn to live with the virus.”

Life proceeding. Hello Stephen Donnelly? RTE? Pat Kenny?

Current restrictions for madrid
"

Residents are only allowed to enter and exit the zones on work, educational, legal or medical grounds.
Residents may move freely around their zones but may not step outside the perimeter without a legitimate reason. Police officers will carry out daily checks in the affected areas to ensure these restrictions are respected.
Churches, mosques and synagogues must reduce their capacity to one third. Funeral services may be held with a maximum of 15 mourners outdoors and 10 indoors.
Shops must reduce their capacity to 50% and bring their closing time forward to 10pm (except chemists’, health centres, vets, petrol stations and other shops regarded as essential).
Restaurants, bars and cafés are no longer allowed to serve at the bar and must reduce capacity to 50%. They must close at 10pm, except if they are providing home delivery services.
Academies and driving schools must also reduce their capacity to 50% and groups attending lessons may not exceed 6 people.
Both indoor and outdoor sports facilities remain open although their capacity is reduced to 50% and the groups are limited to 6 people.
Parks remain closed."

Number of areas in restrictions zone
"n the city of Madrid, the affected health areas are located in the city districts of Carabanchel (the health areas of Puerta Bonita, Vista Alegre and Guayaba), Usera (Almendrales, Las Calesas, Zofío, Orcasitas, Orcasur and San Fermín), Villaverde (San Andrés, San Cristóbal, El Espinillo and Los Rosales), Villa de Vallecas, Puente de Vallecas (Entrevías, Martínez de la Riva, San Diego, Numancia, Peña Prieta, Pozo del Tío Raimundo, Ángela Uriarte, Alcalá de Guadaira, Campo de la Paloma, Rafael Alberti and Federica Montseny), Vicálvaro (Vicálvaro-Artilleros) and Ciudad Lineal (Doctor Cirajas, García Noblejas, Ghandi, Daroca and La Elipa). The affected municipalities besides the capital are Fuenlabrada (the health areas of Alicante, Cuzco, Panaderas and Francia), Parla (San Blas and Isabel II), San Sebastián de los Reyes (Reyes Católicos), Getafe (Las Margaritas and Sánchez Morate), Alcobendas (Chopera and Miraflores), Alcorcón (Miguel Servet and Doctor Trueta) and the entire towns of Humanes and Moraleja de Enmedio."

Now how many Irish would you think would obey the zone rule since we can't obey the county rule right now?

average_runner · 28-09-2020 11:46AM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Welcome to the real world.

Why do you think there are so many homeless people dying on streets every week? Why do you think we have over 10,000 + people on trolleys waiting for hospital treatment for months on end?

Because majority of people, including politicians have caring attitude? Lets save everybody? :rolleyes:

Well if everyone paid tax that would help. If we cut the dole payment after 12 months that would help.

But we don't, we love to give free houses away, free benefits away to people that are just a drain on our society

Plumbthedepths · 28-09-2020 11:47AM

average_runner wrote: »

Current restrictions for madrid
"
Residents are only allowed to enter and exit the zones on work, educational, legal or medical grounds.

Residents may move freely around their zones but may not step outside the perimeter without a legitimate reason. Police officers will carry out daily checks in the affected areas to ensure these restrictions are respected.

Churches, mosques and synagogues must reduce their capacity to one third. Funeral services may be held with a maximum of 15 mourners outdoors and 10 indoors.

Shops must reduce their capacity to 50% and bring their closing time forward to 10pm (except chemists’, health centres, vets, petrol stations and other shops regarded as essential).

Restaurants, bars and cafés are no longer allowed to serve at the bar and must reduce capacity to 50%. They must close at 10pm, except if they are providing home delivery services.

Academies and driving schools must also reduce their capacity to 50% and groups attending lessons may not exceed 6 people.

Both indoor and outdoor sports facilities remain open although their capacity is reduced to 50% and the groups are limited to 6 people.

Parks remain closed."

Number of areas in restrictions zone
"n the city of Madrid, the affected health areas are located in the city districts of Carabanchel (the health areas of Puerta Bonita, Vista Alegre and Guayaba), Usera (Almendrales, Las Calesas, Zofío, Orcasitas, Orcasur and San Fermín), Villaverde (San Andrés, San Cristóbal, El Espinillo and Los Rosales), Villa de Vallecas, Puente de Vallecas (Entrevías, Martínez de la Riva, San Diego, Numancia, Peña Prieta, Pozo del Tío Raimundo, Ángela Uriarte, Alcalá de Guadaira, Campo de la Paloma, Rafael Alberti and Federica Montseny), Vicálvaro (Vicálvaro-Artilleros) and Ciudad Lineal (Doctor Cirajas, García Noblejas, Ghandi, Daroca and La Elipa). The affected municipalities besides the capital are Fuenlabrada (the health areas of Alicante, Cuzco, Panaderas and Francia), Parla (San Blas and Isabel II), San Sebastián de los Reyes (Reyes Católicos), Getafe (Las Margaritas and Sánchez Morate), Alcobendas (Chopera and Miraflores), Alcorcón (Miguel Servet and Doctor Trueta) and the entire towns of Humanes and Moraleja de Enmedio."

Now how many Irish would you think would obey the zone rule since we can't obey the county rule right now?

Your constant moaning about other Irish people makes me wonder why you haven't emigrated. Surely there is a Nirvana somewhere in the world where everyone follows every rule without failure, that you could happily relocate to ?

polesheep · 28-09-2020 11:47AM

average_runner wrote: »

Sadly life is not fair either.

Maybe the rest of Wicklow need to send a message to Bray.
I am in lockdown in Dublin, had limited contacts, avoided unnecessary areas.

Some where down the line will learn, but we are slow learners in Ireland

I have never met anyone as condescending towards their own people as you are. You are also like the bad teacher who punishes the whole class for the behaviour of one errant child. I sincerely hope that you are not in a position of control over other people's lives.

polesheep · 28-09-2020 11:49AM

average_runner wrote: »

Well if everyone paid tax that would help. If we cut the dole payment after 12 months that would help.

But we don't, we love to give free houses away, free benefits away to people that are just a drain on our society

Ah, I see now. Over and out.

Don't Chute! · 28-09-2020 11:50AM

average_runner wrote: »

Nope, just under control. We have other treatments on going in the hospitals and we don't want them to stop again.

People would like to visit their parents in nursing homes and maybe take them out for a few hours.

If we can learn to live and control the virus we can go back to normal.

Right now we are heading for a total lockdown in a month or so.

Its in our own hands on what happens

Total lockdown?
Is that what’s going to happen or is it what you WANT to happen? Because they are two wildly different things.

snowcat · 28-09-2020 12:01PM

average_runner wrote: »

Current restrictions for madrid
"
Residents are only allowed to enter and exit the zones on work, educational, legal or medical grounds.

Residents may move freely around their zones but may not step outside the perimeter without a legitimate reason. Police officers will carry out daily checks in the affected areas to ensure these restrictions are respected.

Churches, mosques and synagogues must reduce their capacity to one third. Funeral services may be held with a maximum of 15 mourners outdoors and 10 indoors.

Shops must reduce their capacity to 50% and bring their closing time forward to 10pm (except chemists’, health centres, vets, petrol stations and other shops regarded as essential).

Restaurants, bars and cafés are no longer allowed to serve at the bar and must reduce capacity to 50%. They must close at 10pm, except if they are providing home delivery services.

Academies and driving schools must also reduce their capacity to 50% and groups attending lessons may not exceed 6 people.

Both indoor and outdoor sports facilities remain open although their capacity is reduced to 50% and the groups are limited to 6 people.

Parks remain closed."

Number of areas in restrictions zone
"n the city of Madrid, the affected health areas are located in the city districts of Carabanchel (the health areas of Puerta Bonita, Vista Alegre and Guayaba), Usera (Almendrales, Las Calesas, Zofío, Orcasitas, Orcasur and San Fermín), Villaverde (San Andrés, San Cristóbal, El Espinillo and Los Rosales), Villa de Vallecas, Puente de Vallecas (Entrevías, Martínez de la Riva, San Diego, Numancia, Peña Prieta, Pozo del Tío Raimundo, Ángela Uriarte, Alcalá de Guadaira, Campo de la Paloma, Rafael Alberti and Federica Montseny), Vicálvaro (Vicálvaro-Artilleros) and Ciudad Lineal (Doctor Cirajas, García Noblejas, Ghandi, Daroca and La Elipa). The affected municipalities besides the capital are Fuenlabrada (the health areas of Alicante, Cuzco, Panaderas and Francia), Parla (San Blas and Isabel II), San Sebastián de los Reyes (Reyes Católicos), Getafe (Las Margaritas and Sánchez Morate), Alcobendas (Chopera and Miraflores), Alcorcón (Miguel Servet and Doctor Trueta) and the entire towns of Humanes and Moraleja de Enmedio."

Now how many Irish would you think would obey the zone rule since we can't obey the county rule right now?

Believe you me they are not obeying it in Madrid either.

Zebra3 · 28-09-2020 12:02PM

average_runner wrote: »

Well if everyone paid tax that would help. If we cut the dole payment after 12 months that would help.

But we don't, we love to give free houses away, free benefits away to people that are just a drain on our society

Don't forget to mention the payrise for our politicians as the state's finances hit the floor.

average_runner · 28-09-2020 12:02PM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

Total lockdown?
Is that what’s going to happen or is it what you WANT to happen? Because they are two wildly different things.

Already said i am against lockdown

topper75 · 28-09-2020 12:02PM

average_runner wrote: »

Do you mean Mandatory quarantine by the government and not the isolation we have now?

I would say, despite holding individual freedom very dearly, that the government would have some moral authority to enforce something like a 7-day quarantine on people who present with symptoms and test positive. Restrictions or quarantine of the healthy has no moral authority. It is blunt. It is awkward. And next year we will learn just how bloody expensive it is. As just mentioned, punishing all of Wicklow for a Bray outbreak - insane. We saw this as well too with Stranorlar in Donegal - no justification for upsetting the lives of those in Glenties or Inisowen. Achieves precisely nothing and at considerable cost. But bureaucrats simply don't do imagination. They see the big arbitrary Elizabethan boundary and rule on that. We have a political problem now in Ireland and it seeps welll beyond the Oireachtas into many levels of the public service.

average_runner · 28-09-2020 12:03PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't forget to mention the payrise for our politicians as the state's finances hit the floor.

Very true

28-09-2020 12:52PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

With our young population and island location we were the best placed country in Europe to deal with Covid - we will come out of it most likely the worst.

This hyperbolic nonsense is as bad as the "Full lockdown now!!!!" crowd. There have been more than 30k deaths in at least four EU countries. That's the same as the population of Navan.....gone forever in 7 or 8 months. There are only 15 towns and cities in the whole of Ireland with bigger populations than that. #

Saying we'll come out worse than these countries is a disgraceful thing to say.

3xh · 28-09-2020 01:11PM

I know this is Scotland but to be fair, Sturgeon has led a very strict and pro-restriction policy throughout this. Even usurping Westminster at times before they too follow suit.

Here is what she said today. You’d almost think she’s disappointed to see these figures.

<<<A further 222 coronavirus infections in Scotland

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, speaking at her daily news conference, says a further 222 cases of COVID-19 were reported in Scotland yesterday.

"I do want to immediately add a note of caution around these figures," Ms Sturgeon says.
"As you will have spotted, 222 is the lowest number of cases we have seen for some time and, to be frank with you, this is a lower number than we would have expected to see today.
"It is likely to be a 'weekend effect', indeed reported cases on a Monday... are often lower than on other days.
"Just to be sure I have asked Public Health Scotland to check there are no other issues that may have impacted on the reporting of the figure.">>>

If someone had the previous weekend drop effects, I’d love to see how out of kilter this weekend is compared to those ones.

average_runner · 28-09-2020 01:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This hyperbolic nonsense is as bad as the "Full lockdown now!!!!" crowd. There have been more than 30k deaths in at least four EU countries. That's the same as the population of Navan.....gone forever in 7 or 8 months. There are only 15 towns and cities in the whole of Ireland with bigger populations than that. #

Saying we'll come out worse than these countries is a disgraceful thing to say.

Even more importantly, how many of the young poplulation live with their mums and dads?

Assetbacked · 28-09-2020 01:28PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This hyperbolic nonsense is as bad as the "Full lockdown now!!!!" crowd. There have been more than 30k deaths in at least four EU countries. That's the same as the population of Navan.....gone forever in 7 or 8 months. There are only 15 towns and cities in the whole of Ireland with bigger populations than that. #

Saying we'll come out worse than these countries is a disgraceful thing to say.

We're only looking at an annual death rate of under 700 in the post-lockdown (ie since May) period to May 2021. So of course we aren't looking as bad as other countries.

In other countries and even at EU level there is talk of the ongoing recovery but in Ireland we have not even started our recovery process yet, this is where we'll unnecessarily take a bigger chunk out of the economy than we need to, moreso than other countries.

Idbatterim · 28-09-2020 01:44PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Every single person I have spoken too in the last few weeks has said exactly this . People are disgusted with the HSE with tje lack of progress over the summer

two booms, endless money and its still a shambles! How can any one, have any faith in the farcical morons in every area, that are presiding over this shambles? in HSE, civil servants, politicians etc! pre covid, its this lot of fools on current affairs every night for decades, discussing the same failures!

28-09-2020 03:02PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

We're only looking at an annual death rate of under 700 in the post-lockdown (ie since May) period to May 2021. So of course we aren't looking as bad as other countries.

In other countries and even at EU level there is talk of the ongoing recovery but in Ireland we have not even started our recovery process yet, this is where we'll unnecessarily take a bigger chunk out of the economy than we need to, moreso than other countries.

Couple of points on this:

- "only" 700 is two people per day, every day of the week for a year (with only one on Sundays)
- if two people per day were dying in any other aspect of society, there'd be uproar (and rightly so.....for reference, the highest number of road fatalities in the history of the state was 640 in 1972)
- I'm not sure where you got that 700 figure from, but May was only 4 months ago. This annual figure has 8 months worth of guesstimation built into it and 4 months of real data
- It was also 3 weeks into May before lockdown was lifted to level one and 14 weeks total before level 5 was reached
- So, the 700 figure is based off 3.5 months of the entire country on some form of lockdown, 0.5 months where the largest population centre was still on some form of lockdown, and 8 months of projections based off those data sets
- Surely even the most fervent advocate for the easing of restrictions can see that there is an issue with using lockdown stats to predict non-lockdown figures?
- What people are suggesting here is abandoning precautions in favour of the economy, at a cost of 2 people dying per day, and that is acceptable to some?
- That 700 figure is gonna be well short of the mark, in my opinion, if we take our foot off the brakes
- Other countries have a limitless amount of other factors which need to be borne into account (huge numbers working in hospitality sector, lack of proper social welfare systems, seasonal nature of sunny climates, state of the economy pre-Covid, etc.)
- We're lucky enough to be in a position where most of those don't apply, at least not to the same degree
- So, a slow and steady approach is the prudent option (again, in my opinion)

There are a huge amount of points where our response could have been better. There is an even bigger number where it could have been worse. It's not that long ago we were looking at 14-15 pages of death notices in Italian newspapers, lets not forget. Any time we've had a chance to prove our maturity, certain sections of society have proven they're willing to do whatever the fcuk they want, whenever they want, and consequences be damned (see Oliver Bond, the landlord in Cork, Anti-mask protests, BLM protests, that house in Waterford etc).

If people were willing to follow the rules, there'd be fewer rules. They aren't, so the powers that be are going to impose stricter rules. It is all our own fault.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings